I mean that too - if this thread becomes some hot bed argument, I am sorry for starting it, but like with most posts I make I'm only starting it because the topic is weighing heavy on my mind or I'm genuinely interested in a rational discussion about it.

So I've been thinking a lot about how my life has been so far and how many people have thrown the, "mental disorder" thing in my face (and now a "trend" thing as well) and I wanted to address that but also the many other things that I and I'm sure others here have had to address, question or otherwise deal with in life so far.

I went straight to the source (a "dirty" blog I think most people are familiar with) to get a "good" list and I'm just going to go through each thing on this list and address it and why it does or does not apply to me.

I'm doing this because I'm the type that needs to write out ->-bleeped-<- that's bothering me and I do hope that this doesn't start some argument and that other people here can relate to what I've typed.

So here we go ... it's starts with a comment like this: "I think we need to continue to examine and counteract the social factors that drive this trend in young women" (the "trend" of course is being trans)

1. The assumption that everyone who identifies as male, who was born into a female body is just a confused young women.

I've never been a young women. To me, that is the lie - not the other way around. Also, I happen to be a "genetic mutant" (sure, why not ... that's probably language that's been used to describe me behind closed doctor's doors anyway) and don't have a "normal" female physique so I find blanket statement like this particularly ignorant (no, I'm not even offended anymore - but I'm upset that variation on the female or male body or brain can't be seen as acceptable or is flat out ignored)

2. the valuing of maleness over femaleness

To me personally, this is a great illustration of, "missing the point". I've never valued maleness over femaleness in general terms, in society, in social settings, in just about anything really. Even in my own body it's not a "value". I accept what I got ... doesn't mean I always like it ... and it definitely doesn't mean it matches up with my brain ... but to say I value maleness over femaleness is just way off base. I wholeheartedly appreciate both genders AND everything in between.

3. invisibility of role models

This never applied to me. I've had solid role models of both men and women in my personal life (I'm not counting anyone I might have "looked up to" that I didn't know personally). From my parents (who are actually still married after over 40 years), to teachers, to peers, I've had plenty of role models. To quote the interwebz, "your argument is invalid".

4. body dysphoria

I will have to say yes to this one - with a qualifier: I accepted a long time ago that some things were never going to physically meet my expectations, but I've also since accepted that this was okay and did not change the person I was. I was a pretty happy kid up until about age 11 actually. I knew I was different from other kids but my parents allowed me to be the person I was. However, at age 11 my mom started scheduling doctors appointments for me. I was told they were just routine check ups. What was actually happening is that my mom was worried that I would have a problem passing as FEMALE. Right before puberty really kicked in I was given estrogen. I didn't understand what was really going on. It's a sore topic for me and admittedly why I actually hate most doctors to this day. It was the start and the cause of almost all my dysphoria and problems with not only my gender identity but just problems across the board. Try having tits and a "boner" at the same time in a high school class and you can see where that would cause a hell of a lot of turmoil. But I am just one variation on a scale with many and to be dismissed with the broad stoke of the "gender dysphoria" brush kinda still bothers me too.

5. self-harm (and the relationship of this to other forms of self-harm such as cutting and anorexia)

My self harm days included much alcohol and a few drugs. I was put on Xanax by one psychologist who determined that, yup, "gender dysphoria" was the root of all my problems and if I could just be chemically happy then all those silly thoughts would just go away. Well, they didn't. They got worse and when the happy pills didn't work I self medicated. Looking back, what I was unhappy about was being told I was mentally ill and not "normal". It was only when I came to the realization that was something someone labeled me with that actually wasn't correct or true I was able to get out of the tailspin of self medicating/self-harming. My lessons out of that era - "pills are bad m'kaay" and don't let someone else tell you what is in your own mind.

6. peer pressure

This one I actually don't understand. Peer pressure to be a gender that you're not (either physically or mentally)? There is such a thing? Hell in high school the only kids that accepted me were the goths - and the dudes all wore more make up than the girls. There was no "pressure" to become something else. I love those goth kids, they seriously got me through some ->-bleeped-<- and opened my eyes to the fact that there actually are people out there who don't give a hoot about how another person choose to "identify" themselves. What I assume (and yes, I know assuming can sometimes be dead wrong) is that this is in reference somehow to the FTM community. Although, I've been here awhile and I don't see any peer pressure going on.

7. internalized misogyny (and in some cases internalized homophobia)

This one is probably my favorite! "The hatred of women by men" ... I don't hate any gender. I have actually hated individuals. I'm human. It happens. Gender played no part in my hatred (and for the record, you have to do something pretty extreme to get me TO hate you). So really I don't even feel the need to discuss that one further because it really does not apply to me in any way. The internalized homophobia? Also amusing to me since dun dun dun ... I'm bisexual. Surprise. Not.

