With HRT coming up relatively soon for me.. somethings been simmering on my mind - really the only thing that I would let hold me back from transitioning.

Is transexuality deliberately walking in sin? I've read lots of articles and sermons that view the topic from either way, most pointing to the fact that God has made us either Male or Female.. and since that's how we're made that's how we should be - even though they recognize that someone with GID will suffer living as born. I've read articles where they support detransitioning, recognizing it will be brutally hard for the rest of their life because there is a real issue here.. but they need to live with and fight the issue and live as their birth sex. These viewpoints also say that even though there are proven brain differences and such - they do not matter - what matters is organs at time of birth. And pretending to be anything else/SRS is just a visual delusion, you're still the man you were born or whateber.

But then how does intersexuality fit into this. Are they going to deny testosterone to males that are incaple of producing there own? Are they going to deny an individual at a chance of getting a limb if they weren't born with one.. just because that is how God created them?

I've read other articles where it says that being trans is okay - because one should make no drastic changes (as long as it's not deliberately sinning) after they have joined the church (something from Apostle Paul). However.. how does this fit with my view point that I'm already a Christian and have been for years, does this just mean I should shut up and continue to suffer as female?

Honestly I'm not worried about what other people think, I can deal with them.. but I do believe in God and in Heaven.. and in Jesus saying that the path is narrow, and many will try but few will get in.. and all that stuff.

I've read about many trans that have detransitioned not because of social pressure but because they felt that it was against Gods way, but then I know trans that are ministers, and trans that said they could live a proper spiritual life in their birth sex..

It's so mixed and in the end I need to make a decision for myself on this I know. No one can tell me what is right or wrong when it comes to this topic.. however.. any one else dealt with this issue?

To add even more into the mix on doubt.

I attended bible college for a year, small school. That year was the only year that I didn't really have trouble with gender, or depression, or anxiety. There wasn't really any differentiation on gender there, everyone could do everything other then a few fun girls or boys nights out. There was no pressure for relationships. It was just about living in community with others. It was a very small group and it was a place where I felt I could just be me without judgement.. I wa relatively masciline there.. and people didn't care.. however I was not out as trans - as during that time... the trans thing wasn't an issue for me?

The only other time I've really felt that way is now living full time as male. I'm able to make good friends again, and live in community with others, and be bold, and anxiety and depression free.

When not in either situation.. just being a female in the average world holding onto faith.. depression, anxiety, suicidal, etc. etc. shy.. very socialy anxious, couldn't connect with people..


So I mean.. I spose I could go live in a christian commune that doesn't look at gender, doesn't force relationships.. and likely be happy. But I also kinda have doubts that those places exist outside of my little bible college bubble.. and I want to be in a relationship, and in a relationship I can only see myself as being male, I can't see being female in a relationship.

*SIGH*

Gah I almost wish I didn't believe in God.. because there would be nothing stopping me from transitioning.. but this whole religion thing makes me feel like I'm maybe supposed to live my life in agony.. as female.

You can choose science or superstition, but in the end you can't have both.  If all your prayers don't work, and you have to resort to science to make you whole, just how powerful is/was your god anyway?

P.S.  Paul was the Sara Palin of Xanity.

So Paul is an right wing idiot that no one should pay attention to? Sorry that's how I see Sarah.

I donno, maybe science is the answer to GID in terms of transition. Maybe God has made this avaiable as an answer to these struggles.

I beleive that God gives people challenges to figure their ways through to make them a stronger and more complete person. But does that mean that I struggle through transition (which many christians view as immoral) or does that mean I should struggle at finding the feminine me. O_o.

Gah. This topic stresses me out.. because I've worked my way through all other doubts I have, and just as I'm feeling all good about heading onto HRT.. this topic pops up into my range of thinking.

I was thinking more like Paul prostituted Xianiaty in the same way the Sara prostitutes the conservative cause, for personal ego.

