Quote from: Morgan on January 06, 2011, 12:03:43 PM

Really guys, though, why would I mess with my dose?! I didn't even do my first dose, a nurse did! I am very insulted, especially by Spacial.

You said in your opening post that the perscription was

Quote from: Morgan on January 04, 2011, 10:04:53 PM
I'm taking half a vial twice a month.

These are powerful drugs. I was simply suggesting that you stick to the perscription.

How you can call that suggestion, insulting is beyond me.

If you're asking for advice on increasing the perscription, yourself, most intelegent people, not to mention the regulations of Susans' would say no. These are matters which should be referred back to your Dr.

I will avoid responding to your posts in future.

Spacial, with respect, while casually reading through the thread, what you said about sticking to the dose confused me, and I can easily see how it might be taken as insulting by the OP. After re-reading it more carefully this remains the case.

Not being on T, or being interested in being on artificial T I have no direct knowledge and wasn't going to comment, but from what I read I understood this to be what happened:

Morgan went to the doctor for his first dose, was given a two dose vial, the nurse prepared the injection, showed Morgan the fill point on the syringe and went through the injection procedure. When it came time for the self administered second dose, Morgan emptied the vial and was short of the fill point. Wondering what was up with that, (ie: the second dose not being equal to the first and less than the amount of T he was instructed by his doctor to take) Morgan posted here going WTH.

As has since been covered in other posts this serum loss seems to be a known problem with this size vial, but what relevance the comment

Quote from: spacial on January 05, 2011, 03:52:32 PM
Suggest you stick to the perscription to be honest.

has to this situation escapes me, since at no point was Morgan talking about or trying to manipulate his dose against medical advice or was screwing up injecting himself.

I'd like to believe that was not your intent Spacial, but I could easily infer that you believe this to be the case from your comment, and this is only reinforced by your second post where you again mention self increasing dosages. You're the only person in the thread bringing this up. Not messing with prescribed dosages is always sound advice, but bringing that up where it has no relevance to the topic suggests a belief that this is whats occurring or being contemplated - I know if I was asking a technical question about injections and someone inferred I was messing with my dose, I'd be insulted and hurt.

I think this is simply an honest misunderstanding of the OP with unfortunate consequences, and I'd like to hear your thoughts on that.

Also, Morgan, apologies for butting in, and please tell me if I got it wrong 

Thanks for posting this Morgan because I've heard one or two guys say the same. I never thought about the fact that there would still be some in the needle.

Quote from: Morgan on January 06, 2011, 12:03:43 PM
Logan, my insurance covers it, so it's 8$ for a vial, so 1 prescription from my doc ends up totaling to 32$. The guy behind the counter said it would be something like 175$ for a 10ml vial, so he split it up into several vials and refills so that my insurance would cover it. 0_o Which didn't seem right to me, I'd never ever heard of it being that expensive for 10ml.

I have heard of that kind of pricing for T that isn't covered by insurance.

Morgan, I know what you're talking about. There's always just a little left in the vial, no matter how skillfully I draw the T. With a 10-mL vial, I only go a little short once, on my final shot--and I always make up the deficit with my next vial.

But I wonder if you would be better off just buying your T outside your insurance. I pay Strohecker's about $60 for a 10-mL vial, needles, and wipes. It's a good deal, maybe better than you're getting with your insurance.

Arch is right if that's the case. Also if you aren't okay with ordering online my T ends up being about $65 for a 10-mL vial and a good amount of syringes from CVS

Quote from: Andrew Scott on January 06, 2011, 09:58:44 PM
Arch is right if that's the case. Also if you aren't okay with ordering online my T ends up being about $65 for a 10-mL vial and a good amount of syringes from CVS

I wish I knew what is up with CVS. I had a friend tell me to try them, that they were really cheap without insurance. So I looked into it and was quoted well over a hundred dollars. I think it was close to two hundred.

Quote from: Arch on January 06, 2011, 11:18:31 PM
I wish I knew what is up with CVS. I had a friend tell me to try them, that they were really cheap without insurance. So I looked into it and was quoted well over a hundred dollars. I think it was close to two hundred.

That's weird Arch. Was it for 100 milligrams or 200 milligrams? Mine is 100 milligrams. That's weird though, I've heard that once before.

I'm on 200 mg/mL concentration, so maybe my friend was on 100 mg/mL. I don't think I asked, and I don't even remember who told me this now.

No worries, I'm fine with Strohecker's, and I have two compounding pharmacies here in town that I have yet to call.

Walgreens tried telling me I had to only get 1 ml vials for $30 after insurance because they could no longer get 10ml vials,(unless I went brand name for $200) the 10 ml vials were also $30 after insurance. I told them to stuff it and went to Stroheckers. All of a sudden, they can get my 10ml vial for $30 again. I'll stick to Stroheckers where we aren't playing that game. All the vials I had ended up a bit sort of the last dose. I'm still working my way through my first vial from Stroheckers tho. I see no reason to believe that it will be any different.

