You realize that there are places that are forced to teach the biblical account of creation along side the modern scientific cosmology, in a science course, as if both are equally valid?

Check this out, it would be hysterical if they didn't believe it's true.

http://creationmuseum.org/
Adam and Eve live in the Garden of Eden. Children play and dinosaurs roam near Eden's Rivers. The serpent coils cunningly in the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil.

From the NYT review:
Two prehistoric children play near a burbling waterfall, thoroughly at home in the natural world. Dinosaurs cavort nearby, their animatronic mechanisms turning them into alluring companions, their gaping mouths seeming not threatening, but almost welcoming, as an Apatosaurus munches on leaves a few yards away.

What is this, then? A reproduction of a childhood fantasy in which dinosaurs are friends of inquisitive youngsters? The kind of fantasy that doesn't care that human beings and these prefossilized thunder-lizards are usually thought to have been separated by millions of years?
http://www.nytimes.com/2007/05/24/arts/24crea.html


And we wonder why our math and science scores are slipping.

Of course, not being content with that, they are now planning a 'full size' reconstruction of Noah's Ark.

http://www.thenewamerican.com/index.php/culture/family/5467-planned-noahs-ark-theme-park-in-kentucky-draws-praise-criticism
Got to love this comment: We are making plans to go and visit. All those 'educated people with science backgrounds' CAN move to one of the other great states we have. 

Y'all can't have it both ways.

To those who encourage debate and dialogue I do have to say that, from personal experience, whilst this may sound like a good idea in theory, in reality it is often simply impossible.

I don't think deliberate confrontation is a good idea either, but sometimes it is necessary to draw a line in the sand and say "thus far and no further" if only for ones own sanity.

My experience of discussion with people, holding what I regard as extreme religious views, was that they took it as a sign of weakness on my part that I was even willing to debate, and they then moved rapidly on to trying to obstruct, delay, and generally hinder my passage.

Admittedly for me it all happened a very long time ago, but my experience was that in order to make progress I had to draw down the shutters somewhat and make these people realise that I was already utterly beyond their redemption. Only then did they stop trying to "save" me from myself, which in practice meant throwing every available spanner that they had into my path.

I'm sure their efforts were well meant. Unfortunately for a few years all they succeeded in doing was painfully pulling me apart, somewhat to the horror of my non religious parents I may add. Ironically my parents always had actively supported my transition, and they regarded the interference of the religious folks that I had gotten involved with at University, almost as a form of psychological abuse!

So while I agree that you don't want to fall our needlessly with anyone, I still think that sometimes the best way to proceed is to make it abundantly clear that whilst they are welcome to their opinions, there is a vast difference between holding an opinion and sitting in Judgement.

Quote from: rejennyrated on December 10, 2010, 11:47:57 AM
So while I agree that you don't want to fall our needlessly with anyone, I still think that sometimes the best way to proceed is to make it abundantly clear that whilst they are welcome to their opinions, there is a vast difference between holding an opinion and sitting in Judgement.

That is a good point. Nobody is entitled to sit in judgement, though that does not prevent some from doing so.

I've never been faced or asked this question. Scripturally there's nothing in the bible that says that having a sex change is sinful. Unfortunately many folks believe this sort of logic without really investigating what the scriptures actually mean.

Gennee

I suppose if I could memorize enough of it I'd rattle off this list of sins, or at least the ones that we can safely assume "most" people have committed.

Quote from: rejennyrated on December 10, 2010, 11:47:57 AM
To those who encourage debate and dialogue I do have to say that, from personal experience, whilst this may sound like a good idea in theory, in reality it is often simply impossible.

{snip}

So while I agree that you don't want to fall our needlessly with anyone, I still think that sometimes the best way to proceed is to make it abundantly clear that whilst they are welcome to their opinions, there is a vast difference between holding an opinion and sitting in Judgement.