8. not wanting to grow up into the expected female social role

Oh here's another good one. And yes, I'm obviously getting a little more sarcastic here because honestly I'm really reaching to apply some of these to my personal life. First of all, the "expected female social role" also has a lot of variation to it - especially in the year 2010. There are female fighter pilots and female race car drivers and female lumber jacks ... I could go on and on. This statement is something that I would expect of a 1950's mindset, or a weird religious sect, or just someone that's not acknowledging that females can basically play any role they want now. I think that's a beautiful thing. I encourage that. If I ever had a daughter, I would tell her that she can be anything she wants to be in life. 'Nuff said on that one.

9. not identifying with the images of women they see in the culture

I could go way off the rails on this one - one example being marketing. I'll keep it short. Marketing plays a huge role in the images women (and men) see. For instance, women's magazines are filled with "perfect" models whose bodies, hair and make up all seem to be flawless (there's this thing called PHOTOSHOP - eh I digress ...) and this is the image that is supposedly "right" for women ... it's the "goal" they should want to attain. There are toy manufacturers dressing girl baby dolls in hooker gear and sticking them on a stripper pole. What kind of messages are being sent to girls and young women (really women of any age of you look at some of these magazines)? Honestly, if I really were female inside and out I would absolutely reject these stylized, objectified, misrepresented images of women in our "culture". Wait a minute ... I absolutely reject them anyway! Because they're part of what is perpetuating lies about gender in our culture ... the same way marketing that every man should love football, beer and big-titted blondes or else they must be gay is perpetuating the same kind of b.s.

10. escaping into a fantasy world of yaoi because the real world sucks

This yaoi really seems to be getting a bad wrap lately. I only am vaguely aware of it. But you can easily take yaoi out of the sentence and it would simply be "escaping into a fantasy world because the real world sucks". Who doesn't have fantasies? Seriously if you don't have fantasies I really feel that you should check into them now and again and enrich your life in that respect. I have been accused of "escaping" into fantasies. Playing Left 4 Dead all night with your buds online though isn't a fantasy though I do a lot of writing (I bet you couldn't tell from the amount I write in posts! haha) and a lot of it is fantasy writing and I consider it a creative outlet more than an escape. But I will stand up for anyone into yaoi, cosplay, fanfic, furries, whatever - if it makes you happy and it doesn't hurt someone else, go for it.

AND the last one ...

11. wanting to be a gay man or a straight man in order to avoid being a female in a relationship

I'm not really sure on this one either. I've tried lots of things in relationships because I was under the impression that by trying things was the only way you could find out what really floats your boat. This "wanting to be a gay man" or whatever they're talking about here to avoid being a "female in a relationship" I just can't relate to at all. I guess this goes back to #8 or #7 or #2 or something? Is it referring to "being a female in a relationship" to somehow being submissive? Being penetrated? Being impregnated? I can't quite determine this one. I guess it could be a lot of those things. I dunno. Obviously doesn't apply to me either.

So at best, out of this list of 11 main points here possibly 2 might apply to me in round about ways or for very specific reasons.

I just needed to get that all out there. Some of you might relate, some of you might argue, many of you won't say anything. It's all good. Thankfully this place providing a outlet where all of those things can happen and I can spend an hour just typing out something that's on my mind.

No need for apology man. I'm glad to see you standing up and talking in a way I'm too much of a coward to do. You're posts lately have been thoughtful and inspiring. I also follow a certain frustrating blog because they say it's always better to see all sides before deciding what is right for yourself. Besides, I love a good debate. Only one of those things I want to comment on because like you, I don't really fit with any of them.

Quote from: insideontheoutside on November 18, 2010, 12:37:41 AM11. wanting to be a gay man or a straight man in order to avoid being a female in a relationship   

In my previous relationship things were great before I came out to her except that I was in denial, upset, and lying to myself. Being a female in the relationship probably would have been better for that relationship. Turned out she was a nut job on so many different levels so even if I wasn't glad about finally being myself I'd be glad to be away from it. But when I see that and think back about my ex I had to laugh because in my case it was so incredibly opposite. 

yep your post makes a lot of sense.. when other people.. *ahem* do not.

Great post!

This is a great post.   Here's my responses to these:

1. The assumption that everyone who identifies as male, who was born into a female body is just a confused young women.

Yes, I was a confused young woman for many years.  Now I am no longer confused and no longer consider myself to be a woman.  This is the only time in my life I have been >90% certain of who I actually am.  I feel settled at last. 

2. the valuing of maleness over femaleness

I don't.  I just prefer "maleness" when referring to myself.  I tried out some pretty effective "femaleness" for many years and enjoyed many parts of it.  But it just didn't fit my identity. 

3. invisibility of role models

Sure most of my role models have been male, but to say the female influences in my life are invisible is pretty harsh.  I don't think my Mum or Grandma would like to be considered invisible thanks!  Neither would LeSage from Dinotopia ... but now I'm just being silly    (She was my role model for a year or so though!)

4. body dysphoria

Yeah, I have to deal with this.  Being trans is a bummer right?   

5. self-harm (and the relationship of this to other forms of self-harm such as cutting and anorexia)

Yes, I used to self harm ... but haven't since I began my transition and have never done so for reasons to do with gender either.  (The main reasons I ever self harmed were because of stress and feeling helpless - and low self esteem). 

