Quote from: VeryGnawty on January 03, 2011, 07:38:15 AM
Ugh.  This is why I'm getting tired of these either/or questions.  They just are not realistic.

I mean, seriously.  Is there a beautiful woman who does NOT pass?  I've never heard any of my guy friend say something like "Dang that chick is hot even though you can tell she used to be a guy"

It seems like if you are beautiful, then you are probably going to pass 99% of the time regardless.  Unless you just have really masculine mannerisms.

lol that made me laugh

Quote from: VeronikaFTH on January 03, 2011, 09:12:28 AM
Simple: It's that male masculinity thing. Anything a guy thinks makes them less "manly", or "gay", they don't want to have anything to do with. They can't deal with the fact that they are with a person who was born male. Guys get confused, because they are attracted to a transwoman, but they know that we were once male physically, and still are genetically, and that trips their gay alarm. Then they start worrying that they might be GAY! And of course, we all know that the WORST thing that could POSSIBLY happen to any guy is to be GAY, right?!? Sheesh...  Like there aren't more important things to worry about... 

In some people's minds (men AND women), we will never be considered women, and will be considered male no matter what we do. Unfortunately some people are just simple or closed-minded and will never be able to see past our birth genders.

EXACTLY what I thought!!! 

Quote from: VeryGnawty on January 03, 2011, 07:38:15 AM
Ugh.  This is why I'm getting tired of these either/or questions.  They just are not realistic.

I mean, seriously.  Is there a beautiful woman who does NOT pass?  I've never heard any of my guy friend say something like "Dang that chick is hot even though you can tell she used to be a guy"

It seems like if you are beautiful, then you are probably going to pass 99% of the time regardless.  Unless you just have really masculine mannerisms.

I know many who look like GODDESS at a glance but as soon as they open their mouth to speak, all men would flee. You can be VERY BEAUTIFUL but there are many ways to detect that you're not a bio girl. And NO MATTER HOW BEAUTIFUL YOU MAYBE, the average straight men would dump you.

Quote from: Sad Girl on January 03, 2011, 12:43:44 PM
I know many who look like GODDESS at a glance but as soon as they open their mouth to speak, all men would flee. You can be VERY BEAUTIFUL but there are many ways to detect that you're not a bio girl. And NO MATTER HOW BEAUTIFUL YOU MAYBE, the average straight men would dump you.

Pfft. Who aims for average? Raise your standards, sweetie 

I think she looks a  lot better in the second video, she's not as attractive as the first one but she definitely looks a lot more natural and feminine.

The beauty vs ordinary thing...eh. Being beautiful has many many advantages and in a lot of ways gains you access to "special treatment" definitely, but guys will always see you as a sex object and it will be difficult trying to maintain a relationship with anyone. Not to mention, you have to deal with a ton of cattiness and jealousy from other women, but that's a given.
Being ordinary will probably get you engaged and married and the guy would probably never know, but you will always yearn to be beautiful. Either way for a ts female it is not easy.

Well i know a few TS girls who are dancers and they TOTALLY pass...until they open their mouth and their voice is obviously male. So yes you can be beautiful and not pass.

Quote from: Vexing on January 03, 2011, 01:39:38 PM
Pfft. Who aims for average? Raise your standards, sweetie 

Dear, by average I didn't mean the look or handsomeness of straight men but I meant all straight men themselves in average.

For ex: There are 10 straight men super duper handsome but among those 10, only 2 might want to date with a transsexual. Do you get what I mean? So majority or the average straight man dump transsexuals as soon as they know they are trans no matter how beautiful or passable the transsexual maybe. For them they have the idea that we were born a man and that we a man even we have a vagina. Some of course will accept and think otherwise but they are the minority unfortunately.

Quote from: Sad Girl on January 03, 2011, 02:08:41 PM
Dear, by average I didn't mean the look or handsomeness of straight men but I meant all straight men themselves in average.

For ex: There are 10 straight men super duper handsome but among those 10, only 2 might want to date with a transsexual. Do you get what I mean? So majority or the average straight man dump transsexuals as soon as they know they are trans no matter how beautiful or passable the transsexual maybe. For them they have the idea that we were born a man and that we a man even we have a vagina. Some of course will accept and think otherwise but they are the minority unfortunately.

It's interesting; you put the onus on what the cis man wants, not what the trans woman wants.
I wouldn't want to date a guy who wouldn't date a trans woman. The idea of a transphobe touching my body makes my skin crawl. Contrary to what you would have us believe, I'm not losing out by not dating transphobes.

Quote from: KillBelle on January 03, 2011, 01:51:34 PM
The beauty vs ordinary thing...eh. Being beautiful has many many advantages and in a lot of ways gains you access to "special treatment" definitely, but guys will always see you as a sex object and it will be difficult trying to maintain a relationship with anyone.

Patently untrue. All one needs to do is maintain an attitude of strength and independence.
Taking advantage of the 'special treatment' you describe is reinforcing the idea that it's okay to treat you as a sex object, so long as you get your 'special treatment' in return.
I reject this 'special treatment'. This sends a message that I am not for sale and that I am not a sex object.
You'd do well to read some basic feminist lit 

when I was first researching transition and watching peoples before and after videos I came across this girl Who I thought was stunning before FFS. When I saw her after FFS video It was my personal opinion that she just became average and idk I really preferred her before :p



but to answer the question I prefer to be beautiful in my own eyes and be the image of who I want to be regardless of passing >.<

Quote from: Eve of Chaos on January 03, 2011, 04:00:45 PM
when I was first researching transition and watching peoples before and after videos I came across this girl Who I thought was stunning before FFS. When I saw her after FFS video It was my personal opinion that she just became average and idk I really preferred her before :p

That's often the case with any beautiful person who has cosmetic surgery done on their face. It's not a trans specific thing.