There are a lot of different ways to see the bible and Christianity. Maybe try finding a non denominational church. There are some that are very glbt friendly. Maybe seeing people like you who are gay, trans, and the like together in prayer might help you. They also might have a lot to say on the issue. Just a suggestion.

I'm struggling with this myself and should follow my own advice but I guess I'm just hoping that the God I know loves me for me and wouldn't condemn me for making myself sane and happy. 

I know a lot of trans and gay people of faith though, even a trans minister. Gah... but yeah. Sigh. It still eats away at me. Noestly I think it's from growing up in a culture that says trans is wrong. If I had grown up in a culture/church that said trans was right I don't think I'd be having any doubts here right now, and I probably would have come out along time ago. But sighh


also what do people think of this? Is it some kind of evil desire to be male? Not that this has anything to do with being queer specifically.. but it's a verse that people apply to the issue. But then there are verses saying eunechs are okay - and alot of guys became eunechs voluntarily.


James 1

12 Blessed is the one who perseveres under trial because, having stood the test, that person will receive the crown of life that the Lord has promised to those who love him.

13 When tempted, no one should say, "God is tempting me." For God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does he tempt anyone; 14 but each person is tempted when they are dragged away by their own evil desire and enticed. 15 Then, after desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, gives birth to death

Or this - old testament - outdated I know

A woman must not wear men's clothing, nor a man wear women's clothing, for the Lord your God detests anyone who does this" (Deuteronomy 22:5).


or this one (appears homosexuality is some kind of punishment?)

Romans 1:18–32

God's Wrath Against Mankind

18 The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of men who suppress the truth by their wickedness, 19 since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. 20 For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse.

21 For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22 Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools 23 and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made to look like mortal man and birds and animals and reptiles.

24 Therefore God gave them over in the sinful desires of their hearts to sexual impurity for the degrading of their bodies with one another. 25 They exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator—who is forever praised. Amen.

26 Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural relations for unnatural ones. 27 In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed indecent acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their perversion.



Gah i'm so lost. I know it's something I need to come to terms with between me and God.

but really... anyone else dealt with this?

hmm interesting reading.. I like the way this person thinks. Kinda along the same lines as me.

http://www.tsroadmap.com/mental/spirit.html

I believe so differently than you all seem to. I feel the answer to this question is very obvious.

Man is of three parts. The physical body we can see and touch. The soul which animates us as well as animals, and spirit. God is spirit not flesh. It is the spirit part that is in his image. The bible tells you over and over that god is spirit so how can the flesh be made in his image.

Image was never brought into this good sir. I believe the same as you in that regards. I don't believe God is male or female but rahter both in spirit. Still, most of us are born into one of 2 distinct sexes (notice I didn't say all of us).. and crossing over that physical sex seems to be the main issue that I'm running into.

Like most people, I can't tell you anything for certain. We have free will and that means, ultimately, we make up our own minds.

But I will tell you how I resolved this and many other issues I had with God.

I read the Gospels.

To me, the message of Jesus is that we must obey the 10 commandments.

Jesus effectively put aside all the other laws, that had built up, with his injunctions, that we must not kill and that we must never judge each other, on behalf of God. (The 6th and 3rd commandments).

Jesus then clarified a number of other commandments. In particular, he made it clear that there is no compulsion to attend church.

There are many different groups, all claiming to follow the true teachings. Many that claim to follow the Bible exactly. Others that seek to maintain what they believe are standards.

Then there are a number of additions, from subsequent preachers, St Paul for example, who also add bits on, women must wear a hat and be silent, for example.

I take everything, other than that which Jeaus taught as local innovation. People are free to follow these notions, but only the teachings of Jesus are paramount.

So, I know that God has given us the gift of intelegence and that we have used it to create many wonderful things. I also accept that, with our intelegence and our faith, we have developed our society so that is a very different sort of life than that which people endured in the past.

I see no reason why I should not adjust any aspect of my own life, provided I don't go against the commandments.

Nowhere in the Bible does it say that you'll go to hell if you're a transsexual.  It does say, however, that eating shellfish is an abomination.     Not eating shrimp seems to be the more important issue in the Bible, since it was mentioned at all.