I would respectfully disagree with the first part but agree with the second part.  I firmly believe that if two people really want to dialog, they can.  Most people, in my experience, who claim this is impossible have come across a situation where one or the other (or both) simply do not want to.  And yes, I have had quite a lot of experience in the realm.  In the end, it is not even about agreeing.  It is certainly not about judgment.  It is, however, about respect.

Quote from: Kristi on December 11, 2010, 07:44:01 PM
I would respectfully disagree with the first part but agree with the second part.  I firmly believe that if two people really want to dialog, they can.  Most people, in my experience, who claim this is impossible have come across a situation where one or the other (or both) simply do not want to.  And yes, I have had quite a lot of experience in the realm.  In the end, it is not even about agreeing.  It is certainly not about judgment.  It is, however, about respect.

Indeed as you say both must want to have one - but for a dialogue to have a useful purpose I submit that the two parties also need some willingness to either change point of view or have a desire to comprehend the others point of view otherwise that dialogue merely becomes the repeated re-statement of the same two fixed points, which ultimately seems rather futile.

Like you I too have some experience on this point even if from a different angle as it were. My experience is that whilst some people can indeed engage productively that is as I said often (I never said always) not the case.

I agree that Respect is a fine thing and something we should all aspire to hold for each other. However it needs to be reciprocal which can unfortunately be difficult to maintain when one party begins by arguing from a point of assumed innate superiority, namely that "I am saved and born again, whilst you are not and are therefore going to hell."

...and yes - I understand that none of this should ever be seen as being about superiority or inferiority, "salvation by faith through grace" does of course imply that salvation is a gift of God, but unfortunately fallible human beings often do misconstrue their arguments and so I submit that often (not always) the best way to maintain mutual respect on this subject is not to engage in the first place.

On which note I will take my own advice in regard to the ongoing debate and declare my contribute done. I respectfully withdraw from further engagement.

Have you asked them to point out where Jesus says anything on the subject?  I have never found any quotes on the subject.  the nearest I can come is eunuchs who are castrate for the glory of God.

Remember, the New Testament supercedes the Old, therefore the Deuteronomic rules no longer apply.If your parents wish to apply them, I would ask your father if he is circumcised, and if not, when is he going to be?  As for your mother, as she is almost certainly wearing mixed textiles such as a polyester-cotton blouse, you could ask here if she has any preference in the way she is to be killed.

If peple are going to apply the old rules, they can't pick and choose, otherwise they are hypocrites, and should therefore also suffer death. " So, maybe we should all just get along,eh?"

Quote from: tekla on December 08, 2010, 06:35:33 PM
Truth can be proved, it never asks to be taken 'on faith' - the only people who ask that of you are con-artists.  Its all a bunch of old stories, made up in superstitions by people who didn't even understand the rock they were sitting on when they wrote it.

I agree entirely.  Truth is truth because it exists apart from what we believe in.  If someone needs faith, it is only because their position is so weak that they cannot have real knowledge.  Faith is nothing but a strong obsession with conjecture.  Faith is only usefull if that conjecture is actually true.  Even then, faith is only usefull by coincidence.  Faith is never an adequate replacement for proper observational skills.

Truth has a funny way of existing despite our disbelieving it.  Fantasy has a funny way of not existing despite our believing in it.  Faith has a funny way of making us believe something despite the evidence against it.

Except we live in a world where fantasy is far more real than truth.

Quote from: tekla on December 15, 2010, 05:45:57 PM
Except we live in a world where fantasy is far more real than truth.

Fantasy isn't more real than truth, it's just more desirable.  Everybody wants the universe to be as they are, and not as it is.

Everybody wants the universe to be as they are, and not as it is.

Just give me one thing that I can hold on to
To believe in this living is just a hard way to go

Viewing the limited knowledge of your circumstances through the filter of my own experience, I would say this sounds like a lost cause.  So I suggest you think twenty or thirty years into the future after your parents have disowned you decades previously and gone to their graves, making it clear that you are unwelcome at their funerals, and go ahead and say all of the nasty, hateful things to them that they deserve to hear, and that you wish you had said while you had the chance.  OK, not really.  But you get the drift.

