Hi,

I am getting a bit ahead of myself, but it is hard, if not impossible to think on SRS.  Over the past however long, I have been trying to decide that if and when I have SRS, who I would want.  I can see this thread causing polarization, but I am trying to do things scientifically, okay visually too.

My first observation is that there are technically no photos of results.  Yes, Anne Lawrence's site has a few photos, most of them quite dated.  I hope that techniques improve in a period of 5 to 10 years along with everything else.  Also, the photos on her site are not very good, when comparing to a natal female.  Dr. Brassard in Montreal, Canada seems to have the best results of the ones that are posted on her site.  From what I have read on this site, a lot of women here agree.  Even he, has exceptionally few photos with the last one in 2006.

The SRS surgeon in my area of Los Angeles, Dr. Gary Alter, has no photos.  His personal website has a few results, although some of the photos have broken links.  Of the photos that show, let me say that I would not be using that as marketing material.  I do remember watching a documentary several years ago (or was that a film), where this woman used him, but again no results or bad ones.

There is Dr. Supporn, who has name recognition and his own method named after the town where he practices.  He has his own Yahoo Group.  Yes, I am a member there.  I have read that the reason Anne Lawrence does not post photos is because he has threatened to sue and forcefully requested the photos taken down, so hence no photos.  His presentation packet is so so, but says nothing.  The photos on his website and the couple that I saw in forums (I think one on this site posted in about 2006, although looked at recently) are not the most flattering.  Flattering?  Some are scary, seriously.  One result was worse than the next.  One result has a huge (and I do mean huge) inner labia.  Most outer labia are not nice puffy and close, but rather look like scrotal skin.  The results after a period of time does show the scar lines.  This one woman who complained about it in some forum does have visible scar lines.  If I remember correctly, one person on this site (or could be another site) said that his results are not consistent.

One area that I tried to look at was the vaginal opening.  Some openings in photographs look like gaping holes.  I do not know if that is a poor photograph or just the state of things, but then others are better.  The bottom part, where the inner labia come together on some photos look strange.

Much of the problem is the poor quality of the photographs.  Many of the photographs are close up and do not show a more realistic distant view.  It is hard to get a feeling from a few photographs.

Yes, patients do not like sharing their personal anatomy, so I understand, but how is someone supposed to decide?

Dr. S has an advantage of depth.  I think that I heard that Dr. Brassard has better luck with the m2f vagina having self lubrication.  This subject is barely addressed.

Another subject not addressed at all is the g-spot.  I finally know what and where that is.  Okay, there was this one doctor in Wisconsin, if I remember correctly, who retired, had a zillion photos on his site, most of them looked quite good, although one woman complained about his bedside manner.  I remember reading on his site that he placed nerves and material and nerves from the tip of the penis integrated with the vaginal wall.  I do not know if others do that or that was his thing.

To bring the topic full circle, how is one supposed to find out which doctor gives the most realistic looking results along with sensation and depth, and a g-spot or similar structure would be nice too.

Why is Anne Lawrence the only place on the web for photos?  This one wikipedia page referred to by a posting on this site from a few years ago was incredibly small.  Why that person said the photo was better than anything on Anne's site is beyond me.  That was a postage stamp of a photo.

Okay, thinking on this topic, I came across this other transsexual woman SRS surgeon (not Marcie Bowers) and she has a few photos.  Dr. Bower's site is also not the most marketable, although she does have a name, no question about that.

TSRoadmap has some photos too or is that a redirect to Anne's site.  In any case, if judging from the internet, one would think that nobody does SRS anymore with the heyday back about 10-years ago.  That, of course, is the furthest thing from the truth.

I hope that I will not create a firestorm with this thread.  That is not intended.  My question is merely to get more information.

Thanks,

An inquiring mind who wants to know some more.

some good info there..... I have myself gasped at a lot of the pics online which have me torn between thinking 1) omg vaginas are so...axewoundish meh still better than before, and 2) they are just mostly pics taken sooner after surgery than later and they all mostly look better after a few years of healing.
But I don't know under the circumstances what surgeons can do is amazing. Some people prefer different surgeons based on personal preference of what they feel to be best for them.. sure the true ability to analyse all results are pretty much nil which makes it that much harder. I guess some surgeons might feel that it really depends on the patient and their after care regime that can effect results quite a bit.. it can color results in their eyes, perhaps.
It also seems that if you know people that have pleasing results then that can be good enough, at least for me.
I think this is why I didn't really bother with research on it as much as I should, I'd say I've done more research on post-op care than surgeon decision making
currently reading: http://www.intelleng.com/zen.html

Dr. Christine McGinn has photos of her work on her website, she is probably the transsexual woman surgeon you mentioned.

http://www.drchristinemcginn.com/

Jamie

I'm 11 days post-op and I'm extremely satisfied with my results from Suporn already.
I think you need to go and check out the natural variation in cis vaginas (i.e. NOT porn sites where labia are airbrushed out) and realise that vaginas are, to be perfectly blunt, pretty damn ugly things close up, whether you're cis or trans.
Just as with cis women, natural variation will occur depending on the trans woman; what your skin is like, what your health is like, your age, how you look after the wound pre-surgery, what material you had to work with (short, long, orchi, cicumcised). This is not a 'buy and install' procedure. Each neo vagina will be unique and yes, some will look really fugly, no matter who you have as a surgeon.
But pretty much all vaginas look fugly anyway.
Realistic expectations are a MUST if you want surgery.