The prices are as Arch stated and you can take the receipts from Stroheckers and try for and likely get insurance reimbursement.

BTW, Walgreens original excuse for the 1 ml instead of the 10ml was that my insurance wouldn't cover it. When the 10ml showed up at Walgreens it was covered by insurance same as it was before they tried that trick.

Quote from: pixiegirl on January 06, 2011, 08:38:44 PM
Spacial, with respect, while casually reading through the thread, what you said about sticking to the dose confused me, and I can easily see how it might be taken as insulting by the OP. After re-reading it more carefully this remains the case.

Not being on T, or being interested in being on artificial T I have no direct knowledge and wasn't going to comment, but from what I read I understood this to be what happened:

Morgan went to the doctor for his first dose, was given a two dose vial, the nurse prepared the injection, showed Morgan the fill point on the syringe and went through the injection procedure. When it came time for the self administered second dose, Morgan emptied the vial and was short of the fill point. Wondering what was up with that, (ie: the second dose not being equal to the first and less than the amount of T he was instructed by his doctor to take) Morgan posted here going WTH.

As has since been covered in other posts this serum loss seems to be a known problem with this size vial, but what relevance the comment  has to this situation escapes me, since at no point was Morgan talking about or trying to manipulate his dose against medical advice or was screwing up injecting himself.

I'd like to believe that was not your intent Spacial, but I could easily infer that you believe this to be the case from your comment, and this is only reinforced by your second post where you again mention self increasing dosages. You're the only person in the thread bringing this up. Not messing with prescribed dosages is always sound advice, but bringing that up where it has no relevance to the topic suggests a belief that this is whats occurring or being contemplated - I know if I was asking a technical question about injections and someone inferred I was messing with my dose, I'd be insulted and hurt.

I think this is simply an honest misunderstanding of the OP with unfortunate consequences, and I'd like to hear your thoughts on that.

Also, Morgan, apologies for butting in, and please tell me if I got it wrong 

I was the third person to suggest that he sticks to the dose. My post quoted one of the earlier ones and made reference to it. The first word I used was: Agreed.

That is what Morgan has called insulting. Not the point, but that I was the third person to make it.

Morgan seem to be complaining that he doesn't think he is getting his full allocation of the drug. He even quotes the figure, twice, of `X ml.

His allocation is, by his own opening post, 1 vial, per month, in divided doses. That is the perscription. That is what has been deemed safe by the Dr. That is what should be used.

The implication in #2 #4 and #7 was that the dose was short.

Quote from: Morgan on January 05, 2011, 08:23:41 AM
No I didn't get the full amount, I got X mLshort of my dose the second time, that's what has me worried.

I was, like others, simply stating that he should stick to what has been prescribed.

Incidently, to back up #14. X ml is a lot.

It seems I was accused of being insulting because I didn't agree with this belief that he is somehow being cheated out of a miniscule amount.

But as I said, I won't be responding to any further posts from someone who chooses to take selective offense when they don't get the responses they are looking for.

Quote from: spacial on January 07, 2011, 03:35:32 AM
I was the third person to suggest that he sticks to the dose. My post quoted one of the earlier ones and made reference to it. The first word I used was: Agreed.

That is what Morgan has called insulting. Not the point, but that I was the third person to make it.

Morgan seem to be complaining that he doesn't think he is getting his full allocation of the drug. He even quotes the figure, twice, of `Xml.

His allocation is, by his own opening post, 1 vial, per month, in divided doses. That is the perscription. That is what has been deemed safe by the Dr. That is what should be used.

The implication in #2 #4 and #7 was that the dose was short.

I was, like others, simply stating that he should stick to what has been prescribed.

Incidently, to back up #14. X ml is a lot.

It seems I was accused of being insulting because I didn't agree with this belief that he is somehow being cheated out of a miniscule amount.

But as I said, I won't be responding to any further posts from someone who chooses to take selective offense when they don't get the responses they are looking for.

I don't think you understand. He IS sticking to his dose. He has NOT messed with his dose at all. All he is saying is that his first dose had the exact amount he was prescribed to take and then when he withdrew the rest from the vile to take his second shot, the amount was less. The exact same thing happened to me. He did NOT do anything to change his dose.

And I don't think you understand.

I was the third person to advise sticking to his prescription.

Whichever way you look at it, that was the impression he gave.

But he singled me out, twice, claiming I had offended him.

Quote from: spacial on January 07, 2011, 07:11:57 AM
And I don't think you understand.

I was the third person to advise sticking to his prescription.

Whichever way you look at it, that was the impression he gave.

But he singled me out, twice, claiming I had offended him.

Spacial, it seems there was a misunderstanding on your part as to what the OP was talking about. You assumed misuse of medication, he was offended and told you so. I don't see anyone else suggesting what you did. You misunderstood the OP, and made a comment which can be taken as offensive. Now maybe you did not mean it to be offensive, maybe you just misunderstood what was being discussed. But instead of recognizing the misunderstanding, you are taking it personally.

