So, I'm not gonna lie.  I'm a smidge drunk right now.  But not so much that I'm totally gone or anything.  Anyhoo...I think that now more than ever, I intend to present male once I lose weight.  I'm absolutely determined to take on a raw, vegan diet come January (I have to wait until I get my refund from the university so I can afford actual vegetables).  I absolutely believe that I will be a famous author.  I'm not just tooting my own horn; I've seen what gets published and I know what's popular, so I have a good idea of what I need to do.  Not only that, but I'm in creative writing courses with graduate students and I am at least one of the top two writers in the course.  It's science to a point and I know that I'm pretty good.  So anyway, I want to present as an androgynous male.

So I guess what I want to know is, do you all think that a gay man would ever be satisfied with another gay, male identified person who happens to have a female body?  I believe that it is possible, but I also sometimes believe that it will never happen.  I don't know if that is because I have never known love or because it seems improbable.  I mean, a hole is a hole and a person is a person despite their sexual organs.  I didn't choose to be female bodied.  Thoughts?

For some background, I was never allowed to be a child.  Children should never be seen or heard, in my parents' case.  My parents, while they are not bad people, were not parents.  They were too young and I was often in the awkward position of being taken care of by my grandparents while a cousin of the exact same age was not because her parents were able to take care of her.  Either way, her mother interrogated me all the time about who bought me what.  I was also never grateful enough to my grandparents, which is hard enough on a child.  I didn't say "thank you" enough and I wasn't perfect enough (how much is enough, anyway?).  I made good grades, but I honestly thought a 95% was a bad grade because it was almost a B.  I was never quiet enough or still enough and at the same time, I was awkward because I was too quiet and still.  I didn't even realize that it was weird to ask for a drink every time I wanted one until I was 15 when one of my friends told me, "you don't have to ask, you can just get one if you want it."  I was called "lazy" more times than I can remember because I always asked and I guess people assumed that I wanted them to get it for me.  I was the saddest, loneliest child you could have ever met.  I was about seven the first time that I wished I hadn't been born.  I don't even remember why I was upset.  But the moment I had that thought, it felt as though something were ripped right from my body.  It physically hurt as much as it emotionally hurt.

As much as I love my parents, I hate them too.  That's not so much about gender, I suppose.  My father was WAY too hard on me and my mother is the most passive pushover you could ever meet.  My first memory of my father is when I was three.  I was standing in front of him in the trailer next door to my maternal grandparents' house; I licked my lips and he took off his belt and hit me a few times because he thought I stuck my tongue out at him.  I don't remember much other than my mother came into my bedroom after I ran in there and said, "you shouldn't have stuck your tongue out at him."  It was always like that.  No matter how in the wrong HE was, I shouldn't have done what I did, even if I didn't really do anything.

I suppose my biggest issue is that I don't know how much of all this is psychological and how much is biological.  The grandparents who raised me died within two years of each other and as much as I miss them and appreciate what they did for me, I'm angry with them for not taking a stand against my aunt and not for just taking care of me because I was a child, not because my father didn't love me.  My grandmother told me that the reason she and my grandfather loved me and my brother so much was because our father didn't.  That was another source of pain.  My little brother.  He's 12 years younger than me and honestly, either the kid is borderline or he's the most selfish person on the planet.  I also think that borderline personality disorder/depression run on my dad's side of the family.  I was a soulless bag of flesh by the time I was 14.  My brother loses his ->-bleeped-<- over the smallest things.  Is it psychological or biological?  Both, perhaps?  I'm really confused (and quite drunk, which makes this sort of confession much easier...I do get tired of carrying it all by myself).

I'd really like any input and advice.  I don't know how to trust another person.  I've never relied on another person in my entire life; not my mother, father, brother, grandparents, teachers, preachers, etc.  Always, always so alone.  I believe, at least to a certain extent, that I will never be worth the love of another person.  I'm cold.  Terribly cold and I've lost friends because of my coldness.  I expect other people to deal with their own situations because I have always taken care of my own.  I am accustomed to taking care of everything all by myself.  Am I crazy?  Is it so strange to want help for once, but to also distrust any help that is offered?  No one ever really means it when they offer help.  Everything I have I earned myself, but I'm terribly in debt thanks to school and the inability to find a job when I graduated the first time.  What do I do?  Do I risk everything that I have built by relying on another person?  Would I even know love if I tried to find it?  Would I be able to trust someone who said they loved me?  I don't know.  It's never happened before.