Quote from: glendagladwitch on December 15, 2010, 10:59:12 PM
Viewing the limited knowledge of your circumstances through the filter of my own experience, I would say this sounds like a lost cause.

It may be.  If they are 100% sure it is a sin, and nothing can convince them otherwise, then probably the best thing to do is move on.

If they aren't 100% sure - and you have the strength to do it - you may dialog.  But convincing someone who is already convinced of something is not where I'd spend my time.  It would be rather like trying to convert the Mormon missionaries when they come to your door - it probably isn't ever going to happen, as they are in the mindset of convincing you.  And simply living your life - without compromising your beliefs to please others, but remaining kind, loving, and calm - might be the best message you could send.  I'd also let them know that they have the choice of whether or not to remain in your life: they can follow your rules (things like, "You will not tell me I'm sinning, you will use the right name and/or pronouns, you will not bring people to dinner with me without asking me first, etc") or they can insist on their "rightness" and leave the relationship.  But put it back on them.  It's not your choice, it's theirs.

The issue is almost always that people are confusing trans with gay.  And then wrongly applying scripture to homosexuality.  Two errors at once.  The bigoted right-wing "cure gays" movement believe it is feminine men that become gay and masculine women that become lesbians.  Someone who is MTF for instance is really just a gay guy.  Related to this is that homosexuality is caused by either trauma or bad parenting.  If a person is gay, it's because he/she didn't have a strong bond with a same-sex parent, in the bigot's eyes.  As one bigot put it, "Fathers, hug your sons, or some other man will."  All of this is of course completely discredited and hogwash, but it's truly what they believe.  If this is what you're arguing against, you probably won't win.  If they don't think it was caused by trauma in your case, then, to make things even worse, that implies it was caused by THEM - so not only are you a sinner, but they are too - and bad parents to boot.  Finally, you may also be running into a parent that is a repressed homosexual - that typically makes someone *very* anti-gay (and, as mentioned above, this group of people often assumes trans and gay are the same thing).  There's a huge chance that accepting you will mean rejecting their current church, many of their friends and family, etc.  So there's a lot of things standing in their way.  None of this is an excuse for denying love to a child, of course, but sadly people do bigoted things sometimes, even to their own children.

If they are willing to actually talk, and perhaps actually change their mind, then I would ask them what rule they apply to determine what parts of the Bible are meant to be followed literally in this time and place.  Most people won't know the rule they use, but having a consistent way of differentiating the parts of scripture that are important today from the parts that were important historically is important.  So, if you are going to admit slavery was wrong (despite plenty of verses that allow slavery), polygamy was wrong, that a married man sins when he sleeps with an unmarried (and unengaged) non-virgin (this was NOT adultery!), that women can get short haircuts, that women can preach in a church, that divorce in cases of abuse (not one of the reasons allowed in the New Testament) is okay, etc, then I think you have to ask two questions: First, what scriptures are they trying to use, and second, why don't they fit their "rule" on what scriptures are important.  But this can be difficult, and only a few rare people will change their mind.

It's sad that people think Jesus came to stop people from having surgery.  Or to love others.

Great thread everyone!  I read through it all and learned quite a bit. 

One thing I wouldn't personally recommend is listing a bunch of silly rules from Deuteronomy and Leviticus in response to someone's opinion that you are sinning.  You are basically saying, 'hey look you sin too!, LOL' 

Since I do not believe I am sinning I think that argument is less than effective.  When you use it you are basically validating their point that you are sinning.  It doesn't matter if they are or not.  As God's perfect creation I am doing exactly what he intended for me to do.  I have complete confidence in this. 

I will be using Galatians 3:28 when I see the need.  Awesome verse.   

