Having been the injured spouse as a result of a cheating spouse.  It causes the feelings of mistrust, even if you forgive as I did. 

Regardless of why one cheats, someone gets hurt.  If your marriage is so bad you need to cheat, get out of it.  It does still hurt but it will heal better of time.  I no longer trust a partner, because of what a spouse did to our marriage.  Even if it was because I am Trans, it still hurts just as bad.

So, if divorce is imminent...

1. Move out.
2. Find a really good attorney.  Maybe Kat will represent you.
3. Finalize the divorce.
4. Enjoy the life Tiger now enjoys, except with a bit less money.

DO NOT MOVE OUT - that looks like abandonment in court, make the other person move out.

Quote from: Jennifer on December 11, 2010, 01:10:00 PM
That's all I really meant to say. Sorry that I got so emotional about it.   Obviously a hot button issue with me. But hey, excellent discussion everyone. And like Roxy said, "You are truly a wonderful group of people".

Jennifer

I wouldn't worry. I have the luxury of a stable ultra long term "marriage" and some distance to my view. It is much less easy to be so relaxed when you may be going through other pressures of your own at the time.

I really do appreciate all of your comments. It's been a bit of a reality check for me. I posted it on here because i probably wanted your support for my relationship with my TS friend and i thought I was more likely to get that here than anywhere else.
I'm not proud of my behaviour towards my wife but I can't help my feelings. My new friend makes me feel loved and important which is something that i have not felt in my marriage for many years. I'm not trying to justify my actions but i would point out that we have not slept together for 7 years or so, we have separate rooms, we are good friends but nothing more.
Perhaps I shouldn't be doing this to a good friend, but on the other hand we're a long time dead. Am I any clearer ? Probably not. Maybe I'm leaning a bit more towards the importance of family and marriage but I know as soon as I see her again it will all change. I really am in turmoil, i don't expect your sympathy but I do appreciate the comments that you have posted.

I know I'm young and not married and probably not fit to include myself in this conversation, (especially since it seems over) but I just wanted to say a couple things.

- I'm not even going to comment on the cheating. From your very first post, you seemed like you knew where you stood on that, and it's not the reason you posted in the first place.

- I don't want to say that you are disillusioning yourself, because I have no idea. I don't know you, or your wife, or your partner. If you're feeling all this, and you've thought it through, and you still feel the same, then this is not you tricking yourself or just being confused. When you're with a person intimately, and you feel that connection, (especially under said circumstances) it's probably real. Don't downgrade it. Don't put it on a pedestal it doesn't deserve. Just go with it, whatever it is.

- You were saying that you were unsure how others would react to it. How your wife will feel. I've found that even if it seems late to tell someone the truth, life ends up worse when you never tell them the truth. I can't even imagine how hard it will be, but I feel like when the hard part is over, you'll be grateful that you eventually told her what was really going on. It will help the both of you get on with your lives. She deserves it, you deserve it.

I have so much hope that everyone turns out okay in your situation. At this point, the damage was already done. No amount of lecturing or arguing from anyone will make it go away. All you can do is try to make it better, let each others lives change, and be cautious in the future. Just be sure you are sure. You only have one life. You need to do what's best for you. Do your best to make it better for others of course, but you are the one living your life.

Good luck. There are always people here willing to talk.

Quote from: tekla on December 11, 2010, 01:17:28 PM
DO NOT MOVE OUT - that looks like abandonment in court, make the other person move out.

Does this mean you are accepting the case?

No, but he should find one, like yesterday.

Quote from: rejennyrated on December 11, 2010, 10:15:20 AMI am sorry but I really do regard marriage as any other solemn promise.  To set it up on some sort of unique pedestal is frankly to have a severely selective morality in regard to the value of your solemn word. To my eyes it is hugely simplistic. The truth is no solemn promise should ever be broken, by anyone, for any reason, but in the real world they are broken all too frequently.

I will only add one more thing.  Yes, marriage is a solemn promise.  It is a contract, just as any other solemn promise is.  And contracts must be abided by, or else ended equitably.  A contract in force does not imply immutability - a contract by its very nature is a finite thing.  This is not to say a contract can be easily or lightly discarded, there are obligations that must be met in the ending of a contract.  And even the Church (I'm speaking of the Roman Catholic Church, but many others take a similar view) admits that there are circumstances in which a marriage can, indeed should, be ended.  And there are laws and rules about that, both in the Church and in secular society.