I have three friends, a straight couple, and a gay friend; I'd do anything for them.  Should I tell them?  To be honest, I probably won't.  But they are my favorite people and they already like me.  They like my pen name too.    That's my alter ego.  I can't tell you yet, just in case, you know?  Anyway, I don't know what exactly I'm getting at.  I know that I'd give anything to be loved, but also that I don't trust a soul in the world.  How do you learn to trust?  How do you learn to let go of that protective wall that has kept you safe for so long? 

I'll tell you a secret (well, I guess it's not a secret if I tell you, is it?).  Once, about 5 or 6 years ago...my grandmother was still alive, so I was...23?  I guess that's right, so the summer of 2005-ish.  I was driving to my friend's house and there was a semi coming down a straight stretch towards me.  I thought, "all I'd have to do is turn the wheel," and at that moment, I was so relieved.  Just completely washed over with relief at the thought that I wouldn't be hear to f@#$ up anymore.  For a single moment, I was at peace and then I realized that it would make my mother cry.  If I died, I would definitely be a source of sorrow for my mother, more so than I was already.

Anyway, I'm just glad to unload all that.  All the years of worthlessness, all the years of suicidal thoughts, of wanting to disappear, all the years of confusion and distrust that have followed.  I don't really know what to do with it all.  I am doing my best to use those feelings of the past in my writing; to teach those who come into contact with me how to do deal with us.  But how do I change myself?  I want so badly to love another person.  I just don't know that I can.  (FYI: when I was 25/26ish, I decided that I wouldn't be sad anymore...and for the most part, I'm not.  I won't ever kill myself.  I know that, but how do I let someone in?)

So, 1.) bow down at my ability to type drunk and 2.) feel free to offer up any advice than you can.  What can I expect?  Am I naive for thinking that any man would want a person like me?  (I suppose I should add that I hate women...it's a mom/anger thing, you know?  I've never had a good relationship with a woman, so it'll never happen.  Let's focus on the men.)

I feel better.  Every time my bank account gets low I get down in the dumps, but at the same time, I recognize who I really am.  I put on an act of femininity when I have money (at least enough to buy clothes, etc.).  I even bought a short subscription to eHarmony, but I was so disappointed and sad with the results. 

All right.  Really.  Drunk or not, I have to stop writing because I'm sure I'm being repetitive.  Thanks for listening. 

Hi hon, I don't know where to start but I think it's great you have ambitions to be a best-selling novelist and that you're going to start taking care of your needs.
Not being a gay man, I don't know how they feel about male identified, female bodied persons. My guess is some might be okay with it and some might not.
But don't let that stop you from presenting how you need to present.

It's alright to be upset and vent sometimes...

I am sure there is someone for you out there who will love and care for you like you deserve and from what I read you have gone through hell in life .. and from someone who has gone through hell herself I can safely say that it is very easy to be down on ourselves but we deserve better than that ...

It is important to remember that you are not a cold person ... and I truly believe that you are warm caring person deep beneath , from your post it is obvious that you did care about your grandparents and your friends ... so there is no way that you can be a cold person...

So don't be too harsh on yourself .. you deserve better...

Dont loose hope .. put that drink away and smile to yourself as I am sure thing will get better...

::hugs::

Quote from: Forum Admin on December 18, 2010, 12:53:26 AM
Hi hon, I don't know where to start but I think it's great you have ambitions to be a best-selling novelist and that you're going to start taking care of your needs.
Not being a gay man, I don't know how they feel about male identified, female bodied persons. My guess is some might be okay with it and some might not.
But don't let that stop you from presenting how you need to present.

Is that NERO?!  I missed you!!!!!!!  *kissies*

Okay, I'm for reals going to bed now.  I'll check in again tomorrow.  I love you all.

I still haven't met a gay guy who would enjoy playing with vaginas.
I have met a bunch of guys who claim to be gay in order to get to play with vaginas. Funny how that works.