6. peer pressure

Like insideontheoutside I don't get it.  Why would someone be pressured into being trans?  More likely to be pressured OUT of it right 

7. internalized misogyny (and in some cases internalized homophobia)

I am not a misogynist.  I'm just a guy.  I would love to live in a world in which males/females/trans/androgyns could all get along in perfect equality.  I am also gay - definately not homophobic!

8. not wanting to grow up into the expected female social role

True, I don't want to grow into the stereotypical female role.  I also can't function in a relationship as "the female" and the thought of growing old female was the last straw on choosing to transition ...  Saying that though, I wouldn't change gender just because I thought men would want me to bear their kids and do their housework if I was in a relationship with one as a woman ...  I know a lot of strong women who blow those "social roles" out of the sky.  And so they should.  Nothing I hate more than a stereotype...

9. not identifying with the images of women they see in the culture

Very much agreed with what insideontheoutside said.  But at the same time I did used to look up to those images of women and wanted to be like that.  I enjoyed the fashion and the hair/makeup.  It was good.  What wasn't good was then that I had to be a girl in a relationship, in bed, out at the shops, at work, 24/7.  At that point the dressing up and looking good stopped being fun and started about me having to be a woman.  I think that's the difference for me - I literally can not live as the type of woman I actually wanted to be.  How frustrating is that?  When it comes down to it, I  can't help it.  I'm not a woman and I am not going to deny myself my identity anymore. 

10. escaping into a fantasy world of yaoi because the real world sucks

I used to be a yaoi fan between the ages of about 16-20.  It was a good time of my life and I enjoyed it.  But I wasn't aware of being trans until the last few years (I'm 24).  I really don't think yaoi had much of a say in it.  I think I just identified with yaoi because I always felt like a gay man inside.  Ask me that when I was 15 and I would have said yeah.  Ask me whether I would be transitioning to male in the future I probably would have looked shocked and said no.  It was a journey getting from there to here and I regret pretty much none of that journey. 

As for the fantasy thing ... I love escaping into a fantasy world... who doesn't     The 'real world' doesn't "suck" though.  It has some unpleasant moments sure, but I don't see how anybody could think that "turning trans" would make that go away...

AND the last one ...

11. wanting to be a gay man or a straight man in order to avoid being a female in a relationship

Yep, definately.  I have proven time and time over that I can't be a female in a relationship.  It goes against my core identity to be with a man as a woman, with him seeing me and treating me as if I were a girl.  Everyone has a right to be loved for the person they actually are and yeah, part of transitioning is seeking that.  In fact I have pretty much found it already, my partner doesn't see me as a girl.  I was already living as male when we met and whenever I am at all dysphoric ze tells me that ze finds it impossible not to see me as male.  I am happy in the relationship.  Yeah.  (To insideontheoutside - I wonder what the point of that insinuation was - course we don't want to be females in relationships  )

Thanks, guys, appreciate it.

And Michael Alexander ...

Quote from: Michael Alexander on November 18, 2010, 12:58:23 AM
No need for apology man. I'm glad to see you standing up and talking in a way I'm too much of a coward to do. You're posts lately have been thoughtful and inspiring. I also follow a certain frustrating blog because they say it's always better to see all sides before deciding what is right for yourself.

I don't think you're a coward at all. And that's a great statement - to look at all sides before deciding what's right for yourself. There's really no other reason to go to that blog other than to see a total one-sided, closed-minded, extremist and hateful view point. Kind of puts everything else into perspective sometimes.

1.The assumption that everyone who identifies as male, who was born into a female body is just a confused young women.
I don't understand what this statement means, so I can't comment.

2. the valuing of maleness over femaleness
I don't value maleness or femaleness. I value people of all genders: man, woman, genderqueer or gender variant.

3. invisibility of role models
I have role models of all genders, some who conform in their gender expression to sex stereotypes, some who do not. They are real people. If anyone had the power of invisibility, I would think it was cool, as I don't know anyone who has that superpower, and I would admire them even more.

4. body dysphoria
I don't have very much body dysphoria, as compared to most FTMs. I do plan to modify my body to have it more congruent with my gender, but overall, I prefer to view my body based on performance and what it can DO rather than what it LOOKS like or IS. And I kick ass.

5. self-harm (and the relationship of this to other forms of self-harm such as cutting and anorexia)I have never engaged in any form of self-harm , addiction, or suffered any mental illness. It is a shame that these problems are more prevalent in the trans community than in the ordinary population as a result of rigid gender constructs and transphobia.

6. peer pressure

My friends represent all parts of the gender spectrum, and we respect one another. Since I am in my 30s, the close, long-term friends I have are almost all people who I've had to work hard to maintain relationships with (to be honest, most of them have done a lot more of the work), so anyone who is not kind or respectful is not someone I keep up with. I do not have to deal with school-related or teenage peer pressure. Not everyone is a child or teen, and the role that friends play in your life diminishes as you learn to function as an independent adult.

