So, according to your (and it's not your's its classic, i.e. retro, feminist theory) Hillary Clinton has less social privilege than the black guy who's sweeping the floor in the terminal where she parks the luxury state-owned jet she gets to use to travel the world.  That's so cute.

I'm dying to hear you convince that guy of that.  Hell, I'd pay money to watch that.

But hey, I'll not only take race out of the equation, hell I'll reverse it, so that the white guy who is sweeping the terminal where Condi Rice walks out of her first-class cabin seat has a lot more social privilege than a Regent at Stanford University who once had an oil tanker named after her before she was Secretary of State?  Damn girl, they ain't even going to name the broom after him.

But wait, that's not even it.  Because even more than being the youngest Regent in the history of Stanford, besides being the highest ranking African-American (at that point in time) ever to hold office in the US (male or female), besides being Secretary of State for the US, what Condi really has always wanted (and like everything else she's ever wanted, I'm sure she'll get, and the sooner the better) is to be the Commissioner for the National Football League.  And, at the point where she is pretty much in charge of the NFL, I want to see you tell the guy with the broom, who can't even afford a ticket to a crappy NFL game, that he has some form of 'privilege.'

And, while I'm sure they ain't going to name the broom after him, I'm also pretty sure that you'll get to have it surgically removed after you try to make that argument to him.

Quote from: Alex201 on December 25, 2010, 09:43:53 PM
is my post offensive? I'm sorry if it is I do not know much about the subject itself I have just heard the term thrown around.

Hardly.  You just fail to appreciate just how insulting and ridiculous these other people are being that offer "penis envy" as some kind of legitimate alternative to FTM identification. 

We need a rope to pull, you and I, that dumps a ton of slimy poop on these people whenever they talk.

On the original point, penis envy as a theory is pretty much in the bull->-bleeped-<- bin at this stage, and never meant what you seem to think it means, Alex. If you actually want a penis then it never applied.

On to the subplot:
In reality, social priviliges exist and it's not just feminist theory. Of course there are exceptions, but thats the essential point of a generalised social theory - it applies explicitly to groups and not individuals or even large populations within said groups. Teklas' pedantic commentary notwithstanding.

Quote from: tekla on December 25, 2010, 11:35:46 PM
So, according to your (and it's not your's its classic, i.e. retro, feminist theory) Hillary Clinton has less social privilege than the black guy who's sweeping the floor in the terminal where she parks the luxury state-owned jet she gets to use to travel the world.  That's so cute.

I'm dying to hear you convince that guy of that.  Hell, I'd pay money to watch that.

I've heard this argument before, from a white, (self proclaimed) hillbilly, no less.
There is no such thing as 'social privilege'. There are various privileges which intersect. This is known as 'intersectionality'. Such privileges can be divided into groups, like race, class, gender, being able bodied, being cis, socioeconomic status and a host of other privileges.
So you example is flawed. We are only examining male vs female privilege here.
You're trying to inject race, class and socioeconomic status into the mix to make an illogical comparison. The logical comparison is comparing (for example purposes only) a white middle-class cis male who works in management and a white middle-class cis female who works in management. We then draw comparisons of the differences in status and privilege based on gender.
Male privilege still exists, no matter what other privileges you are lacking, if you are male and presenting as male, you have male privilege.

Reality check.

When I revived my PhD more than half of the Doctoral Degrees handed out that year were given to women.  In my department there were 4 of us, I was the only male.  My two US Senators are both women.  Was was up for re-election and had she lost she would have been replaced by a Republican woman, a multi-millionaire ex-Fortune 500 CEO.  No matter which place I'm in, SR or SF, my congresscritter is a woman, one of whom is Speaker of the House at least for a few more days.  Of the two nightclubs/theaters I work at one is run by a woman the other by a gay male.  The president of my union is black, as is the president of the country.  See, that's the problem with theory, it rarely works in practice, which is why people would rather hire people with practice as opposed to theory.

What matter much, much, much more than gender is social class, but no-one in America will talk about that.  Least of all Feminist Theorists, who mostly are middle and upper middle class, and hence, the oppressors, not the oppressed.

Have a read through again:
http://www.amptoons.com/blog/the-male-privilege-checklist/

You'll note that only a handful of the points relate directly to employment.
3rd wave feminist theory is VERY involved with talking about class and socioeconomic status.

Also of interest:
http://www.ipu.org/wmn-e/classif.htm
...wow, 16.9%. The USA is worse that Kazakhstan.

Quote from: glendagladwitch on December 26, 2010, 12:18:43 AM
Hardly.  You just fail to appreciate just how insulting and ridiculous these other people are being that offer "penis envy" as some kind of legitimate alternative to FTM identification. 

I don't think anyone here is suggesting that. The question seemed to be whether expressing a desire for a penis at one point was ->-bleeped-<- or something else. The speculation was to how common it may or may not be for a girl to express the desire for a certain body part at a young age.