As far as God detesting someone who wears clothes of the opposite sex...I thought God was supposed to love everyone?  If you detest someone, there's not a lot of love there.

Jesus never mentioned anything at all about the clothes issue, as far as I know.

FWIW, I stopped believing in the Bible a few years ago.  As a teenager I worried myself sick over whether I was "right with God".  I finally decided if it was that important to God, he'd let me know, and if he was there, he'd let me know.

Meh God's let me know he's there over other issues. I shoulda been dead multiple times, in way worse shape etc. He's answered off prayers before. The chances of all this stuff happening randomely has to be 1in trillion.. with the odds I have had over so many life circumstances, I have to believes he's there with me.

Quote from: jmaxley on December 09, 2010, 07:14:30 AM
Nowhere in the Bible does it say that you'll go to hell if you're a transsexual.  It does say, however, that eating shellfish is an abomination.     Not eating shrimp seems to be the more important issue in the Bible, since it was mentioned at all.

Eating shellfish is such an abomination.  For that matter, so is this:  menstruation, beating your slaves to death, using false measures, and eating pork.

I am glad to say that I do not like shellfish.

I'm a cis-male (apologies if that's inappropriate terminology here) and a Christian.

First, the Bible says absolutely nothing about being trans.  NOTHING.

Second, I'd say that male and female were created in God's image.  And female is not "less" in God's image than male (it's not like "Female is like God, except for not having a penis" or garbage like that).  If both are equally in God's image, that implies something about God's sex organs...and also implies perhaps that the garbage taught today about gender roles in the church, with men being leaders, women being servants, and, thus, God being male, is perhaps bad theology.  To be blunt, I don't expect that God has or desires a penis.  Or a vagina.  He's neither and both male and female.

Many Jewish scholars believe Adam was intersexed - that everything woman was in Adam and everything male was in Adam, which is how Eve was created "from Adam's body".

Quote from: Tad on December 07, 2010, 01:20:54 AM
I know a lot of trans and gay people of faith though, even a trans minister. Gah... but yeah. Sigh. It still eats away at me. Noestly I think it's from growing up in a culture that says trans is wrong.

Yes, exactly.  It's culture, not theology.

Quote from: Tad on December 07, 2010, 01:20:54 AM
also what do people think of this? Is it some kind of evil desire to be male? Not that this has anything to do with being queer specifically.. but it's a verse that people apply to the issue. But then there are verses saying eunechs are okay - and alot of guys became eunechs voluntarily.

Do you feel you are a female BECOMING male, or do you feel that you are already male, perhaps also desiring your body to reflect the truth within?  If you see yourself as male, then how can making the outside reflect the heart be wrong?

Quote from: Tad on December 07, 2010, 01:20:54 AM
Or this - old testament - outdated I know

A woman must not wear men's clothing, nor a man wear women's clothing, for the Lord your God detests anyone who does this" (Deuteronomy 22:5).

It says a lot of things in the old testament we don't do today.  I haven't put a railing up on my roof (Deut 22:, many farmers plant two kinds of seeds in fields (Deut 22:9), I don't mind linen/wool blends (Deut 22:10), and I have nothing with tassles on my garments (Deut 22:11).  This is just in the 22nd chapter of Deuteronomy.  The way a wife who is supposedly not an "intact" virgin is treated is pretty ugly.  Deut 22:22 supports death in cases of adultery (defined in the Bible as a man sleeping with a married woman - not the other way around ever).  Deut 22:24 has you stone women who were raped if they can't stop the rape by screaming.  Deut 22:29-30 says that if you rape a non-engaged virgin woman, she is forced to marry you.

If someone is going to say Deut 22:5 is important, but then be willing to disregard almost everything else in that chapter because it doesn't apply outside of the culture it was given to, I'd say they are using a very bad bible interpretation method.  You have to be consistent.  I'd say Deut 22:5 is not applicable to our society for the same reason that the rest of the chapter is not.

