Quote from: Arch on January 01, 2011, 06:14:46 PM
Absolutely. We encounter people like this everywhere, not just on a trans support site.

But there's a big difference between telling such a person, "Yeah, right. Face reality. You're not gonna be able to get a job as a third-grade teacher, so suck it up" and "I hate to say this, but I don't think you're being realistic about your career prospects. If you read recent news articles, you'll find that parents and administrators do not tend to deal gracefully or fairly with trans teachers."

Or whatever.

I've seen what happens when my colleagues are too frank with college students. The students shut down and never come back for help again. I tell my students the truth about their abilities and prospects, but I neither sugar-coat it nor state it so baldly that I hurt their feelings. They tell me that they appreciate my honesty AND my support, and they keep coming back for help.

Crafting a thoughtful post that is polite AND honest doesn't take all that much more effort, and there's a much lower risk that you'll alienate people so much that they fixate only on how you said something and pay no attention to what you actually said.

I never said we should be rude to them. But we should let them know the truth about life.

how ever some of the people who come here don't want to know the truth are are just expecting affirmation of what they believe.. It doesnt matter how you sugar coat it with them what ever you tell them isn't going to get through...

Most people's Ship of Dreams runs aground on the shoals of unrealistic expectations.

Quote from: Catherine on January 01, 2011, 06:37:03 PM
I never said we should be rude to them. But we should let them know the truth about life.

how ever some of the people who come here don't want to know the truth are are just expecting affirmation of what they believe.. It doesnt matter how you sugar coat it with them what ever you tell them isn't going to get through...

I didn't mean to imply that you said we should be mean to people; I was just pointing out (mainly in response to the whole thread) that some people can't seem to separate medium from message, and I think that can be problematic.

Oooh!
Another thought, almost forgot completely...

There's people from all over the world 'round here. Not everyone's a native English speaker.
Not everyone words things the same way. If someone replies with "fine" they may mean it in an up-beat "yeah okay, no problem" manner, where another person replying may mean it in a passive-aggressive "whatever you say mr/miss bossy boss".
This can be even more different because certain people may be almost dictionary-like in their word usage while others might be using heavy colloquialisms. If you want to be certain you're reading everyone's posts right you can either read 'em mostly literally, or you can get to know every single poster intimately enough to know exactly when they're literal or not... and even then you might get it wrong on occasion.

I really dont think this is a place where we should try to second guess people who are reaching out for help. So what if someone is crying wolf and you arw rightwhen you call them out on it? Well, score one for you for being right!

But what if you are wrong? What is the downside and cost to shooting down someone reaching out for help and you shoot them down when they are most vulnerable? We cant expect everyone who visits this site to always have our level of maturity, writting ability or level of reasoning.

Quote from: StacyBeaumont on January 02, 2011, 12:24:55 PM
I really dont think this is a place where we should try to second guess people who are reaching out for help. So what if someone is crying wolf and you arw rightwhen you call them out on it? Well, score one for you for being right!

Well, that's a really thoughtless attitude.
Let's say for example that my fiancé has a history of suicide attempts and depression. Let's say that someone's little passive aggressive attention seeking spree on the internet is taken to heart by me and I invest my time and emotions into helping them. Let's also say that I've been traumatised by my fiancé's suicide attempts and that this person's 'wolf' crying is very Triggering to me and brings up all that emotional pain. Or that someone has cried 'wolf' to me before and I spent an emotionally wrecked half a day trying to track down their phone number and address in a different damn country to mine because I thought they had overdosed on a bottle of pills and were dying on the floor of their bathroom.
There is a cost to the helper when someone cries 'wolf'. Sometimes too big a cost to ever do it again - and these people, quite frankly, ruin it for the people who DO have a wolf eating their sheep.
There's more to this than 'Yay, you were right, move on."
A lot more.

Yeah, support site and cry wolf don't really exist in the same sentence. Support. It's the foundation upon which we're built. People who are hesitant to help others that they think are crying wolf should consider spending their time 1) remaining silent about the matter and peruse other messages to comment on 2) consider not spending time on a support site.

Are there times we each feel like someone may be acting passive/aggressive in an attempt to get sympathy, sure, definitely. But we owe it to people as members of a support site to help each other in our moments of need. Everyone has their ups and downs, their individual triggers, their little idiosyncrasies. It's part of the reason why most of us have probably pulled back more replies than we've sent around here.

Quite a few people come to this site and other sites because they feel like they might find a compassionate place that's different than the rest of the world. If they come here because they expect the same harsh, cold, "realistic" response they are going to get in the "real world" than we'd be a social networking site, not a support site. I'd like to think that most of us around here care about people and are able to articulate that and be supportive.