My husband has said that he is not willing to accept me getting a surgery, he is a gay male whose husband is turning into a hot wife. And he seems to enjoy it.

I cannot trust anybody. The two most dangerous words I know are "trust me" from somebody else. Almost every time I hear these words, something really stupid is going to happen.
But by default I don't even trust my own shadow.

Allowing yourself to love is SO EFFIN HARD. You have no idea, really. Honestly, IF and only if the other person is willing to cut sieself in half for you, it's worth it.
Based in my observations, it's really hard to get it wrong and give love to people who are not willing to return it.
But if you find that person, it really is like escaping from madness. Into a more cheesy madness, generally.

After 1 year, I still don't know if I trust my husband. But what works for me is that I let him do what needs to be done, but I still have one or two backup plans :3
So whether I "trust" him or not, I let him do his best, or what I suspect is his best anyway, and if that's not enough I can just "go from where he left" or whatever.
It sounds really ->-bleeped-<-y now that I typed it out, but so far it's worked... Idunno.

I'm sure you will find a way that works for you.

Also, the more you "search" for love, the farther you get from real love.
The things which paint themselves as love in most cases are not love.
Love doesn't needs to be called. You just need to keep your eyes open.
Of course, the problem is being ready for recognizing that other.

re: parents
I don't know many people who are brave enough to actually say that they hate their parents, I mean, not in the 14yo "I HAAAAEEET YOU DAD" but in the actual "I know what hate means" kind of way.

I hate my parents too. They left me to fend for myself, and that's something I will try my best to not allow to happen to the people I care about.
I will always be lonely, but I will never let my loved ones be lonely.

Finally, pink monsters are flying outside the window while gazing to the star shaped bubblegum :0

Wow if you think that clear when drunk I'm guessing that you are just a little tipsy enough to say what you mean without being so drunk you can't clearly verbalise your thought:)

I don't know about typical gay guys because I'm not one but I believe that there is somebody out there  for everyone who desires to be in a relationship personally I find I'm attracted to people not their bits and would be willing to be in a relationship with anyone who wasn't cis male - there is something about most cis Males that frightens me if a cis Male didn't frighten me then I'd be willing to have a relationship with him.  I have found a few Transmen attractive but I've never felt any desire to have sex with anyone.
Good luck at finding the right man for you would you consider a male born Androgyne or a transman if yes on the androgyne then we should get together although we are probably on different continents

Is it just gay men you are interested in?  Because your gender is likely to be less of an issue with bisexual/pansexual guys than with gay men I would think.  Actually with pansexual guys your gender could be a positive rather than being an 'issue'.  Just some thoughts

Me and my wife met 10 years ago, well not so much met as i just got hooked up on some telephone dating site. We talked for a few weeks and despite being in another relationship at the time, i found myself sending a text to someone i have never seen that i loved them, to which she replied i love you too. To cut a very long story short, within 6 months we met, got a house together, got engaged and she got pregnant with our first child.

Like i said we now have been together 10 years and love each other just as much now as we ever had. Now the moral of this story is this, if she said she wanted to be a man, part man or spend the rest of her life as a dog i would still stay with her, probably due to the circumstances of how we met in the first place, i fell in love with the person on the inside, whats on the outside is just for decoration. Just dont give up hope of meeting your soul mate as you just never know!

Wow, Jaimey - thats a clear, well thought out post for someone that is "drunk". I find it's best for me to avoid posting stuff when i'm in that state 

But enough about that.

I totally understand about your trust issues. My mother is bi-polar and as a result of that i too have trust issues. I have them even with my wife of 24 years - i'm still guarded around her. It's a learned defense mechanism. I had to learn it to protect myself from my crazy mom.

And like you I have very, very few close friends. What i require out of a friend - most people cannot/will not do.

What i've seen from the things you've posted in the past - you're witty, funny, and intelligent. And from what you've written in this post, I believe deep inside is a warm, caring person. The cold person you describe is your defense mechanism at work.

Don't give up Jaimey - you have a lot to offer the world.