In order to assure yourself that the results of SRS can be as good as nature, take a look at this cis site:

http://www.vulvavelvet.org/index.html

Caroline

Quote from: CaitJ on December 02, 2010, 02:41:49 AM
I'm 11 days post-op and I'm extremely satisfied with my results from Suporn already.
I think you need to go and check out the natural variation in cis vaginas (i.e. NOT porn sites where labia are airbrushed out) and realise that vaginas are, to be perfectly blunt, pretty damn ugly things close up, whether you're cis or trans.
Just as with cis women, natural variation will occur depending on the trans woman; what your skin is like, what your health is like, your age, how you look after the wound pre-surgery, what material you had to work with (short, long, orchi, cicumcised). This is not a 'buy and install' procedure. Each neo vagina will be unique and yes, some will look really fugly, no matter who you have as a surgeon.
But pretty much all vaginas look fugly anyway.
Realistic expectations are a MUST if you want surgery.

This is SO true.

You do have to be uber realistic and realise that whilst surgical technique will make a difference so will your own anatomy. As each of us has different spacings between organs, sizes, bone structure etc. It simply isn't a repeatable process. Three patients - same technique - three completely different results.

Finally if you are unlucky then a rework is possible and can help. I lived for 25 years with a result that was decidedly cosmetically marginal before going back. The transformation was very satisfactory.

I've recently learnt that there are 2 surgeons here in Australia that do SRS, however, due to the law here neither provides example of their work. It seems the only way to find out what they are like is to actually have a consult with them.. Which, given that neither is in my state becomes an expensive proposition, specially just to find out what they are like..


EDIT: And yes, vagina's are odd looking things, and no 2 look alike..

jamied: Christine McGinn is the transsexual woman doctor that I mentioned.  I just did not remember her name.  As I recall, she is affiliated with Dr. Gary Alter, the doctor here in Los Angeles, at least I remember finding her when I was looking at his site and somehow I got to hers.

Dr. Metzler in Arizona seems to have an outstanding practice.  I have only heard good things about his surgery and the facility/staff he uses.

CaitJ: Thank you for the response.  I am not being biassed in any way, just honestly trying to do some research with the minimal amount of information present.   I feel like an empty sponge trying to get water, where there is not any.  Anyways, Dr. Suporn definitely, and I believe Dr. Lawrence both have a photograph of a CIS / GG vulva.  I believe that I saw one on tsroadmap.com too, but I will not swear by it, as I have not looked at photographs there for a while.  Those look normal and some of the others, most notably on the Dr. S Yahoo group site do not.

Oh, fugly is F****ing ugly. Aha.  I get it now.

I do not think that vaginas look ugly.  How are vaginas on porn sites airbrushed?  I know that the vast number of vulvas on porn sites are hairless.   The shaved vulvas look better than hairy ones at least in photos that I have seen.

I looked at the site, although I should look some more.  Some vulvas look good, while others do not.  The one from the heavyset woman did not look good.  Also, the one with the huge opening in the vagina looked ugly too.  I presume that this woman had lots of children and the opening did not close like when she was a younger or maybe some other reason.  Otherwise, most looked good.

The one difference between vulvas that I have seen surgeons create and those of natal women are seen in this photo from that site, namely the bottom of the vulva near the butt, where the bottom skin folds around.  I do not see that on trans women's photos that I have seen posted.

http://www.vulvavelvet.org/imagesbsx/submit4.jpg

rejennyrated:  Yes, it makes sense that each person is different (weight, health, height, spacing, etc., etc.) all make a difference and will yield a different outcome.

On a theoretical basis, I have heard (even in biology classes) that no two vulvas are identical.  I presume that means penises too.  I have not seen  that many vulvas to offer up my own opinion.  There are some that are better looking than others, true.  The natal vulva  on Dr. S's site that he offers up as a comparison seems like a textbook classical vagina and a nice looking one at that.  That does not look ugly at all.

I have read that some doctors will not do a rework on someone else's work.  I will not swear by it, but as I recall Dr. S falls into this camp.  I think that I read that somewhere.  I know that Dr. Gary Alter does, as his website talks about rework.

Yes, many of the photos were taken very soon after SRS, but not all of them.  Anne Lawrence's site have photos from nearly a year after surgery, not on all, but I do seem to recall that some were not immediately after SRS.  I guess the question is if the appearance of the vulva changes from year one (1) to year (5) post SRS.