7. internalized misogyny (and in some cases internalized homophobia)

I believe in egalitarian treatment and opportunities. I do not hate women or think that they are inferior. I am gay, and I do not hate gay people. Some of my best friends are women! Some of my best friends are gay! Only one is a gay woman. Haha.

8. not wanting to grow up into the expected female social role

I am grown up. I don't know if I am what anyone expected of me. But I am a happy, well-adjusted adult, with a solid education, career, significant other, friends, family, and interesting hobbies – all without conforming to "an expected female social role." Maybe in my 40s that would change? Heehee.

9. not identifying with the images of women they see in the culture

I don't identify with images of women based on gender, because I'm not a woman. I do prefer to identify with people of all genders who are strong, confident and successful in the areas of interest to me. Images of strong athletes, musicians, judges, politicians, and so on are relevant to me, though sometimes I don't identify because these people could kick my ass.


10. escaping into a fantasy world of yaoi because the real world sucks

I don't know what yaoi is. I must be too old.

11. wanting to be a gay man or a straight man in order to avoid being a female in a relationship

I have a relationship that is gender-neutral to gay, because I am a man in a relationship with a man. I have no idea what it means to be "female" in a relationship.

How is that for an honest and only slightly sarcastic response?

i really appreciate that you took the time to start this thread and post your opinions, it's also great to see everyone else's, but to be honest: what's repeated on *this* site has long lost me. i simply fail to view it as containing *any* useful discussion and opinions anymore (if there ever was any).
there's just so much contradiction in that persons thinking (personally her recurring rambling about role models and expectations never fail to crack me up. they seem to be somewhat flexible, hence they're either not existant or uber-rigid, whatever just brings her point across in particular situations).

it seems nearly desperate how she's spitting out one *shocking* revelation after *shocking* revelation, and keeps whining about getting threatened and stuff. seriously, that's not something to get excited about if you publish on the web. nor has it something to do with the topic, it's simply pissed people utilizing their anonymity, for heaven's sake. it's cute how she's totally celebrating it, acting as if this were something new and unique, solely aimed at her very person. gah.

plus i get the feeling that a lot of her readers (read: flaming devotees) are, well, tards? i tried to have a conversation with some of them, wrote down like two pages of stuff approaching diverse topics and was rewarded with various unrelated puns. whew.

[fixed some typos]

Quote from: Clay on November 18, 2010, 02:38:17 PM
i really appreciate that you took the time to start this thread and post your opinions, it's also great to see everyone else's, but to be honest: what's repeated on *this* site has long lost me. i simply fail to view it as containing *any* useful discussion and opinions anymore (if there ever was any).
there's just so much contradiction in that persons thinking (personally her recurring rambling about role models and expectations never fail to crack me up. they seem to be somewhat flexible, hence they're either not existant or uber-rigid, whatever just brings her point across in particular situations).

it seems nearly desperate how she's spitting out one *shocking* revelation after *shocking* revelation, and keeps whining about getting threatened and stuff. seriously, that's not something to get excited about if you publish on the web. nor has it something to do with the topic, it's simply pissed people utilizing their anonymity, for heaven's sake. it's cute how she's totally celebrating it, acting as if this were something new and unique, solely aimed at her very person. gah.

plus i get the feeling that a lot of her readers (read: flaming devotees) are, well, tards? i tried to have a conversation with some of them, wrote down like two pages of stuff approaching diverse topics and was rewarded with various unrelated puns. whew.

[fixed some typos]

Oh, you're right Clay. I mean, what is going on over there some psychologist could probably write a really great paper on. They have really strong beliefs. It's the exact same situation as someone who has very rigid and unyielding religious beliefs. It's the "I'm right, you're wrong - and you will always be wrong" kind of scenario. Also they believe that they know exactly what's going on - have figured it all out in fact. I actually find it fascinating how they can all be so sure of what the cause of a wide variety of physical and mental viewpoints are. They are not open to a rational discussion because every point you make it rebutted with their belief system. The "evidence" is usually pieces of info found here or there and of course the shock value of images. As far as I can ascertain, one of their main points of contention was originally trans people IN the lesbian community (after they declared they were trans - I think). Then it seems to have mutated to, well, what it is now under the facade of butch and lesbian "pride".

But that line of thinking and belief does spill out and just about all those points mentioned above I've had to address at some point coming from a variety of people.

I love that you started this thread and I really have little to add.  I was a big yaoi fan"girl" and I'm still a huge yaoi fan.  It might be because I'm trans, or I just really like two guys going at it (which I do like. xD)  If I can get my hands on yaoi or anything that has a gay relationship in it, I'll read it and probably won't stop until it's done.  I love it.  It's easier for me to identify with because I have always felt like a gay guy stuck in a girl's body--though that's been changing and I'm more focused on looking for a girlfriend than a  boyfriend.

Enough with the rambling, thanks for posting!

I don't know why you are expecting an argument.  There is nothing wrong with stating your opinion and in the forum where you currently are most readers are going to agree with it.  I always enjoy your posts and the time you put into them.