Quote from: ZaidaZadkiel on December 18, 2010, 02:28:19 AM
I still haven't met a gay guy who would enjoy playing with vaginas.
I have met a bunch of guys who claim to be gay in order to get to play with vaginas. Funny how that works.

I have an issue that is opposite to Jaimey's. I was born a male, and I'm quite happy about it except that I don't like my genitalia. I'm into men, but I won't use the word gay because it seems to imply masculinity, and I'm not.
I'm not effeminate. If you see me in real life, you won't think so either. However, I'm a bit more feminine than masculine, and feminine part drives me to the decision of wanting to have a vagina. But I don't want to be a female; I don't want to appear female. I only want my penis to change into a functional vagina. I don't want clitoris, and I don't want labia minora.

It seems like Jaimey has troubles because he can't help it, but I am looking for trouble myself.

personally, I would rather have nothing down there, but sex happens to be fun, and my husband likes playing with my funny bits. So I don't really care about having one or another. In that regard, I can't really know what it's like to "want to have" a vagina, because even though it'd be nice, the only reason I'd want one is so that my underwear fits better lol

Quote from: Jaimey on December 18, 2010, 12:15:28 AM
Am I naive for thinking that any man would want a person like me?

First, I should state I am not fond of most creatures that have more testosterone than estrogen flowing in their veins. When I bought a dairy farm, my first act was to sell the bull. Artificial insemination works well. Nevertheless, there is a lot of diversity even among humans who self-identify as male, both in sex and gender. There are gentle, intelligent, compassionate men. I walk 20 miles annually with one in Boston's Walk for Hunger.

As an aside, my brother-in-law is intelligent and athletic, but my wife tells me he was a male chauvinist in his high chair. He waited until he was forty to marry, because he could find no woman his equal. He seems happily married now to an ambitious high-powered corporate executive and fitness trainer, who can sometimes beat him at golf. Their daughter recently celebrated her first birthday at their summer home in the Connecticut Berkshires.

You, yourself, are intelligent and compassionate. To use offensively elitist terminology, grade-A people seek grade-A companions; grade B people seek grade C companions. You need someone confident enough in their own abilities that they are not afraid of you. You need someone confident enough in their own gender, that they do not need an ultra-feminine woman to show they are a man. Someone who will let you grow to be the person you are called to be, and cheer you on your way. Such men do exist.

To find one, pursue your interests (other than men). Talk with people you meet along the way (as you talk with us). If someone you respect attracts you, make the effort to get to know them better. Do things together you enjoy doing anyway. My future father in law would tell his daughter her biological clock was ticking, so she should be going to single bars Friday night, rather than to synagogue. We met at the synagogue, took long hikes together, visited museums, studied together, explored the coast of Maine, did things friends do together. We are similar people with enough differences in experience, capabilities, and interests that we compliment each other. The world is populous enough now that your one in a million numbers in the thousands.

Have a little patience. Learn to trust the universe. Be the writer you know you are. Be who you are. I love Camus' Myth of Sisyphus. Life is about getting up each morning, enthusiastically pushing a rock up a mountain as best we can, knowing it will likely roll down again while we sleep. In Jewish mystical terms, the primordial vessel containing the original light burst at creation, scattering sparks throughout creation. It is our duty, responsibility, mission, and joy to seek out each spark and gather them together so in the end we will have restored the light.

Now I really must be off to the grocery store. My daughter, home for school break (so far she's heard she earned As in the three classes thus far reporting: Singing, Forensics, and Italian), wants my Italian fried chicken--I make it only once a year--and it needs to marinate.

Be well
S

Well, I didn't check in yesterday, but I was fine (I did have a nasty hangover, but that's what you get).  I just had to cook for a Christmas party...sweet potatoes.  Yum. 

Anyway, I feel better.  Sometimes you just gotta unload.  I appreciate the responses.  I'm heart-warmed.

Quote from: riven1 on December 18, 2010, 10:54:48 AM
Wow, Jaimey - thats a clear, well thought out post for someone that is "drunk".

haha...the answer to my verbosity (oh, that is apparently a real word!  go me!) is sheer force of will.    Drunk or not, I'll use proper grammar and not slur a bit, even when typing!

