....their version of matriarchy with the eliete amongst them at the helm of course

Quote from: tekla on December 29, 2010, 04:41:44 PM
Serious arguments against this kind of stuff tends to legitimize it, as opposed to defeating it.

I suppose that's a fair point, but don't forget that in the minds of the rad fems any counter argument espoused by a TS individual is ultimately null and void due to them being TS, their beliefs are 100% legitimate in their own eyes, anything that I potentially write would be aimed at inquisitive people who don't really have an opinion either way but are just interested. Basically the more balanced and properly researched i make things, while potentially legitimising those views by treating them as serious, the more that people sitting on the intellectual fence will be swayed towards my arguments (which is good)...I mean you have to admit the average rad fem hate blogger does not a coherent writer make.

Plus it'll keep my mind in shape for when I go back to uni to get my teaching degree.

Quote from: Vexing on December 29, 2010, 04:46:51 PM
I've done it several times; there are a large number of logical inconsistencies in their writings; the privilege argument being one, the denial of the existence of passable trans woman being another. The problem is that they don't care that they are wrong. They want to hate and we are vulnerable, easy targets.
The biggest problem with their ideals is that they don't represent liberation for women, instead they represent a new set of rules and gendered behaviours - the replacement of Patriarchy with Matriarchy (i.e. "If you shave your legs you're a traitor" "If you stay at home to raise your kids you're a traitor" "If you wear makeup you're a traitor" etc).

Yep, noticed that...it always amuses me that they've effectively become the very thing they profess to hate. Anyway, if i do write something (i'm a lazy cow) it'll be as much about the intellectual exercise of presenting an argument in an academic manner as anything. I've been seriously considering doing a masters/teaching degree recently and it's always good to keep in practice.

Heh.. more biggotry...why wont it just die

Because people keep on posting it, linking to it, and others keep on clicking on it.

But its been around before the internet. Sadly I think its a permanent resadance in the world

Quote from: Helena on December 29, 2010, 04:34:48 PM
well, after repeatedly being seriously annoyed by the rad fems seemingly incoherent hatred towards TS individuals I'm going to fight back...they want to deconstruct the trans narrative, well I'll return the favour and deconstruct theirs. And I'll do it properly...time to visit the library and brush up on my media theories i think.

Well it'd be good writing exercise, but shredding radfem theories is a piece of piss, it's just anyone who subscribes to them won't be listening when you do it.

Quote from: Helena on December 29, 2010, 04:55:14 PM
I suppose that's a fair point, but don't forget that in the minds of the rad fems any counter argument espoused by a TS individual is ultimately null and void due to them being TS, their beliefs are 100% legitimate in their own eyes, anything that I potentially write would be aimed at inquisitive people who don't really have an opinion either way but are just interested. Basically the more balanced and properly researched i make things, while potentially legitimising those views by treating them as serious, the more that people sitting on the intellectual fence will be swayed towards my arguments (which is good)...I mean you have to admit the average rad fem hate blogger does not a coherent writer make.

I think it isn't really a fair point, but what do I know? I love tilting at windmills! Seriously though, I don't think offering pointed counterargument necessarily lends credence to the nutjobs, as much as it exposes them for the fallacious hypocrites they really are.

I agree with the rest of what you said, though. We're not going to change the minds of the insane radfems, but we can't let this stuff stand out there unopposed. Reasonable people can and will see the difference. As I've said before, though, never engage them on territory they control. Their most common tactic is to delete anything with which they disagree. See The Magazine Project (which curiously allowed my posts to stand, so far) for a great recent example.

No amount of intellectual arguments, facts, realities or proofs can ever sway a true believer.  Radical feminists are no different than the Sara Palin fan club over at FreeRepublic. 

Quote from: tekla on December 29, 2010, 11:33:19 PM
No amount of intellectual arguments, facts, realities or proofs can ever sway a true believer.  Radical feminists are no different than the Sara Palin fan club over at FreeRepublic.

In actual fact, providing them with facts contrary to their beliefs actually makes their beliefs stronger.
Read more here: http://www.boston.com/bostonglobe/ideas/articles/2010/07/11/how_facts_backfire/?page=full

Seriously, where does this hate even come from? 

Quote from: Lee on December 30, 2010, 02:20:08 AM
Seriously, where does this hate even come from?

In this instance, I suspect it's externalised self-hatred.

Quote from: tekla on December 29, 2010, 11:33:19 PM
No amount of intellectual arguments, facts, realities or proofs can ever sway a true believer.  Radical feminists are no different than the Sara Palin fan club over at FreeRepublic.