Any rate I thought I would have a go at the list of false stereotypes myself.

1.The assumption that everyone who identifies as male, who was born into a female body is just a confused young women.

This right here is a very bad case of someone outside looking in and deciding based on their own feelings what everyone else is thinking.  They do not know or have any right to say who is confused and who is not.  One thing about this world is that there is a never ending variety of opinions, points of views, and experiences.  Everyone's outlook is all equally valid and no one has the right to speak for someone else.  Unless we are talking about a child and a parent and even that control needs to end once the child is of age.  It would benefit this person greatly if they could open themselves up to accepting different ways of looking at the world.  It would make for a much more enriching and meaningful life.

2. the valuing of maleness over femaleness

I value females and I value males.  The thing is when I consider someone I don't decide their value to me based on their gender.  That would be absurd because there is so much more to a person than their gender.  I personally take people on a person by person basis and look at all that they are.  Most people are very valuable to me I can't think of anyone that I know who isn't.   

3. invisibility of role models

I don't quite know what this means?  There are some role models.  Buck Angel would be mine if I had to pick one.  Yes he's a porn star but his confidence in himself was really unprecedented when he first started creating the first FTM porn.   The strength of his conviction in himself helped to give me what I needed when I first began this process.

4. body dysphoria

I have some body dysphoria, it's true.  I dislike my breasts as they look out of place on my body.  However what I think what this is referring is to those who feel their less than ideal body shape, according to the media, is unappealing.  I have talked to some people who honestly do think that taking a hormone would give them a more sexually attractive figure.  This actually it goes both ways by which I mean FTM and MTF. 

I just want to throw my two cents down here and say that hormones will not make anyone into a model from a cover of a magazine.  I have lost a lot of unwanted body fat while on testosterone but not because of the hormone.  I lost it because I made a real commitment to losing the fat by eating a more muscle building diet and working my ass off at the gym.  If testosterone made everyone a supermodel there would be no men in this world with weight issues, which obviously there are.  This is actually a point of contention to me because I really don't want the idea being put out there that hormones will mould you from the inside out into a GQ model with perfect abs.  Sadly some really do seem to have that.         

5. self-harm (and the relationship of this to other forms of self-harm such as cutting and anorexia)

I have a self destructive streak a mile long.  I am the first one to admit that and because I can see it for what it is I can work to control it.  If this is suggesting I am FTM because I wish to do harm to myself then it really couldn't be more wrong.  To return to the female guise would be a lot more punishing to myself then living the way I know I was born to live.   

6. peer pressure

Now this is just ignorance.  Come on now surely it goes the other way.  It is much more expected that people will conform to the norm than to challenge it in anyway.  Declaring yourself to be different than what people expect of you is an act of self sufficiency and courage not peer pressure.

7. internalized misogyny (and in some cases internalized homophobia)

No actually.  I love woman and respect them very much as equals the same as I do men.  Once again it comes down to the person, not the gender when I decide who deserves my time and respect. 

8. not wanting to grow up into the expected female social role

For a long time I lived my expected female roll, more or less.  I was extremely unhappy but I gave it a fair shot in an attempt to please others outside of myself.  Which was a mistake and I'm glad I saw the truth of the matter in the end.  Saying that and knowing how much more fulfilled I am currently even with all the sacrifices I had to make I can safely assume that having a male social role is what is right for me. 

9. not identifying with the images of women they see in the culture

Yes that is true but also I don't exactly identify with a lot of the male images I see out there either.  I'll never be one of the muscle heads at the gym or someone who enjoys nothing more than a football game and a bag of chips.  I am myself and no one else and so while I look at people and appreciate who they are I don't expect to be them.  I could curl up and feel isolated if I wanted to because I am unusual in plenty of ways.  Or I could go out and attempt to meet people who are more in line with my eccentricities.  Which I have done and still am doing.     

10. escaping into a fantasy world of yaoi because the real world sucks

Sigh yaoi.  I admit I was into yaoi about 6 or 7 years ago.  I even had an account at the y-gallery and still do I think.  I eventually left that interest behind because I became uncomfortable with the uneven power dynamic in the relationships everyone seemed to exalt.  I want a relationship based on mutual respect and regard for the other person.  Rather then having one be the uke which is translated as receiver and the other the seme translated as attacker.  So we have a weak submissive receiver being attacked by someone bigger and stronger. That will never be my ideal or idea of a good time.  I know that being overwhelmingly attracted to each other so much that you fall upon each other is a fun thought.  At the end of the day however I want my partner to be my friend not just my objection of uncontrollable desire.  Outside of Japan there is slash fiction and it is basically the same thing.  When one partner becomes uneven to the other it just does not jive with me.

11. wanting to be a gay man or a straight man in order to avoid being a female in a relationship

I've had several relationships through the years and all those in which I felt lowered in anyway did not last to long.  In my current relationship we have always worked to foster mutual benefit to both of us.  For me being a female or a male would not change the way the relationship functions.  I've always been male of course but even if I was how I appeared at first, which was female, our interactions and day to day life would have been the same.   

