Quote from: Bluetraveler on November 17, 2010, 12:27:58 PM
That's not a very "manly" thing to do, is it?

Wow     Patronising 

I don't think its anyone elses business what I call my body parts.  If someone doesn't like my terminology they can ignore it.

Our minds determine who we are.

Quote from: Bluetraveler on November 17, 2010, 12:27:58 PM
I think most of you actually didn't read the post on my blog (not even here!) which started this topic...

What, is that required reading? I was responding to your post in this thread.

Quote from: Bluetraveler on November 17, 2010, 12:27:58 PM
In FTM forums, many, many people use ridiculous, mechanical and/or childish names for female parts.

Yeah! Like Oprah and "vajayjay." But I guess that's all right. After all, she is non-trans and therefore vastly superior to us.

Quote from: Bluetraveler on November 17, 2010, 12:27:58 PMYou would not be YOU if you didn't have your "junk", even if it's a thing you hate with the fiercest of passions. I accepted my female body but I also have a baby face as well. Guess what, I'd LOVE to have a more mature, androgynous looking face...So if I magically changed my face to something more mature and masculine, I'd lose an important part of myself as well.

So my buddy who had phalloplasty is suddenly a different person? Granted, he will change somewhat because of his surgery, but he's still the same person. Only happier. He's so bloody happy that he almost can't stand it. Yeah, it would definitely have been better to just stick with what he had originally.

And a person with a nasty port wine stain on his face should just leave it there, no matter how bad it makes him feel and no matter how many rude comments he gets from insensitive dolts? And people shouldn't be allowed to get nose jobs or reconstructive surgery? After all, that terrible facial scar that the mugger left on Cathy's face is a part of her now. If she repairs her scar, she's denying an important part of who she is.

Quote from: Bluetraveler on November 17, 2010, 12:27:58 PMDon't hate your body, and remember that scars (but not mastectomy ones) are cool!

I'll be sure to tell that to the gal at my school who has one of those scars because of cancer. "Hey, Sally, your surgery scar isn't cool!" I'm sure that would go over well.

And as for me, I didn't have top surgery to be cool. I did it so I could stay alive.

Normally I try to stay out of these things because I am grateful for this site and do not want to offend anyone and loose my place here but right now I feel like I have a lot to say.

Bluetraveler, everyone sadly EVERYONE, is entitled to their own opinion. But I feel like you are getting on the ftm boards and pushing your thoughts and opinions at us all. When you offend any of us instead of an apology there seem to be petty insults. Like this:

Quote from: Bluetraveler on November 17, 2010, 12:27:58 PM
That's not a very "manly" thing to do, is it?

He was speaking his mind on a site where he felt safe to do so. As for your comment about

Quote from: Bluetraveler on November 17, 2010, 12:27:58 PM

In FTM forums, many, many people use ridiculous, mechanical and/or childish names for female parts.

You would not be YOU if you didn't have your "junk", even if it's a thing you hate with the fiercest of passions. I accepted my female body but I also have a baby face as well.
Don't hate your body, and remember that scars (but not mastectomy ones) are cool! [/i]

It's a coping thing but how come you come onto a board to tell us that the names we use for our anatomy that makes us uncomfortable are ridiculous or childish? Why do you care? You accepted your female body and realized you're not trans. That's great but we are transgender so some of us don't accept our body.

As for the last bit of the quote I found this very important. I feel like this would be something I would see on a hate blog. Those mastectomy scars... They are there and most people aren't happy with the scars (I could be wrong) they are happy with the surgery that left them able to take their shirt off like the man they are.

I say all of this because I've read many posts and... I feel like you are expecting and pushing those who are transgender to think and feel like you when we are not like you. I'm happy as a transgender male, I accept it and it upsets me when people question that, comment on that, or insult that.

Moderators: Feel free to delete this if you deem it a personal attack or offensive. It was not meant that way. Only meant as me speaking my mind.

Quote from: Michael Alexander on November 17, 2010, 08:18:51 PMModerators: Feel free to delete this if you deem it a personal attack or offensive. It was not meant that way. Only meant as me speaking my mind.

I suspect that I'm pushing the envelope a little or getting close to it, but you're a perfect gentleman, Michael. No worries here.