Quote from: Vexing on December 25, 2010, 08:24:58 PM
It sounds to me more like a privilege envy situation; she likes all the male privileges that comes with being male, but is female (brained).

You are correct.

Quote from: Alex201 on December 25, 2010, 08:37:17 PM
It has nothing to do with male privledge. I could care less about that. I just want a male body.

Dear Alex.

You're annalysing things. It's good that we think, rethink and rethink, about all aspects of our lives. We have brains. It's about all we do have. We should use them.

But sometimes, we need to direct our thoughts to make them productive.

I suggest, your thoughts should be directed toward how you will deal with life in transision and as a man. You do have some problems. In anothr thread, you talk about your parents, blocking your net access. You are going to have problems with society, with jobs. Many others.

These are problems concerned with transision, not the gender you seek or that sex society precieves.

Everyone has problems in society, because society likes to put everyone into little boxes. That person is negro, so that means...., that person is Muslims so that means....., that person likes sport, that person looks like..... and so on.

Now, you can spend your life moaning about how hard done to you are, or you can just get on with things. Trying to find solutions to your problems rather than trying to find others to blame.

Please don't misunderstand me. I'm not trying to be unsympathetic, getting to know you here, you are clearly a really nice and interesting young man. But one of the lessons I've learnt in this life is, we create our own realities.

Take care lovely Alex.

Quote from: Forum Admin on December 26, 2010, 01:35:49 AM
I don't think anyone here is suggesting that. The question seemed to be whether expressing a desire for a penis at one point was ->-bleeped-<- or something else. The speculation was to how common it may or may not be for a girl to express the desire for a certain body part at a young age.

Certainly no one HERE is suggesting that.  But the original post conjured up images of others telling him that he or other FTM transitioners just have "penis envy."

I apologize for coming off as antogonistic towards anyone here.  I was commenting on how I would respond to such people.

Regarding the privilege debate, I found this Time Magazine article to be fairly informative.  The raw data on the wage gap always shows a big discrepancy between men's and women's salaries.  But the article says that if you control for education, experience, occupation, industry, and union membership, the discrepancy shrinks to 91%.

And here's my favorite part.

Quote
Perhaps the most compelling — and potentially damning — data of all to suggest that gender has an influence comes from a 2008 study in which University of Chicago sociologist Kristen Schilt and NYU economist Matthew Wiswall examined the wage trajectories of people who underwent a sex change. Their results: even when controlling for factors like education, men who transitioned to women earned, on average, 32% less after the surgery. Women who became men, on the other hand, earned 1.5% more.

I wonder if there is any way to control for how much better FTMs tend to pass than MTFs after transition, especially due to the voice issue.

http://www.time.com/time/nation/article/0,8599,1983185,00.html

To jump in on the privilege discussion (which is a tangent/off-shoot of the original question):

The problem with this debate is that there is no such thing as a "male identity" that is independent of other identity aspects.

I was discussing this with a friend of mine who is also FTM when he was thinking about how he is not a man the same way someone who is cis-male is a man. I pointed out that he is comparing himself to a white, upper-middle class, educated version of what it is to be a man. Except someone who is not white or not educated or poor will experience what it means to be a man *differently* than what his idea of what it means to be a man is, and that in many ways, an FTM with the same privileged background will experience manhood in a far more similar way to a cis-male guy than EITHER of them would experience the same idea of what it means to be a man without certain kinds of privilege.

In other words, your gendered identity is not independent of every other identity aspect of you. So when people speak about gender as a form of privilege, they are exploring how things differ based on gender - if you hold all other variables constant! We are not comparing Hillary Clinton to a janitor. We are comparing Hillary Clinton to her brothers and other men who attended Yale law school when she did.

There is such a thing as male privilege. However, it's pretty clear that in the year 2010, gender is far from the most limiting identity aspect. It also seems to be the case that gender combines with other socio-economic,  cultural, racial, age-related or ethnic identities in ways that can amplify or diminish the effects of male privilege.

Alex:

As Spacial mentioned, the term "Penis Envy" is an outdated term used to describe conditions that 19th century females often found themselves in.  There was much societal repression regarding women and women themselves often contributed to their own repression, while males had all the power.  It described a sociological condition, not a physical need.

Your wish to have a penis is not penis envy in that classic respect.  You think of yourself as a male, you are male where it counts (between your ears, not your legs) and having a penis is appropriate for males.  I think you are responding to the birth defect many of us are born with.  We have the wrong body for the brain we have.

And no, your post and your question was not offensive in the least.  That is a completely appropriate question.  Do not ever worry about asking any question here.  As you have seen, there is always plenty of discussion to be had.  Though we are such an introspective lot! 

Everyone else:
I think we are drifting off topic here.  Alex has asked a question regarding his feelings and we are drifting into a discussion about society.  I'm sure we can start a thread regarding feminism in the modern world.  But I think that he would appreciate topical responses.

Thanks!

-Sandy