Ohh-hohoho!! I've wanted to do this ever since finding her blog, but held off just to avoid throwing more fuel into the fire Opportunity to rant in a safe space, on the other hand? How could I resist?

Okay, here goes (it'll take the form of a rant directly back at her, so will likely sound angry at times - just to warn you) - teal deer alert:

1. The assumption that everyone who identifies as male, who was born into a female body is just a confused young woman.

I'm noting the use of "just" here, since our friend Dirt refuses to acknowledge the fact that body and brain don't always match up Well Dirt, you look like you could easily pass as male to me (she has vids on Youtube); how do you feel when it happens? What about that post you made about that teacher treating you as a boy, just 'cause you acted like one? How does it feel, knowing that you identify so much as a woman, yet you're viewed as a man and are therefore treated like one? How long have you had to live like that - over 20 years? Sucks, doesn't it - uh-huh, yeah. Bingo

Well, you know, if you hate men that much and hate being seen/treated as such, you could always dress more girly, right? People view you as the woman you are, problem solved, right? Oh, wait, you don't identify as the girly type - well, too bad.

Don't like being told how to dress or act? Don't flamin' do it to us then

As for me - I have no perception of gender, so yes, it was extremely confusing. My parents are liberal-minded, so the whole "boys are like this, girls are like that" thing didn't hit me 'til I started school. I tried going along with being a girl, but I grew out of it by the time I hit my mid-twenties. Discovered the term andro for the first time, thought that's what I was. Discovered the term bigender and got even more confused. Fast-forward to now, long after first wanting to scream to anyone who'd listen to just make me a man - I have no perception of gender, remember, so why would I feel so strongly about this? Could it be because, through no influence I can think of, I am actually a man?! An androgynous man maybe, but a man none-the-less. That means my brain is hard-wired in a male fashion, and no amount of pretending to be female or thinking I'm bigendered is gonna make me any happier with myself. Now I feel awesome. Why? Because I'm finally living as a man. I'm on hormones, and actually smile every time I look in the mirror. I get excited about my voice lowering. My friends and family have noticed how much happier I've become, and it'll only get better. This is the first time in my life I've felt so certain about anything!

2. the valuing of maleness over femaleness

I identify with and relate to men better than I do with women. That doesn't mean I value men over women. I value all equally as human beings.

3. invisibility of role models

Remember I mentioned my parents? Or are you gonna blame them for not instilling in me early on about what it means to be a girl? Or the reason I don't see men and women as having to stick to certain behaviours?

Little piece of trivia - although I take after Mum more in looks, I take after Dad more in mannerisms, right down to the more masculine walk. Don't know why, just the way it goes.

Yes, I do have other role models, but gender has nothing to do with it. I admire decent human beings, no matter what they are.

4. body dysphoria

Well, duh

Seriously though - yes, I did hate my body for a long time. To quote an article I read about another FTM, I've always hated my body but never understood why. Ironically, my body was one step ahead of my socially conditioned mind, in that it's more androgynous. I have a wide waist, "boy's hips" (that sadly have filled out over time), hairier legs than my dad and brother, forearms that are hairier than my housemate's, a happy trail that used to stop at my navel... I could go on. All the time I was trying to be a "girl", I hated that aspect of myself. Now I know better, and want my boy's hips back (Thankfully that's just a matter of time now)

5. self-harm (and the relationship of this to other forms of self-harm such as cutting and anorexia)

Nope There's one in the eye for your little theory Yes, it's common because of the despair that people feel, but although I stood in the kitchen once during senior/high school with a carving knife held to my wrist, that's the closest I ever got to attempting suicide or self-harm. After that I just detached myself from it all, watched everything from some other place that wasn't in my body. The T is actually helping to bring me back to Earth, not before time

6. peer pressure

I never could understand this one. How, pray tell, in this binary-thinking society that you demonstrate so well, can one feel pressured to undergo something that society despises?! If anything, the more hateful ones (like you!) do their best to pressure us to stay as we are, to "practice being the woman that you are" when we so blatantly aren't flamin' women!

7. internalized misogyny (and in some cases internalized homophobia)

Oh, please. May I take this chance to dispel one of your assumptions about T in that it turns us gay - now, some folk do happen to be attracted to other men, just as cis-guys are. That doesn't mean we're all gonna magically turn gay after some time on T. Some of us, believe it or not, are attracted to women, remain attracted to women or realise they prefer women after all. Speaking for myself here; having had to put up with the way men treated me as a woman, the last thing I want to do is turn around and treat other women like that myself. I like women. Not (just) sexually, but genuinely like women. I like men, even after initially holding a negative view of them (see penultimate statement). I like anyone else who classifies as a decent human being. The only internalising I did was to ignore the many subtle/blatant signs throughout my life that I may not be who everyone assumed I was just 'cause of my external appearance.