On a slightly more serious note, that is a defense mechanism as well: the ability to maintain control and seeming calm in any and all situations.  I'm a pro! 

I think my defensive mechanisms (and lord knows, I have plenty of them) have become more of a burden than a benefit now that I'm grown, but they're so ingrained that it's really difficult to separate them out from me and try to let them go.  It's a tough road!  The biggest obstacle is taking risks and not settling for what is comfortable.  Hopefully, as I realize my goals and dreams, that will become easier.

As for the gay man thing, well, in the state I was in, there was "gay" and "straight."  Heh.  I suppose those things aren't so important.  Right now I present female and so of course, I'll be treated like a woman.  I know that, but I still get frustrated.  As I become more happy with my body, I think I'll be more confident in being myself.

Anyway, thanks for listening.  I have a feeling that I'm certainly not the only person with these same sort of frustrations and worries, particularly about the finding someone to love thing.  Who doesn't worry about that?    So I'm all right.  I was just frustrated and inebriated (more so than I had intended...who gets drunk on margaritas?!  ).  I"m really not depressed or into self harm or anything, just so no one worries.

Quote from: symempathy on December 18, 2010, 01:23:39 PM
It seems like Jaimey has troubles because he can't help it, but I am looking for trouble myself.

Hey, you can't help how you feel about your body, right?  It's not like you chose to feel that way, you just do.  ...and I'm sure there are many who would argue that I go out of my way to look for trouble. 

Quote from: Jaimey on December 19, 2010, 08:11:16 PM
Hey, you can't help how you feel about your body, right?  It's not like you chose to feel that way, you just do.  ...and I'm sure there are many who would argue that I go out of my way to look for trouble. 

Hello Jaimey
I don't care what other people think about you. I think that you are very brave because you dare to confront your own feelings.

I used to run away from what I feel and oversimplify that becoming a woman is perhaps a best solution for all inner conflicts that I have had. However, I come to realize that I need to accept my feelings first before I look for a solution.

Despite what you say, I still think I look for trouble myself no matter my feelings are genuine. I'm probably rejected in both gay and transsexual world because what I want is indeed unusual to them: I like men but I can't embrace my masculinity enough to be a man, and I want a simple vagina but I can't embrace my femininity enough to be a woman.

Now I can pick a side if I want, but I may not be completely happy either. I was desperate finding a guy that I used to think about becoming a full time woman, but then I realized I would refuse the existence of my masculine side. It's not a dominant side, but it's there. Being a man with a touch femininity both physically and emotionally is the only thing that makes me happy.

I guess your mind may be in a labyrinth with my explanation. Anyway, I wish you the best and finding a solution for your situation.

I still don't think you are looking for trouble, but it's because you are trying to confront your feelings and desires.  There's nothing wrong with that.  Your life and your body are yours and no one else's...besides, there are more than 6 billion people in the world.  There's at least one who is looking for you. 

I went through a lot of the same processes...I first thought I was trans and that transition was the answer, but the more I thought about it, the more I didn't like that either.  To be honest, I think we're aiming for the same body, except I have the lady bits and don't particularly like my chest (although I'm not really keen on surgery, so binding will have to do).  We even had a member who had their genitalia removed, but didn't have any construction (if you will); they wanted to be completely sexless and now they are.  I think we all have varying degrees of dysphoria and ideas about the body.  Don't be scared or ashamed of what it is you want! 

As far as rejection, there will be people who reject you and people who accept you in any group.  I think that as long as you are honest and sincere, no one can ask more of you than that.  If someone doesn't like you or your decisions, then it's their loss. 

We only get one life, so we might as well enjoy it to the best of our abilities, everyone else be damned, I say!

Quote from: Jaimey on December 20, 2010, 07:15:19 PM
I still don't think you are looking for trouble, but it's because you are trying to confront your feelings and desires.  There's nothing wrong with that.  Your life and your body are yours and no one else's...besides, there are more than 6 billion people in the world.  There's at least one who is looking for you. 