QuoteYour body is NOT JUNK! You may not like it, but it's a valuable thing, even if it "betrayed" you at puberty! Female parts are part of your history, regardless of the fact you like it or not, just like scars and wrinkles are. You would not be YOU if you didn't have your "junk", even if it's a thing you hate with the fiercest of passions. I accepted my female body but I also have a baby face as well. Guess what, I'd LOVE to have a more mature, androgynous looking face, so that I could "pass" as my real age and not get weird looks when I talk complex stuff or I drive, but it's part of me and the solutions to the obstacles I had to overcome for it (in my field especially) are now part of me too. So if I magically changed my face to something more mature and masculine, I'd lose an important part of myself as well.
Don't hate your body, and remember that scars (but not mastectomy ones) are cool!

Blue, you accepted your female body because you are not trans. But we are trans. There is a biological reason that our brains and bodies do not go together, and we can't just snap our fingers and fix it. This is how we were born, and the only thing we have to accept is our identity and the struggles associated with it. We are not obligated to love parts of us that do not align with our minds. Comparing your insecurities about your face to our dysphoria is bordering on insulting. You should be taking this argument to a forum about plastic surgery for vain 20 somethings (not that all plastic surgery is solely for vanity's sake), not to a forum for people whose dysphoria can make them suicidal. Here's the difference: I would love to have a stronger jawline, but I don't need one. The specific shape of my jaw is not engrained in my brain's chemistry from birth, but the existence of one is. But I am not meant to have breasts. Their presence, not an imagined hatred for them, made me suicidal not long after developing them. Because the presence of breasts is NOT part of my brain.

There was research done on a man in India with "reverse phantom-limb syndrome." He believed his left leg below the knee was not meant to exist there. Doctors thought he was crazy until a brain scan was done. While his knee, or any other part of his body was touched, the sensation was registered in a specific part of the brain dedicated to that part. When his lower left leg was touched, nerves registered it, but there was no part in the brain that existed to acknowledge it as part of him. I strongly suspect this phenomenon occurs in transsexuals. Female brains have sections devoted to their breasts, male brains do not and instead have one that is unfilled for a penis. Due to whatever hormonal occurrence in utero, we ended up with the wrong bodies for our brains. Therefore, these parts literally do not belong to us, "us" as in our brains, the core of our consciousness. Do not ask us to accept what we cannot accept. Again, you were able to accept it because you are a female bodied, female brained person. We are not, and you don't seem to understand that despite what experiences you had in the past, you are not the same as us.

Quote from: Nikolai_S on November 17, 2010, 08:25:16 PM
Female brains have sections devoted to their breasts, male brains do not and instead have one that is unfilled for a penis. Due to whatever hormonal occurrence in utero, we ended up with the wrong bodies for our brains. Therefore, these parts literally do not belong to us, "us" as in our brains, the core of our consciousness. Do not ask us to accept what we cannot accept. Again, you were able to accept it because you are a female bodied, female brained person. We are not, and you don't seem to understand that despite what experiences you had in the past, you are not the same as us.

Not to derail my own topic but I've tried to do some research on my own into stuff like this over the years. It seems to me that there definitely are many different things that can happen in utero that change the brain in regards to gender. I really do believe that what psychologists say is just a "mental disorder" is not - that is IS a physical difference in the brain of trans people. Somewhere I remember reading some scientist was trying to do a study on this but basically couldn't prove it because well, the brains had to be dissected to truly prove the differences. I think this scientist did get a few from trans people that had passed and the info they did find was pointing to that. I wish I could remember it because it really isn't very valid if I can't come up with the source and all, but it made a real impression on me when I read it. It was one of several things that helped me not feel like I had a "disorder". The disorder thing just really rubs me the wrong way. Yes, some people I think really do have a "disorder" - like Blue - because she thought she wanted to transition and live her life as a man but apparently it was all just mental issues and she turned out not to be trans ... I guess psychologists would call that "gender identity disorder"? But I don't like to be lumped into the disorder category because much like Nikolai_S I know, beyond a shadow of a doubt, that I was born this way. It wasn't some psychological deviation I developed over time. Of course growing up and interacting as a certain gender and being socialized as a certain gender will shape the way your brain operates, but some things will always stay the same.

When what is going on in your brain really does not match with what is going on with your body, it goes beyond just uncomfortable. It's sometimes downright weird. I've had lucid dreams where my body is an exact match and then I wake up and it feels like one of those movies where they switch bodies! I mean, I look the same outwardly but then I got to take a piss and am all, oh. Actually sometimes I don't even have to have recently been dreaming to think that. Sometimes when people are referring to me as a female, I feel even more detached - like I am playing an acting role or they're talking to the person behind me or a number of other things because it just doesn't match what's in my mind.