Myers' Axiom: You can't use reason to talk someone out of a position they didn't use reason to arrive at.

Quote from: tekla on December 29, 2010, 08:29:46 AM
A little knowledge can be a dangerous thing.

But no knowledge is even more dangerous.

Not necessarily.

Quote from: Miniar on December 30, 2010, 09:53:57 AM
Myers' Axiom: You can't use reason to talk someone out of a position they didn't use reason to arrive at.

Agreed. I've tried several times to have level headed intellectual debates with those kinds of people. They just dig their heels in get ready to fight and insist on whatever nonsense they have come to a conclusion on.
It's a pain, especially because they have to be right. I think it becomes less of what the actual facts are and more about being right from the get go. Because they could never be wrong.
And thats just people in general with this kind of stubborn and ignorant trait. Very bad combination.

Quote from: tekla on December 29, 2010, 11:33:19 PM
No amount of intellectual arguments, facts, realities or proofs can ever sway a true believer.  Radical feminists are no different than the Sara Palin fan club over at FreeRepublic.

I absolutely agree. However, it doesn't necessarily follow that counter-arguments are not worth presenting.

I sometimes comment on Dirt's blog (mostly to say "hey, I'm trans, I don't hate women, I'm not a monster, also, TAKE DOWN THE PICS OF MY FRIENDS"). I recieve replies such as "Wow, it's cool to hear the inside perspective of a post-lobotomy woman, a victim of the Male Medical Machine."

What is this I don't even (my reaction to everything she says ever)

Yeah... She regularly searches for ftm on youtube and then take screenshots of their faces and then writes something like "Look at these poor delusional women" as a caption. Seriously. What is the problem with all the haters? Why so angry?

Quote from: PixieBoy on January 01, 2011, 11:04:20 AM
I sometimes comment on Dirt's blog (mostly to say "hey, I'm trans, I don't hate women, I'm not a monster, also, TAKE DOWN THE PICS OF MY FRIENDS"). I recieve replies such as "Wow, it's cool to hear the inside perspective of a post-lobotomy woman, a victim of the Male Medical Machine."

What is this I don't even (my reaction to everything she says ever)

Yeah... She regularly searches for ftm on youtube and then take screenshots of their faces and then writes something like "Look at these poor delusional women" as a caption. Seriously. What is the problem with all the haters? Why so angry?

All signs point strongly to someone who is FTM themselves, but cannot reconcile it with their fundamentalist rad feminist beliefs and if forever trapped in the 'evangelist' role where they preach against it fervently even though they dress up as a guy in private and wear packers.

It is one thing to have a debate with someone who holds an opinion but is open to listening to logical arguments that can be backed up with good evidence.

It is another thing to have a debate with someone who is dogmatic*.

You are never going to sway someone with a dogmatic position, they believe what they believe and will use every counter-argument as proof that they are correct.


*used here in the secular sense

Quote from: Vexing on December 28, 2010, 09:56:02 PM
Anyway, in my experience these hate blogs are run by cis, middle-to-upper class, 19-23 year old, able-boddied white women who have done a semester of women's studies, read Germaine Greer, 'chosen' to be lesbians for the cause (even though they love penis) and then decide that they will be the FIRST to do something EDGY and HARD HITTING like deconstructing ->-bleeped-<- to EMPOWER WOMYNZ!
Just like several hundred other first year lame ass women's studies snotbags who are too lazy to find something new to do.
Just let them think they're cool. They'll need the self-esteem boost when they start getting Fs in class.

Vexing, I'm really getting to respect you. I love your comments, seriously.

This woman sounds like a complete psychopath. I give you a lot of credit for being able to keep it civil, but I don't even see the point in arguing with this kind of person. They're so indoctrinated in their own BS that anything ANYONE else says is going to be either considered denial or somesuchbull->-bleeped-<-.

Quote from: N.Chaos on January 07, 2011, 03:11:01 PM
Vexing, I'm really getting to respect you. I love your comments, seriously.

Aww shucks, thank you! 

QuoteThis woman sounds like a complete psychopath. I give you a lot of credit for being able to keep it civil, but I don't even see the point in arguing with this kind of person. They're so indoctrinated in their own BS that anything ANYONE else says is going to be either considered denial or somesuchbull->-bleeped-<-.

The best one can ever hope for in a discussion with these people is to have some fun at their expense. If you engage them seriously, you've kinda already lost.