However, that being said, while IN a contract, its terms must be respected.  Cheating is NOT the same thing as discovering that the basis of the contract is void and finding a way to end the contract so that both sides can retain some dignity and have their needs fulfilled.  Not the same thing at all.  I'm not lily-white myself in that regard, so I do have some experience to go by.  But when I took a look at the life I was leading, I realized I couldn't look in the mirror and like the person that looked back.  So I undertook to live a life of integrity.  Unfortunately, taking that to its logical conclusion, in my case, meant facing up to something about myself that I had been terrified to face in the past.  And in facing up to that, I realized that I could not live with integrity as a man, because that is not who I am.  So I am doing what I can to ensure that not only can I be who I am, but that the people in my life are also respected and their needs met as well as possible.  I am not simply abandoning my responsibilities.

Quote from: ponty on December 11, 2010, 01:25:25 PM....loved and important which is something that i have not felt in my marriage for many years. I'm not trying to justify my actions but i would point out that we have not slept together for 7 years or so, we have separate rooms, we are good friends but nothing more.

Okay, now this introduces a different angle, not previously brought into the discussion.

If your wife simply will not share physical and emotional intimacy with you for whatever reason, indefinitely, some might argue that you have a certain right to pursue these elsewhere.

Adopting that position for the simple sake of discussion, I still think it's best if your wife signs off on your extramarital pursuits. She just might.

She does not have the right to condemn you to a sexless life, no matter what circumstance may have led up to it.

If you have no other reasonable options, then cheat. But pursue whatever reasonable options are available for pursuit, if only for your own well-being.

Are you okay with your wife having relations with others outside your marriage?

Once again I find myself inclined to suggest Dan Savage's Savage Love podcast, which deals with such matters. You can even call & leave a voice mail soliciting advice (but leave a phone number so he can call back with questions).

I do not envy the difficult situation you describe. If you look under the hood, you'll find that members of this forum typically deal with some very delicate and painful challenges of our own.

Ponty,

I do not know about your personal situation or that of your trans friend towards whom you are interested.

However, if you truly love your trans friend, try to find out if she likes to be seen as trans or as female. If I were her, I would not prefer to be referred to as trans by a cis-gender (ie. non- trans) person. I would want to be seen and referred to as female only. Many of us transition to be known as female, not as trans (transgender, transexual, etc). You might want to find out more about her and stop seeing her as a once-male-now-female, ie. trans, woman. Ignore the trans history. She is just another woman.

Once you begin to see her as a woman, and not as a trans woman, you should be able to see things clearer. You are falling for a woman who is not your wife. Now how would you solve the issue?

Quote from: Janet Lynn on December 11, 2010, 12:45:48 PMIf your marriage is so bad you need to cheat, get out of it.

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
This.

Quote from: ponty on December 10, 2010, 06:38:32 PM
but the benefits would surely outweigh the prejudices i would face, wouldnt they ?

I think you need to tell your wife what's been going on whether or not you pursue anything with this other woman. And if you decide not to come clean, then you should probably divorce her either way as well. ...for her sake.

Quote from: Valeriedances on December 11, 2010, 04:05:44 PM
The reality is there is significant prejudice and it is an issue for SO's, which Ponty is contemplating being.

Ponty, you may want to read the Significant Other section of the forum, if you havent already, to get an idea of what SO's face.

Yes we suffer many prejudices but do we also suffer prejudices of others lack of being able to love us in spite of them?

Just to respond to a post on here and a private message I have received

You probably came here thinking that you would be thought of as a wonderful male who can love a TS woman without prejudice!

No, I didn't at all. I came here because I have an issue in my life to deal with and the fact that the woman I am seeing is post op TS I thought it was a relevant place to post. It was obvious to me that I  would receive more constructive comment on here than on any other website.

However, if you truly love your trans friend, try to find out if she likes to be seen as trans or as female. I would want to be seen and referred to as female only. Ignore the trans history. She is just another woman.
Once you begin to see her as a woman, and not as a trans woman, you should be able to see things clearer. You are falling for a woman who is not your wife. Now how would you solve the issue?

I do look upon my friend as a woman, 100% woman, I know of her past and have no problems with it, I never knew her pre op which has probably helped me personally. I only refer to her as TS as it is relevant to  the site that we are on. To me she is a beautiful loving and caring woman.