As for the homophobia part? I once wrote a long email to this gay 12 year old boy detailing why he wasn't to kill himself. Draw your own conclusions about that one

8. not wanting to grow up into the expected female social role

I hardly see that as a good reason to "jump ship". What is it you're doing, after all? You go your own merry way as a butch lesbian. You still identify as a woman. Great, good for you. There are plenty of tomboys/butch women walking around who are happy to stay women. We're not happy to stay as women, not because we hate what's expected of us, but because We. Aren't. Women. Get it?!

9. not identifying with the images of women they see in the culture

The whole culture of boob jobs and botox to fit a model sickens me, just as much as the whole rippling six-packs with guys. I hate the way people see these pictures and think that's the way they need to look.

Now, the average women on the street with long, flowing hair, looking pretty with their make-up, etc? I used to be envious of those women. I used to wonder why I couldn't be like that, why I couldn't just be "normal", why I could never get that look right. Now I'm glad I'm not "normal" - I've learned too much from having to fight for my identity.

10. escaping into a fantasy world of yaoi because the real world sucks

Okay, I write about it in varying shades. But you know what? I write about it in such a way you'd think I had a male body, and had participated in such activities, without a shred of research beyond knowing what's possible. I call that my outlet, not an escape per se.

Now, fantasy worlds in general? I did that so much Mum often accused me of being a dreamer, having my head in the clouds. Yes, I escaped, from the reality of being so confused over my identity, it would push me close to insanity! Escapism was a survival mechanism, it kept me from thinking too much about my plight - if it weren't for that, I could easily be dead by now.

11. wanting to be a gay man or a straight man in order to avoid being a female in a relationship

Do I really have to mention the whole "what's gender got to do with anything" again?! Oh well. Well, I have been "the female" in straight relationships - another big warning sign that something was very wrong somewhere, because it literally felt wrong. Not wrong as in "Oh, I must be lesbian" wrong, although that was the first thing I considered. Just the whole physical side that I won't go into here, just felt wrong.

The next relationship I go into will feel downright weird at first. It'll be like being a virgin all over again, and I'll be starting completely from scratch. It'll be my first relationship as a man, and I've no idea yet how I'll feel about it, but all I can do is see how it goes. Now, if it's another man I'm with, that'll feel even weirder, but I'll have to cross that bridge as and when.


... Phew. Much teal deer, much rambling that probably got off the point at least once, but hey - I feel better now, that's what counts

Thanks for making this post, BTW

Since everone else is doing it.. why not lolz



1. The assumption that everyone who identifies as male, who was born into a female body is just a confused young women. I don't think I'm confused. In fact I've tried to suppress and be female most of my life. Then I was confused about why ->-bleeped-<- never worked for me, and why I was always depressed. Now that I've entertained and accepted that I'm male and living as male I am not confused. I am happy and well adjusted.

2. the valuing of maleness over femaleness

Who cares.. roles are equal. Women have advantages in areas, men do in others.. does this matter to me? Not really. Does this matter to most people? Not really.

3. invisibility of role models

I've had lots of role models.. both male and female. Lots of strong men one, lots of strong women one.  However I always tended to like/identify with the male ones better.

4. body dysphoria
I pass, I can squish stuff in, use an stp. I'm not all that dysphoric. I want T not for body dysphoria.. but because it'd be nice to have a lower voice and more muscles, and some facial hair.. if none of that changed on T? Wouldn't be such a huge deal. I pass well and have decent genetics so meh. However I hope to get it soon.
Chest - I'd like to be flat - because it's a pain to bind. But day to day I don't really care so much.. because my binder flattens me out and I forget I'm earing it.
Down there? Yeah I'd like a penis.. or a phallo or metoid.. something that I can use to penetrate and pee with that is a physical part of me.. That's probably what bothers me the most. I'm often sexually frusterated. But I can still get off.. and do routinely. I can pee standing up.. so meh.

5. self-harm (and the relationship of this to other forms of self-harm such as cutting and anorexia)

Never did any. Never cut, done drugs, been drunk, never tried to kill myself.... blah blah blah.

6. peer pressure

Who the f@ck would pressure me to be male? Even other transsexuals don't pressure... they are more source of pressure against transitioning then other people.. lolz.

7. internalized misogyny (and in some cases internalized homophobia)

Sure I was homophobic for years.. only because I knew something was wrong down inside me.. and I was scared. I wanted to be normal. I wanted to be a female that would be happy as a female.. marry a nice guy... blah balh blah.. Deeper down I wanted to be a boy.. and the conflict between the two caused severe homophobia for years.. No more repressing Tad, no more homophobia. I've kinda embraced my gay side now..

8. not wanting to grow up into the expected female social role

Never did anyways. I kicked ass at sports, got put into the boys leagues at time. Did hobbies that were boys, had boys interests.. Didn't do many feminine things. Rarely every took anay slack for that. People just accepted me for who I was.

9. not identifying with the images of women they see in the culture

Holy ->-bleeped-<-.. if you do identify with them.. you're f@cked up and living in a dream world. Most of those beauties are photoshopped, babries aren't realistic.. blah balh blah. Unachieavable.. would I even want to look like them if I could? NO.. who would want that kind of attention that came with that.