Quote from: Tad on December 07, 2010, 01:20:54 AM
or this one (appears homosexuality is some kind of punishment?)

Romans 1:18–32

God's Wrath Against Mankind

18 The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of men who suppress the truth by their wickedness, 19 since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. 20 For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse.

21 For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22 Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools 23 and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made to look like mortal man and birds and animals and reptiles.

24 Therefore God gave them over in the sinful desires of their hearts to sexual impurity for the degrading of their bodies with one another. 25 They exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator—who is forever praised. Amen.

26 Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural relations for unnatural ones. 27 In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed indecent acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their perversion.

First, we don't really know what this was talking about in verse 26/27.  But that said, even if it was talking about homosexuality as we now it (very unlikely actually - it was likely talking about pagan religious rites, not committed love between two consenting adults), it is talking about heterosexuals that were forced to lust after people they didn't naturally lust after.  This is not the experience of any gay person I know - they aren't being forced to be attracted to the same sex, having previously been attracted to the opposite sex, as is described in this verse.

Quote from: Tad on December 07, 2010, 01:20:54 AM
Gah i'm so lost. I know it's something I need to come to terms with between me and God.

but really... anyone else dealt with this?

Sadly, yes, lots of people have to deal with this.

I don't agree to throw out Paul as a bigot.  But I do think you have to be careful in reading Paul (or any other Bible books), to make sure that you understand the context and culture it was written in.  Paul certainly wasn't writing about transgender people or even committed marriage between same-sex people - these weren't concepts that he would have even considered in his culture.  In his culture, it made no sense for two men or two women to marry - who would be in charge (this is also the reason why Biblical polygamy always has only one man involved)?  Who would own the women?

Today, we're smart enough - even in the church (grin) - to see that women are hardly property.  But they absolutely were in the old testiment.  Read the commandment about coveting your neighbor's wife - you'll see that the commandment inserted her between two items of property, because she WAS property.  You'll also not find any commandment against a man sleeping with multiple women (Martin Luther actually supported polygamy, so this wasn't just ancient Christianity) - but today we see that as immoral, because we have a different view of women.

I would leave you with this: Galations 3:28: "There is neither Jew nor Gentile, neither slave nor free, nor is there male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus."  This was written by Paul.

If male or female roles don't matter for salvation and our relationship with Christ, why would they matter for anything less important?  Too many people want to make it "Faith in the Lord saves you, as long as you also ..."  Anyone trying to add on to what the Lord requires for salvation, and who tries to deny the freedom we have in Christ by laying regulations on top of it, is changing the Gospel from the "Good News" to the "Book of Rules".  You get false gospels like, "These three remain: Faith, Heterosexuality, and Republicans" rather than "These three remain: Faith, Hope, and Love."

Sadly, this view is in contrast to most churches in the American tradition.  So this will make it hard to find a good church.  Many churches I've seen that have good stances on homosexuality and gender have really weak intellectual rigor when it comes to looking at the scriptures, which is sad and unfortunate.  Know that if you walk in contradiction to the American tradition of Christianity, you will face a lot of hate from people claiming to follow Christ but acting very un-Christlike.  It's a very hard road.  But I believe it to be right and honoring to my savior.  You'll have to come to a decision, though - and it's going to be hard.  You will have to follow the Christ you know.  Not the Christ you were taught to believe in, no matter how well intentioned the teaching was.  After all, it was taught through humans.

He came to give people new life - is there not a better metaphor for that than to see someone live as the person God created them to be, even though the world may want to force them into a different mold?

Thanks Slanan, same conclusions I had come to. I've been feeling settled on this matter for a little while now, except for dealing with the unnaccepting relgious people.. that still love me but see this as wrong.

If identity resides in the brain, and your brain tells you you are a man, then you should be wearing what is regarded as stereotypically male clothing shouldn't you? So you are not cross-dressing.
Also, the 9th commandment says not to lie, so if you know you are a man you shouldn't allow society to make you pretend to be a woman either, should you.