Hi, Ponty,

I'm curious to learn where online you met 'the other woman.'  I'm not intending to be catty in referring to her as that, for unless and until you give both her and your wife their dignity, your new lady-friend will be 'the other woman', 'the mistress', or what have you.

Sooooo....more thoughts to ponder:  What is 'love'?   What combination of attraction, attachment, affection, desire, enjoyment of another's company and fulfillment of unmet needs causes you to label this as true love? Again, not being obnoxious, as these are questions I seriously began asking myself a couple months ago.  Another is the acknowledgment that there are MANY beautiful people in the world with whom we may share things in common....but that doesn't mean we're meant to be with all of them.  And there's chemistry, too....in the heat of your new emotions and the thrill of trying not to be found out, and the possible feelings of solidarity to increase your bonding as you endure possible future adversity together  .... Well, leaves a lot of dust to settle before you two will discover whether this is a passing wave or a sure thing.

if you have marriages to address then address them. let the dust settle and maybe even think of exploring the rest of the world a little bit as a free man before getting too deep with your new friend.  I know it's hard to pause something you've started, but in the end I think it will work out better for everyone if you do it that way.  I'm not necessarily saying that divorce is the way to go, but by your own post it seems that that's what you want. ( a topic of interest which you and others may want to explore on a totally different thread is the viewpoint on marriage by neale donald walsh, as presented in his conversations with god books)

if your friend indeed identifies as female and not trans, you need not fear the reaction of the family or the public, unless you out her,  which would not be a very respectful thing to do anyway. 

Just my thoughts for whatever they're worth.

Best wishes,
Valerie

Ponty, First I would like to say, I am so glad I'm not in your shoes. I've played around, but with the wifes consent, only! We had an open relationship, and thankfully the relationship has been closed now for awhile. My advice is simple, tread lightly and learn from the reprocussions. You made your bed, now sleep in it.

Marriage is a seriously flawed contract.  The idea that how two people feel towards each other at some point in their life means they will always feel the same way is ridiculous.  Sure, it happens, but it's rare.

Marriage is a legal contract.  If you break it, the other party can sue.  I have a hard time calling that sacred.  The belief in everlasting love is great for movies and novels but in real life it's a fantasy.  Sure, it happens, but it's rare.

Marriage, as it is seen by many religions today, is outdated, antiquated and needs to be revamped.  For starters, eliminate the "til death do you part" from the vow.  Work needs to be done on the legal end too.

If Ponty feels the marriage has run it's course, it's better to get out than remain in an unhappy relationship.  Too many people do that and sometimes things end very badly.  If you can't stand the heat, get out of the kitchen. 

And the whole self-sacrifice thing, forget it!  You won't be rewarded later by hanging in there and being miserable now.  You will be seen as the same jerk if you leave now as you will if you leave later.  People cry "SELFISH!" the moment we stop giving them what they want.  Don't let that run your life. 

You're 51.  The clock is ticking.  If you're not enjoying life now, when will you start?

Quote from: Julie Marie on December 12, 2010, 09:35:28 AM
Marriage is a seriously flawed contract.  The idea that how two people feel towards each other at some point in their life means they will always feel the same way is ridiculous.  Sure, it happens, but it's rare.

Marriage is a legal contract.  If you break it, the other party can sue.  I have a hard time calling that sacred.  The belief in everlasting love is great for movies and novels but in real life it's a fantasy.  Sure, it happens, but it's rare.

Marriage, as it is seen by many religions today, is outdated, antiquated and needs to be revamped.  For starters, eliminate the "til death do you part" from the vow.  Work needs to be done on the legal end too.

If Ponty feels the marriage has run it's course, it's better to get out than remain in an unhappy relationship.  Too many people do that and sometimes things end very badly.  If you can't stand the heat, get out of the kitchen. 

And the whole self-sacrifice thing, forget it!  You won't be rewarded later by hanging in there and being miserable now.  You will be seen as the same jerk if you leave now as you will if you leave later.  People cry "SELFISH!" the moment we stop giving them what they want.  Don't let that run your life. 

You're 51.  The clock is ticking.  If you're not enjoying life now, when will you start?

Took the words right out of my mouth. It's not too late to do what you need and want to do.