10. escaping into a fantasy world of yaoi because the real world sucks

Yaoi sucks IMO> Really only ever heard of it from straight men.. and trans forums.. I watched it for all of 1 minute then went to go vomit. Not my kind of lifestyle either.

AND the last one ...

11. wanting to be a gay man or a straight man in order to avoid being a female in a relationship
I'm a man, an effeminate one but a man just the same. I enjoy being a man.. but does it really matter who is what in the relationship as long as you both love each other?

And Nemo - you totally hit something I've thought all along ... the butch lesbians are fighting against being seen as men - they want to be seen as women but for the most part are, well, very manly. That's not a diss - that's an observation based on societies views on gender roles, clothing, mannerisms, etc. So it IS kind of the same because people are mistakenly calling them men and in their minds it's not true. Well, if in your mind you are male and people mistakenly call you female, that can get to you as well. Where it goes off the rails is the total discounting of the later - that it's a horrible mental disorder that makes people disfigure their bodies.

What plenty of people seem to fail to see is that there is room for everyone. Being a butch lesbian isn't committing a crime ... it's not hurting anyone. It's a personal choice. So is being FTM. Not allowing people to have personal choice is what the big rally cry should be about. I see a lot of common (general) issues throughout the LGBT community (and I've never been IN it - just observing from afar so this could be way off, but I don't think so) but I see a lot of conflict too. It just seems to be human nature, no matter what the topic is, for all people to just not get along. And I really think inflexible belief systems are one of the things that cause turmoil in communities. Instead of everyone being on the same page about the general issues, there's all these factions that have broken off and they're all being led by their beliefs and opinions and those aren't being separated from the real issues that would actually benefit a larger amount of people.

Also, random thought I was thinking earlier today - I've never "fallen in love" with someones genitalia. Sounds funny, huh? But seriously - do you fall in love with a penis or a vagina? NO. You fall in love with a person. Love is bigger than the physical body and it transcends the physical body. Why the hell are people still arguing about that sort of thing from the viewpoint of whether someone has a penis or a vagina (or anything in between)? In the same light, why are some people casting judgment on others for what's in their pants? So illogical to me.

Great topic. I loved reading everyone's posts. I'd whip up one of my own, but I'd just be repeating a lot of what's been said already.

Okay.

1. I am not sure if I'm really a boy or just a confused girl. I feel like a boy, though, and in my dreams I have a boy's body (this leads to an awful shock upon waking up). To see if I am really a boy is why I will be going to therapy, it takes years befoe I can "poison myself with hormones".
2. I don't value maleness over femaleness. I'm just personally more interested in listening to stories/playing games about/whatever active people, the heroic ones, the ones that do stuff. Traditionally, the "active" character is male, and the passive character is female. I actually find it cooler if the hero is a woman who kicks ass and takes names than if a man would do the similar.
3. Er... Jeanne d'Arc, Queen Christina, Tank Girl, my parents, Marie Curie... These are my childhood role-models, my idols.
4. I don't pass, I wake up with "body shock", I felt like an alien had taken control of my body when entering puberty. I don't like having this curvy body; I want it to be straight lines instead.
5. Aye, eating problems since I was about 10 or maybe even earlier. Occasical masochistic side ("I have done something bad/feel sad/etc, I must punish myself!"). Thoughts of suicide, no serious attempt.
6. Peer pressuse? Lolwat? I don't feel pressured to become a boy by people, I feel pressured not to.
7. I have nothing against women or rainbow people. I tend to be a bit dismissive of the hyper-feminine "Ooh, I broke a nail!" type of people, but that's just because I don't see the point of being like that myself. I don't mind butch lesbians, it's just that I'm not one of them.
8. Yes. This, so much. I can't stand the idea of having to become a woman, a wife, a mother, a grandmother. I want to be a man, a husband, a father, a grandfather. Sure, I might be a bit "gay" in my mannerisms, but I'm still a boy, not a seahorse.
9. I identify with Vasquez from Aliens, Kaylee from Firefly, Kaye and Val from Holly Black's books, April Ryan from The Longest Journey... I like women. I dislike bimbos. I have nothing against feminine or butch women.
10. I've always been an escapist through books, but yaoi never appealed to me. Probably because I discovered it in the Jhonen Vasquez fandom, which (to me) should be free of romance regardless of gender (yuri is okay, thouh - Devi and Tenna would make a cute coupke!). I have nothing against gay guys, it's just that I personally find no joy from reading love stories betwen them (and the sex grosses me out; sorry to say!). I, as a typical guy, prefer lesbian couples.
11. I am a boy, I will not be feminized and made smaller by being someone's girlfriend. I can be their shy, submissive, sweet, flouncing boyfriend. Just not their girlfriend. I haven't had sex yet, so I don't know what to think about penetration. In dreams, it varies.

Yeah, this is my answer to the questions.

I like butch women, they're very cool. I don't like being seen as one when I'm not. Easy as pie, no? I hope that the dirty spreader of hate would listen to reason, but the spreader does not.