Don't worry about it, God knows who you are, even if the religious bigots don't.

Gah. I got a few letters from some unnaccepting christian friends - who their opinions in the past have meant alot to me. And despite the fact that I had come to peace on the issue.. now I'm all like is this wrong and questioning again, and i can't tell if it's anxiety about dealing with these friends or conviction or my cold that's making me feel kinda grody. :/ But I feel like I'm losing it, I had a small desire to tell people I was female.. and it's just like omg. What's going on here, so now I'm all confused. After coming to peace with the whole issue, and having been in stealth with NONE of these kinda feelings... and all of a sudden this just hit.

Quote from: Tad on December 15, 2010, 11:24:00 AM
Gah. I got a few letters from some unnaccepting christian friends - who their opinions in the past have meant alot to me.

I have such friends too, and it is hard to give them up and/or maintain relationships with them.  Some who are willing to live with someone who disagrees with them (granted, it's much easier for me as a spouse than it would be for a trans person), some aren't.

In fact, a few years ago, I would have agreed with your friends - I would have KNOWN you were a sinner and that you were on the path t hell.  For me, actually knowing someone who didn't fit 'properly' into gender roles has changed my opinions on things.  In fact, I married her, with a religious wedding and the blessing of our church, and I count myself fortunate to be in a church that is willing to be open to us, as most people aren't - and that God gave me a chance to see my error.  But through knowing the person who became my wife, I was forced to actually question some of the things I was taught.  Either she was living a horrible, sinful life and was going to go to hell, or she was, as she claimed, Christian and living the life God had for her.  I believe her to be living the life of a Christian, having seen the fruit in her life.

I am amazed, looking back, at how much crap I just blindly believed in - at the expense of the gospel.  I have since realized that I wasn't consistent in my interpretation of the scriptures - I accepted the verses that fit my prejudices (including that homosexuality is sin), while rejecting ones that didn't fit my social views (such as verses that allow slavery - I already properly rejecting those).  A slave that ran away, according to the New Testament, was violating God's will.  I don't think I would say that every slave in America that escaped to freedom was a sinner that was violating the will of God - instead, I'd say that the slave holder was the one violating the will of God.  But my view is not based on any particular verse I can quote, but rather indirectly, based on the idea that God intended all of us to be equals through Christ.  In fact, someone could find TONS of verses that support slavery in the Bible (same with Polygamy).  It's important to figure out WHY those verses don't need to be applied literally today, but the verses on homosexuality do.

Some verses that "support" Slavery:

1 Corinthians 7:21,7:22 - Slaves should remain slaves, unless they can LAWFULLY gain their freedom (there was a provision in Jewish law to allow that)

Ephesians 6:5-8: Christ himself wants slaves to be "good slaves" according to this.

Ephesians 6:9: Words for masters of slaves - be a good master (but it does NOT say to free your slaves)

Colossians 3:22-23: Slaves, obey your masters!  That's God's will!

Colossians 4:1: Masters, treat your slaves right (not a command to free them, however).

1 Timothy 6:1: Slaves, obey your masters.

1 Timothy 6:2: Slaves should serve Christian masters even better than they would serve non-Christian masters.

Titus 2:9-10: Slaves should never talk back to their masters, they should respect them.

1 Peter 2:18: Slaves should submit to abusive masters

This is just the New Testament.  Sure, there are some verses that imply it's not great to have a slave, and you probably shouldn't do so, but clearly it wasn't a *sin* to have a slave.  Could you, in clear conscious, say that the slaves who escaped slavery via the underground railroad in the US, and those who helped them, were acting contrary to God?  It seems clear that a slave that ran away would be violating God's will, at least from a literal interpretation of the Bible.  If you can't say that they sinned by running away, why?  For me, I can say it because it is clear that people are all brothers and sisters, and brothers and sisters shouldn't own each other.  So I'm willing to - essentially - discard these verses because I think there is a principle that is more important: equal treatment of God's children.  Yet, I can't point to even one verse of scripture that prohibits slavery.  In fact, I can point to many verses that allow slavery - FAR more so than speak about homosexuality.  If you are going to be literal on verses about homosexuality, you have to be literal on verses about slavery, or at least have a reason why one chunk of scripture is "God's Word for today" and another chunk is not.  And that reason better not be able to equally apply to slaves and gay persons, because if it does you have to recognize that neither chunk applies to us today.