It's like being at a party and you have someone over in the corner crying and threatening to hurt themselves out of despair, the same person who at the last two parties did the same thing. Do you go over and help comfort the person? Do you leave the room? Do you just not go to parties anymore where they are? Do you walk over to them, point at them and say "lol, yo, seriously, you need to get a grip. Are you going to do it or not? We're pretty sick and tired of all those hollow threats and excuses. Either do it or don't, but shut up either way!" I hope the kind of place we have here at Susan's would put most people in any group except the last one. People act out around here in so many different ways; they all need care and compassion to make it through the rough spots, even the people we "get tired of" or the people that "pull the same stunts over and over again."

Awesome post Meghan... Got my vote 

I think you missed the entire point in the continued quest to be "right".  If we knew for certain if someone were crying wolf it wouldnt bean issue.  There is a big difference in SUSPECT and KNOW.  I for one am not goung to thrash someone I dont know here because of a gut feeling. I'm done with this thread now. It's just going to cause bad feelings to continue.

BTW Vexing, your before and after pics are incredible! You have really blossomed into a beautiful woman.

Quote from: Vexing on January 02, 2011, 02:15:17 PM
Well, that's a really thoughtless attitude.
Let's say for example that my fiancé has a history of suicide attempts and depression. Let's say that someone's little passive aggressive attention seeking spree on the internet is taken to heart by me and I invest my time and emotions into helping them. Let's also say that I've been traumatised by my fiancé's suicide attempts and that this person's 'wolf' crying is very Triggering to me and brings up all that emotional pain. Or that someone has cried 'wolf' to me before and I spent an emotionally wrecked half a day trying to track down their phone number and address in a different damn country to mine because I thought they had overdosed on a bottle of pills and were dying on the floor of their bathroom.
There is a cost to the helper when someone cries 'wolf'. Sometimes too big a cost to ever do it again - and these people, quite frankly, ruin it for the people who DO have a wolf eating their sheep.
There's more to this than 'Yay, you were right, move on."
A lot more.

Quote from: MeghanAndrews on January 02, 2011, 02:59:17 PM
Yeah, support site and cry wolf don't really exist in the same sentence. Support. It's the foundation upon which we're built. People who are hesitant to help others that they think are crying wolf should consider spending their time 1) remaining silent about the matter and peruse other messages to comment on 2) consider not spending time on a support site.

Are there times we each feel like someone may be acting passive/aggressive in an attempt to get sympathy, sure, definitely. But we owe it to people as members of a support site to help each other in our moments of need. Everyone has their ups and downs, their individual triggers, their little idiosyncrasies. It's part of the reason why most of us have probably pulled back more replies than we've sent around here.

Quite a few people come to this site and other sites because they feel like they might find a compassionate place that's different than the rest of the world. If they come here because they expect the same harsh, cold, "realistic" response they are going to get in the "real world" than we'd be a social networking site, not a support site. I'd like to think that most of us around here care about people and are able to articulate that and be supportive.

It's like being at a party and you have someone over in the corner crying and threatening to hurt themselves out of despair, the same person who at the last two parties did the same thing. Do you go over and help comfort the person? Do you leave the room? Do you just not go to parties anymore where they are? Do you walk over to them, point at them and say "lol, yo, seriously, you need to get a grip. Are you going to do it or not? We're pretty sick and tired of all those hollow threats and excuses. Either do it or don't, but shut up either way!" I hope the kind of place we have here at Susan's would put most people in any group except the last one. People act out around here in so many different ways; they all need care and compassion to make it through the rough spots, even the people we "get tired of" or the people that "pull the same stunts over and over again."

The mistake you're making here is in thinking that 'support' only comes in 'warm fuzzy and cuddly'.
It doesn't.
There are many different kinds of support and I'm glad that the community here is diverse enough to offer various different kinds of support - from Fluffy-fuzzy-lovey support to Kick-in-the-pants support (both of which are equally compassionate).

Quote from: Vexing on January 02, 2011, 03:53:33 PM
There are many different kinds of support and I'm glad that the community here is diverse enough to offer various different kinds of support - from Fluffy-fuzzy-lovey support to Kick-in-the-pants support (both of which are equally compassionate).

I don't much find kick-in-the-pants support to be compassionate because not everyone will take it that way. Example: Someone comes here threatening to end there life. While yes fuzzy lovey support doesn't fit in that scenario neither does kick in the pants. In that situtation its better for a bit of both more of a "we care about you but we don't support that action" Well, I mean don't take that too literally because that's not exactly what I would say but more of the way I would say it.   