Just a quick note: There are lots of photos on most surgeons sites. I know for a fact Marci has them on her site:

http://marcibowers.com/grs/srsoutcomes.html

There is a forum post somewhere in the 2006 timeframe on this site called something like "Dr. Brassard verses Dr. Suporn".   I read the postings about a month ago, as it came up on a Google search.  In the postings, at least one talked about Dr. Metzler and posted a negative comment about him.  I read other negative comments about him too, not that I remember what at the moment.

I saw Marcie Bowers photos. She does not have consistent results from the photos that I have seen.  From what I have seen and read Dr. Brassard and Dr. S seem the best, but that was the reason for my posting this thread in the first place.

There are few photographs and little information about each of the doctors.  Also, at least I do not have access to the records that show how many patients each treated, what the results were, complications if any, and of course a patient's honest feedback.  There are always individuals that dislike and like a particular surgeon.  One woman had noticeable scar lines after SRS (about a year afterwards).  She was very happy, as I remember reading as were others, but this one person commented on the scar lines and said that it was a bad job because of it.  Another then commented that they had the same scar lines and that her boyfriend easily noticed that she did not have a natal vagina.  I guess that she was in stealth mode.

The point is that information is scarce and patchy at best.

For all that I have read and seen, there is no surgeon that provides information adequately to make an informed decision.  Some have virtually no information, such as Gary Alter.

I had surgery in 1974 with Dr. Biber and appearance doesn't change much over the years, not after the initial healing. I used to think my vulva was UGLY and that it was the result of the primitive techniques way back then but the more I see of "normal women", especially now with so many picture on the Internet, the more I like my own, actually PREFER my own! 

When it comes down to it, there is such a wide range in what is "natural" that appearance should not be an issue at all. As someone said years ago, if a guy gets that close, he has other things on his mind! 

Maybe I am more female than I give myself credit for.  I smiled in reading the comment that if a guy gets that close then he has other ideas on his mind.  True, guys like to get laid and women care about their looks, or so stereotypical behaviors go.  I do obsess about my own looks.  That much is definitely true.

Quote from: Jerica on December 02, 2010, 01:02:45 PM
Just a quick note: There are lots of photos on most surgeons sites. I know for a fact Marci has them on her site:

http://marcibowers.com/grs/srsoutcomes.html

This. Most of the well known surgeons do. You might have to hunt around on their sites to find them though.

Also, genetics and anatomy play a big part in the outcome. Not everyone has the "ideal" body shape, fat distribution, muscle tone, etc to yield a consistently "beautiful, aesthetically perfect" result the majority of the time. Just too much variation due to genetics, age, diet, etc. Now I'm not saying that some surgeons are not more skilled than others, but you could have the most gifted surgeon in the world, and not have an "ideal outcome", if the surgeon doesn't have the right combination of variables to start with.

Bowers, Brassard, McGinn, & Meltzer (in no particular order) are the surgeons that will be on my short list.

Quote from: JennX on December 02, 2010, 07:51:41 PMNow I'm not saying that some surgeons are not more skilled than others, but you could have the most gifted surgeon in the world, and not have an "ideal outcome", if the surgeon doesn't have the right combination of variables to start with.

And it's not just genetics, there are things the patient can do to maximize the outcome.  Just last weekend I was asking a friend about her trip to Montreal to visit a friend of hers who was at Brossard's clinic for her surgery.  She said her friend had a much more difficult time with healing and pain than anyone else in the clinic, because she was a smoker.  Smoking has a definite effect on the body's ability to heal, and in an operation like this, that is critical.  So... the patient has a lot of variables within their control as well...

I have chosen Dr. Nguyen from Lake Owego.  He does a two stage,and is about the same price of most Doctors.  Because most US Doctors have you stay in some kind of hotel, I chose Doctor N. because I can recoup at home.  Which is a plus.

On my short list would be Brassard and possibly others, not that I know who they are yet.  I keep thinking of Supporn.  Yet, my thoughts keep coming back to Dr. Gary Alter, as he is close to where I live.  Going there would mean no hotels or even long hospital stays.  There would be no transportation bills either, which all adds to cost.

That being said, it should be quality that is the most important, not price.

Quote from: sarahla on December 02, 2010, 02:51:34 PM
I saw Marcie Bowers photos. She does not have consistent results from the photos that I have seen.

No kidding. Human bodies are UNIQUE. If you're expecting 'consistent' results from ANY surgeon then he/she would need to be working on clones.
I think your expectations are extremely unrealistic, to say the least.

QuoteThe point is that information is scarce and patchy at best.

Hey, whadya know, we belong to a marginalised group of people who have poor care worldwide and whose medical treatment is still in it's precocious childhood! Welcome to being trans. Try the veal.
And if you think OUR surgery results are inconsistent and unnatural, the trans guy beside me replies with "Boo fricken hoo".