The reality is that most people haven't actually studied this - it's really just people who are passing down what they heard from someone else.  Sadly, there's often a political motivation that created the whole thing in the first place, but it later gets repeated as "fact" by an unknowing intermediary because "trustworthy" people said it.  This intermediary is, him or herself, trustworthy to others, so the chain goes on.

I'd suggest watching "Fish out of water" (the one made in 2009) if you can find it (it is available from Netflix), as that's the most intelligent response to the 7 "clobber" verses that I've seen (only 3 of which are in the New Testament, and none of the 3 were spoken by Jesus), and it's done in a very accessible way.  I'd also suggest checking out http://mlp.org/staticpages/index.php?page=biblicalinterp which is More Light Presbyterian's resource page on the Bible, although to be honest I think the movie does a better job.

Basically, there are tons of different interpretations of these 7 verses.  Yes, there's the common mainstream one which is "Gays go to hell".  But popularity doesn't make something right.  Of the 7 verses, several are from the old-testament law, and, thus, not applicable for that reason alone (the entire book of Hebrews deals with the subject of whether or not we live under the Jewish law since Jesus died).

I know you have a hard walk, whatever direction you walk down it.  Christianity isn't exactly popular among the LGBT community (understandably so - so much horrible abuse has occurred in the name of God), nor are trans-people popular among the Christian church.  And going through life living as someone you know you aren't isn't any easier, unfortunately.  Please stick it out - no matter what choice you make, or what people say.  God loves you, created you to bless the world (and maybe to even challenge the church a bit - prophets didn't typically tell people what they already believed!), and He takes great pleasure in your existence and life.  I suspect God has made you a very strong man, but it's still okay to need His help.  It is a very hard walk, and I will be praying for you to know that God is walking beside you, and is there to help whenever you need it.  I encourage other Christians here to do the same.  I'll also pray that you'll be able to live as the person God created you to be.

thansk Slanan. Gah I'm crying. Acceptance always makes me feel so good, and it's hard to come by.

With some searching this morning I realize that this funk is likely just from my old bible college friends rejections. They told me they still loved me and woule be rpaying for me, however I'd always be female to them no matter what I did, and while they didn't come out and say it was wrong, they said they couldn't agree with it either. But still, that hurt. It made me realize how divisions in the church happen. Different people believing different things. I had a professor in college that kinda taught on this whole thing, and taught us that each of us need to sort out our own slavation, and what is allowable for some might be not allowable for others. I tried to use this perspective with my friends.. and saying that I had found peace with God over this. I haven't heard back from them since on the issue.

Having a huge history of trying to be a people please - codependent to the world.. and hi9story with serious anxiety, I think that rejection like this has just been tearing down at me, even if I haven't been explicately paying too much attention to it, and creating a false guilt or conviction. Because it does not make sense that after these last 5 months of living full time and feeling no conviction whatsoever, and doors continually being opened in regards to transitioning.. that conviction would randomely hit one night after letters from friends saying no. I donno.. that didn't seem probable to me. So I've set this aside as a stress response to friends, and will continue on my way, always listening for God's guidance. Whatever the road, it will be tough... but that's life.

Anyhow, trying to come up with a middle name as I'm applying for name change in the next dew days. I was thinking of going with the family names Samuel Montgommery as 2 middle names.. but I think I might go for Daniel. Just kinda popped out at me today while I was thinking. Daniel means God is my judge - and in the end I stand accountable to God only, no one else. Daniel also suffered through persecution etc. He is someone to be admired.


OBTW, thanks for th eprayer