ETA

Doh I totally forgot what I originally wanted to say about breasts! Yeah that's like, I look at those and go, huh, that's interesting, what ARE those doing there again? I've been involved in covos (acting the female part) where women are going on and on about their breasts and how great there are and I'm just like, yeah, yours ARE great cause they're attached to you and I like breasts just as much as the next guy! Luckily I stop myself before saying that out loud, but that's what I'm thinking! LOL Which illustrates how totally opposite my mind is. And yes, I realize there are some women (non-trans) who don't like their breasts but they usually don't like them for reasons like they're too small or too big. They usually don't want to lob them off.

Thanks for the mention of Ramachandran. I was having a hard time tracking down the studies that had been conducted on this in particular. The mental body map was what I was referring to in my long-winded way.

Quote from: Kvall on November 17, 2010, 09:30:52 PM
V.S. Ramachandran, who has done a large percentage of the scientific research on phantom limbs and their relationship to neurobiology, has studied this phenomena in trans people as well. He found that trans people have significant phantom body experiences regarding sexual characteristics (no surprise there). He's not exactly eloquent on trans terminology but he's emphasized that we all have a mental body map that covers our entire body and that transsexuals have a body map that matches their internal sex.

Interesting. Of course this makes total sense to me - the mental body map thing. From a very early age I could describe what a nut shot felt like (and have my description confirmed by bio guys) because I actually COULD feel it when I got hit there. No one had an explanation of why that was like that. Hell at points in the past I'd even thought things like maybe I was a guy in my last life and reincarnation really does exist? LOL Really, I've explored logical to outlandish explanations for things and I still end up at the same place - I am how I am and it's normal for me.

Quote from: insideontheoutside on November 17, 2010, 09:15:28 PM
I really do believe that what psychologists say is just a "mental disorder" is not - that is IS a physical difference in the brain of trans people.

My psychologist feels that it is something biological and that isn't a "mental disorder" of any kind.  We had a really good conversation about it the last time I saw her.  She's not a gender therapist, either, but she has experience with transgender patients and has transgender friends.   

@ Kvall:

That's pretty interesting and I think it makes sense, at least in regards to me and how I interact with my own body at times.

Well... I don't give a damn. I have two protruding lumps of tissue on my chest. I don't want to "cherish my inner woman" by calling them "perly mounds crowned with rubies". The same goes for the below-the-belt area.

To me, people in general tend to use silly names for their body parts. My boyfriend has made up what's almost its own laguage of bizarre words for body parts.



...then again, I'm just a young lad, and I've got other issues as well as the trans thing. So I s'ppose that my info is unreliable.

BlueTraveller, can you please share a link to your blog?

Wow, I'm so glad I found this thread. Not because of the original discussion as such (although I'll get to that in a minute), but the derailing was really helpful - it answers so many questions for me. Like - I'm a writer, and in the past I've written a lot of gay romance (mainly between guys). I was writing about their thoughts, feelings and even physical sensations as though I knew what it felt like, even when I had never experienced it myself. I thought it was strange (I hadn't realised I was trans back then); another of those big warning signs, it seems

About the body parts - I refer to the chest as gynecomastia/moobs/etc. because to me, that's what they are. It helps me to feel better, and not be so bothered about binding when lounging around indoors. Downstairs is a different story, though - I HATE that opening with a passion and don't refer to it if I don't need to. When I do, it's just "downstairs, down there", etc. Although with being on T nearly a month now, it feels less female and more like it's meant to feel - junk sounds about right to me now (in the male-slang terms, that is) ^_^

Quote from: Nemo on November 18, 2010, 12:53:04 PM
Wow, I'm so glad I found this thread. Not because of the original discussion as such (although I'll get to that in a minute), but the derailing was really helpful - it answers so many questions for me. Like - I'm a writer, and in the past I've written a lot of gay romance (mainly between guys). I was writing about their thoughts, feelings and even physical sensations as though I knew what it felt like, even when I had never experienced it myself. I thought it was strange (I hadn't realised I was trans back then); another of those big warning signs, it seems

I write male characters - no one that doesn't actually know me has ever questioned my "maleness" after reading my characters. I don't do research. I just write what I know.