I went through a lot of the same processes...I first thought I was trans and that transition was the answer, but the more I thought about it, the more I didn't like that either.  To be honest, I think we're aiming for the same body, except I have the lady bits and don't particularly like my chest (although I'm not really keen on surgery, so binding will have to do).  We even had a member who had their genitalia removed, but didn't have any construction (if you will); they wanted to be completely sexless and now they are.  I think we all have varying degrees of dysphoria and ideas about the body.  Don't be scared or ashamed of what it is you want! 

As far as rejection, there will be people who reject you and people who accept you in any group.  I think that as long as you are honest and sincere, no one can ask more of you than that.  If someone doesn't like you or your decisions, then it's their loss. 

We only get one life, so we might as well enjoy it to the best of our abilities, everyone else be damned, I say!

Listen to hir symempathy. There's nothing wrong with your feelings. Hell, I've also got the body you're aiming for! 

I'd really like any input and advice.  I don't know how to trust another person.  I've never relied on another person in my entire life; not my mother, father, brother, grandparents, teachers, preachers, etc.  Always, always so alone.  I believe, at least to a certain extent, that I will never be worth the love of another person.

Whether you accept it or not, you are loved. Maybe not today, maybe not yesterday, maybe tomorrow. It'll happen, what you do with it is up to you, but it will happen.

Quote from: Jaimey on December 20, 2010, 07:15:19 PM
I still don't think you are looking for trouble, but it's because you are trying to confront your feelings and desires.  There's nothing wrong with that.  Your life and your body are yours and no one else's...besides, there are more than 6 billion people in the world.  There's at least one who is looking for you.

I hope so because I haven't had luck with men lately. What bothers me is not a guy's rejection. I'm totally cool if he's not into other men. What bothers me is that I don't have guts to say to a man how I feel about him. I have met a Mexican guy in my chemistry class. He's American born, but he has a soft personality. We get along well, and I help him with chemistry. I haven't been able to tell him that I like him. I don't know if I can have a second chance.

QuoteI went through a lot of the same processes...I first thought I was trans and that transition was the answer, but the more I thought about it, the more I didn't like that either.  To be honest, I think we're aiming for the same body, except I have the lady bits and don't particularly like my chest (although I'm not really keen on surgery, so binding will have to do).

You're a genetic female. Your breasts are a female secondary sex characteristic. If you don't have breast cancer, are surgeons allowed to do mastectomy even if at your will?
Well, I hope you will find a way to deal with your chest. From my perspective, binding seems uncomfortable for the body to move and breathe.

Quote
We only get one life, so we might as well enjoy it to the best of our abilities, everyone else be damned, I say!

I have been living in the US for 7 years, yet I am never able to swear. I feel weird doing so, but I will make an exception. You're right.  ;DScrew bigots . We should be able to follow American motto: to live and let live.

Quote from: symempathy on December 20, 2010, 11:05:08 PM
I hope so because I haven't had luck with men lately. What bothers me is not a guy's rejection. I'm totally cool if he's not into other men. What bothers me is that I don't have guts to say to a man how I feel about him. I have met a Mexican guy in my chemistry class. He's American born, but he has a soft personality. We get along well, and I help him with chemistry. I haven't been able to tell him that I like him. I don't know if I can have a second chance.

Hm.  With your friend in chemistry, that's hard.  I was given some good advice earlier in this very thread, I believe...look for a friend first.  Also, the harder you look for someone, the more frustrated and less successful you'll probably be.  Just go with the flow.  May I ask how old you are?

QuoteYou're a genetic female. Your breasts are a female secondary sex characteristic. If you don't have breast cancer, are surgeons allowed to do mastectomy even if at your will?
Well, I hope you will find a way to deal with your chest. From my perspective, binding seems uncomfortable for the body to move and breathe.

I would have to go through a gender therapist...the ftms, of course, have a lot more knowledge on this subject, but I believe on the recommendation of gender therapists, one can have their breasts removed...it's a form of SRS, in a way.

QuoteI have been living in the US for 7 years, yet I am never able to swear. I feel weird doing so, but I will make an exception. You're right.  ;DScrew bigots . We should be able to follow American motto: to live and let live.

Haha!  I have to tell you, swearing feels pretty good sometimes.  You should try it out.    Of course, time and place are everything.  Live and let live, indeed!