Quote from: Vexing on January 03, 2011, 02:25:31 PM


Patently untrue. All one needs to do is maintain an attitude of strength and independence.
Taking advantage of the 'special treatment' you describe is reinforcing the idea that it's okay to treat you as a sex object, so long as you get your 'special treatment' in return.
I reject this 'special treatment'. This sends a message that I am not for sale and that I am not a sex object.
You'd do well to read some basic feminist lit 

Or you can just take the special treatment for what it is, enjoy it, and still be independent and still have self value AND be a well rounded person. I am not a feminist so i don't care much for feminist literature, i think feminism actually makes things worse not better...that's just my opinion. I've taken women's studies in college and everybody seems very uptight. eh 

Quote from: KillBelle on January 03, 2011, 06:06:15 PM
Or you can just take the special treatment for what it is, enjoy it, and still be independent

That statement is inherently oxymoronic.

Quote from: Vexing on January 03, 2011, 06:21:04 PM
That statement is inherently oxymoronic.

It depends on what your version of "special treatment" is.  It's ok, i wish i had more time to simplify it but it could take days. 

How are you healing dear? Are you back to work yet?

Quote from: japple on January 03, 2011, 01:50:33 AM
That was my thought too, unfair.  Here is a fair video where she's done up: http://www.youtube.com/user/->-bleeped-<-Girl15#p/a/u/1/_tlGZzOAG4w

She's still a bombshell.

I agree with the 6-12 month after thing. It looks like she's having trouble speaking and moving her facial muscles because of the scarring probably left from significant contouring her jawline & genioplasty (chin surgery). Genioplasty alone severely impacts the ability to speak properly and you are still recovering from the surgery for at least a year. If you have a plate placed in to hold your chin in place, it makes it even more difficult to speak and control your lower lip.

Check up on her in 2 years and she could have all her facial mobility back since she's still a little stiff in the link above. For those who don't know, plastic surgery comes with much side effects and consequences. It's a give & take. If you're making a decision to have surgery done, you should consider the benefits and the risks from the surgery.

There are many factors to consider in surgery. You need to optimize your benefit while weighing the risks. Beauty is subjective and the results can be different person to person depending on the choices they make. A person can become uglier or prettier from surgery - it's a risk. No one says you can't become more beautiful from surgery. It depends on the situation, circumstances, and your choices.

Quote from: KillBelle on January 03, 2011, 06:24:49 PM
It depends on what your version of "special treatment" is.  It's ok, i wish i had more time to simplify it but it could take days. 

Because fetching snacks and beer for your boyfriend on demand is so independent 
P.S. what happens when the beauty is gone and you're so reliant on that special treatment?

Quote from: Vexing on January 03, 2011, 06:37:13 PM
Because fetching snacks and beer for your boyfriend on demand is so independent 
P.S. what happens when the beauty is gone and you're so reliant on that special treatment?

Well i don't do that for my boyfriend so i have no idea what you're talking about, some of us have both beauty and brains whereas others just think they do =]

I had this conversation with my mum and after 39 years as a thoroughly average looking person, I think that if I spent a fortune on ffs and such and looked stunning, I'm not all that sure that I'd have a clue how to deal with it! I don't even think that it's a question of feminism because
I think that all really good looking people get treated differently and very good looking women get treated very differently by other women as well as men and I think that you most likely need to have experienced this a little younger than I am to be able to adapt. I'll do what I need to do in terms of things that are obviously masculine but I've no real desire to look like Kylie!

I like the quiet life!

Quote from: Dee_pntx on January 03, 2011, 07:15:55 PM
This is a trick question, right??

I am very, very, very fortunate that I pass 100%, even when stripped down in two hospitals.  And yes, I am still pre-op. (but not for long)..

I am very plain and unattractive, I will never, ever be beautiful to anyone but I don't care.  What matters to me is that people see me 100% of the time as a woman.  My gender is *never* questioned by anyone and that's the best I can ever hope for.

I'll take it..

Don't be so hard on yourself, you are a LOT prettier than most people and you are even more beautiful just due to everything that you have been through in life. Beauty is 50% attitude and 50% confidence, you will get even more of that once you have fully transitioned =]

Quote from: KillBelle on January 03, 2011, 06:56:28 PM
Well i don't do that for my boyfriend so i have no idea what you're talking about,

Quote from: KillBelle on December 18, 2010, 03:04:17 PM
Not to mention sometimes my bf is so demanding and expects the house to be cleaned at all times, dinner on the table at 7, after dinner than football sunday is coming up so i have to make sure that "game food" is always readily available.  then after that i am exhausted and i worry about work and then all he wants to do is have sex and whine and get angry when i dont put it...when i DO put out  i am putting up a fake front and i dont even enjoy it. it sucks to be a trans woman but it sucks to be a woman in general.

So VERY independent of you.
Are you sure you're the only one using this account? Because you contradict yourself a lot.

Quotesome of us have both beauty and brains whereas others just think they do =]

Oh indeed. Indeed!