I think Meghan's post had it exactly right.

Quote from: Andrew Scott on January 02, 2011, 04:00:32 PM
I don't much find kick-in-the-pants support to be compassionate because not everyone will take it that way.

Compassion is about the intent of the giver, not how the receiver interprets that which is given.

In my opinion, that "kick in the pants" support is only effective when you know the person you are administering it to very well.  It also needs to be applied in private to be effective.  For an online resource where relative strangers are interacting by text only it is very difficult to achieve the kind of intimacy that approach requires and when it's used in a forum such as this, more often than not it's viewed as an attack.

Tact is the skill that allows a person to make their point, even potentially painful ones, without it feeling as if they are attacking people.  That kind of tact is not always in evidence at Susan's, or the rest of the world for that matter, and we would all become better people if we were to dedicate ourselves to developing that skill.

hugs & smiles
Emelye

Excellent and intelligent explanation Emelye 

Quote from: Vexing on January 02, 2011, 04:09:20 PM
Compassion is about the intent of the giver, not how the receiver interprets that which is given.

And if the giver reasonably expects the recipient to recognize that compassion, then the giver needs to communicate it effectively. Or at least try to.

Case in point: a kid comes home after curfew, and his father gets angry and says some harsh things. The kid sees anger (not caring). He feels hurt, and he lashes out at his father. I would say that the father was worried and concerned, but he didn't convey his compassion very effectively.

Quote from: Arch on January 02, 2011, 05:33:37 PM
And if the giver reasonably expects the recipient to recognize that compassion, then the giver needs to communicate it effectively. Or at least try to.

Case in point: a kid comes home after curfew, and his father gets angry and says some harsh things. The kid sees anger (not caring). He feels hurt, and he lashes out at his father. I would say that the father was worried and concerned, but he didn't convey his compassion very effectively.

It isn't a requirement that the recipient recognises it as compassion for it to be compassionate.
Sometimes I vastly prefer that they don't.

It's alright sweetie, you're going to be absolutely fine! People just are meanies sometimes, awww,  don't listen to them no more, no more! It's going to be alright, okay? Alright. I really care about you, and we rainbow people stick together! Lalalla, life is beautiful, repeat, lalala, life is beautiful! Now, no more tears! 

Think happy thoughts 

Alright I don't know about the sugar or the life is beautiful but seriously I'm liking the cute little kittens

As for compassionate what's the point of being compassionate but not letting the person know it? I mean going by Arch's example and the response Vexing posted let's say the dad has compassion but doesn't let the kid see it. Then the kid will be anger and feel like no one cares even though the dad does and he will act out worse. It'll just end in fighting usually even though the dad really cares. It goes back to delivery. I always respected my mom for the way she handled things. She was compassionate but not sugarcoating when I got into trouble. That's kinda how I try to be on here. Everyone is entitled to their own opinion and to deliver it how they want but personally I try to... to figure out how to best express it to the reader. Like Miniar said you can't get to know everyone so when it comes to handling responses for new people I try to balance compassion without sugarcoating it all.

Quote from: Andrew Scott on January 03, 2011, 02:32:06 AM
Alright I don't know about the sugar or the life is beautiful but seriously I'm liking the cute little kittens

As for compassionate what's the point of being compassionate but not letting the person know it? I mean going by Arch's example and the response Vexing posted let's say the dad has compassion but doesn't let the kid see it. Then the kid will be anger and feel like no one cares even though the dad does and he will act out worse. It'll just end in fighting usually even though the dad really cares.

Life is complicated. The dad may not want the son to know that he loves him in that way, since it's a generational pride issue. He would rather cause more friction with his son than allow a perceived loss of mana by explaining his true intentions to his son.

Quote from: Vexing on January 03, 2011, 03:59:31 AM
Life is complicated. The dad may not want the son to know that he loves him in that way, since it's a generational pride issue. He would rather cause more friction with his son than allow a perceived loss of mana by explaining his true intentions to his son.

True, which I find sad that even a dad has to not show emotion so that he can be "manly". At the risk of debate while I agree with what you said in that example when you place that example in relation to the board why would any of us who have fought gender stereotypes and such want to hide our compassion? Sorry I'm not questioning you, just asking any general. I'll be honest, I wear my heart on my sleeve (which seriously isn't always smart) but I really do care about the people here and want to show them the compassion I feel so I don't understand why someone would want to hide that