There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.   I like King James.  Sounds cooler, heh

Quote from: Squirrel698 on December 16, 2010, 01:26:14 PM
One thing I wouldn't personally recommend is listing a bunch of silly rules from Deuteronomy and Leviticus in response to someone's opinion that you are sinning.  You are basically saying, 'hey look you sin too!, LOL' 

I think that depends on how you list the rules.  I think most Christians would say that the law in Deuteronomy and Leviticus is no longer applicable to Christians.  For instance, eating a cheeseburger is not a sin for a Christian.  So I would point someone quoting the law over to Hebrews, which pretty much demolishes the argument that Christians should follow the law.  But if that wasn't sufficient, I'd probably list a few rules of the law and ask if violating them made someone a sinner today.

Basically, I'd use them to show that "sin" is different than "going against the old-testament law", as Christians can accept that point.

I'd also suggest that the verses they are quoting probably don't mean what they think they mean, but when I can say, "Regardless, even if they did mean what you thought, they are irrelevant and do not apply," I think that makes a stronger case.

Now if I just did what I see a lot of people doing and say, "Well, you're a sinner too because you eat shellfish," then I think I would be implying both being trans and eating shellfish was sinful - when neither is in the Christian worldview.

What I don't think would work for most Christians is to simply say, "I think those verses are wrong because I don't like them."  You have to give a reason - and that they clearly don't apply today, because of Hebrews (positive confirmation that they do not apply) and because the Church does not see many "law violators" as sinful, such as the guy eating a lobster (negative confirmation that shows that application of the law would be absurd).  In otherwords, depending on who you are talking with, there is both ways to show that your view is correct (Hebrews) and that their view is wrong (inconsistency in their application of the old testament law), while also showing the (I believe) correct interpretation of the law - that we are set free from it as Christians and do not need to be bound by ANYTHING there, regardless of our personal interpretation of individual verses of the law.

I hope that distinction makes sense.

Quote from: glendagladwitch on December 15, 2010, 10:59:12 PM
Viewing the limited knowledge of your circumstances through the filter of my own experience, I would say this sounds like a lost cause.  So I suggest you think twenty or thirty years into the future after your parents have disowned you decades previously and gone to their graves, making it clear that you are unwelcome at their funerals, and go ahead and say all of the nasty, hateful things to them that they deserve to hear, and that you wish you had said while you had the chance.  OK, not really.  But you get the drift.

*like*

I had a saying that helped me get through life. Still does, in fact.

"God will not test us beyond our ability to endure."

Tell them that you view this as a trial from God: Will you be true to your own self, or follow anothers way?

You could just play the Dixie Chicks for them.

He pushed me 'round
now I'm drawin' the line
He lived his life
now I'm gonna go live mine
I'm sick on wastin' my time
Well now I've been good for way too long
Found my red dress and I'm gonna throw it on
'Bout to get too far gone

Praise the Lord and pass the ammunition
Need a little bit more of my tweleve ounce nutrition
One more helpin' of what I've been havin'
I'm takin' my turn on the sin wagon

On a mission to make something happen
Feel like Delilah lookin' for Samson
Do a little mattress dancin'
That's right I said mattress dancin'

Praise the Lord and pass the ammunition
Need a little bit more
of what I've been missin'
I don't know where I'll be crashin'
But I'm arrivin' on a sin wagon

When it's my turn to march up to old glory
I'm gonna have one hell of a story
That's if he forgives me
Oh, lord please forgive me

Praise the Lord and pass the ammunition
Need a little bit more of that sweet salvation
They may take me
with my feet draggin'
But I'll fly away on a sin wagon

I'll fly away on a sin wagon

I guess it depends on whether they know your religious beliefs.

If they are christo-fundies who don't know your beliefs, you could reassure  them that the Ayatollah Khomeni issued a fatwa years ago stating that SRS is a part of revealing the God's truth in the world!!  (Hence the Shia accepting transsexuals while still considering homosexuality as a sin.)

Then ask if they have ever considered converting to Islam.  I know it is wrong to mess with the heads of the wilfully ignorant, but sometimes I just can't help it.