Just for the sake of clarity, a mL is a measure of volume.  Injectibles come in a variety of concentrations (X mg's in Y ml's).  Referring to the ml measurement is irrelevant to the dosage, because one ml for one person might be 20mg and for someone else its 40mg.  Conversely, being short 1mL might not be a big deal, or it might be a huge problem if its highly concentrated.

Purely from a clinical stand point, I'm getting tired of the "hormones are powerful stuff" mantra.  Of course they are, so are drugs that are capable of stopping your heart, sedating you, paralyzing, the list goes on and on and yet we trust people (usually doctors and nurses every day) to use those medications without feeling the need to warn them that they are "powerful stuff".  Insulin by definition is a hormone for that matter and yet do you ever hear someone warn a diabetic "insulin is powerful stuff".  To tell someone, anyone, that sex hormones are "powerful stuff" is to imply they're, well, retarded.  Who here, there or anywhere isn't well aware that sex hormones cause significant and mostly irreversable physical changes?

I for one vote that "hormones are powerful stuff" or anything close to it be banned in this forum.

Quote from: regan on January 09, 2011, 08:25:31 AMInsulin by definition is a hormone for that matter and yet do you ever hear someone warn a diabetic "insulin is powerful stuff". 

Actually, yes, I have, starting with my sixth-grade teacher. And any competent doctor or pharmacist or drug manufacturer does in fact warn people about the drugs they take. For example, both my doctor and my pharmacist counseled me about the Ambien I sometimes take. And every prescription drug I've ever taken has been accompanied by an extensive circular with warnings, contraindications, and possible side effects. A lot of people just ignore them.

I think most of us know about the two standard concentrations of T and the usual dosing range. But we also know that the amount we are prescribed is ALWAYS small, so the loss of a fraction of a milliliter every week can be significant. And we're not talking about a guy who is getting "only" 98% of the dose or something like that; we're talking about a guy who says he's getting maybe 80% of the dose every other week. That is a significant reduction. I think he is right to be concerned. Maybe not worried, but concerned.

I have a couple of acquaintances who are so sensitive to T fluctuations that they HAVE to use gel/cream, and I have a couple of acquaintances who didn't feel "right" until they were getting a fraction of a milliliter more or less than they were originally prescribed. A little change in dosage can cause noticeable effects.

I hear what you're saying about the "powerful stuff" refrain--it can get monotonous--but I don't see it as any different from what a responsible doctor, pharmacist, or drug company says all the time about any number of drugs, even OTC drugs. Since a lot of people (at least in the U.S.) do abuse or misuse prescription and nonprescription drugs, including sex hormones, I think the message bears repeating here on Susan's, where the vast majority of us either are on sex hormones or want to be on them.

After careful reflection, I have altered a number of posts (including one of my own) on this thread because there was too much dosage information--some of it inaccurate, actually, due to what I assume was a typo. I have preserved the thread as much as possible, and I think the thread was up long enough for Morgan to get some advice and information.

Morgan, I strongly suggest that you take your concerns to your health care provider. It's great to get feedback here on the site--now you know that you're not the only one who has a little T left in the vial--but you and your doctor are the ones responsible for your health care. Past a certain point, members of Susan's can't offer much advice because we wind up running afoul of the prohibition on dosage discussions.

For now, if you are injecting yourself, then your doctor might suggest that you draw just an eensy bit less every week so that your dosage is at least consistent. Or maybe not. Have you had a chance to discuss this with him/her yet?

My own dosage varies a little here and there because I'm not always accurate when I allow for the air in the vial. I've gotten more accurate over time, though, and I've found that as long as I inject weekly, these minor variations don't mess with my moods. I hope your short dose doesn't cause you any problems.

I'm hoping that the Strohecker's solution, or something like it, might help you--if not now, then on your next prescription.

Quote from: Arch on January 09, 2011, 06:33:12 PM
I hear what you're saying about the "powerful stuff" refrain--it can get monotonous--but I don't see it as any different from what a responsible doctor, pharmacist, or drug company says all the time about any number of drugs, even OTC drugs. Since a lot of people (at least in the U.S.) do abuse or misuse prescription and nonprescription drugs, including sex hormones, I think the message bears repeating here on Susan's, where the vast majority of us either are on sex hormones or want to be on them.

On that point I think we agree, however my biggest frustration is in how the message is delievered - often spoken by a much older transitioner to someone much younger.  I recognize the benenfits of a gatekeeper system, but the entire model is changing as we know it (I can think of about a half a dozen cases where a transgender child completed a social transition long before puberty was a concern).  We need to adapt with it.

Quote from: regan on January 11, 2011, 10:39:41 AM
On that point I think we agree, however my biggest frustration is in how the message is delievered - often spoken by a much older transitioner to someone much younger.  I recognize the benenfits of a gatekeeper system, but the entire model is changing as we know it (I can think of about a half a dozen cases where a transgender child completed a social transition long before puberty was a concern).  We need to adapt with it.

Yes, I see what you mean--that sort of patronizing tone can be very annoying and tiresome.

I don't really support a gatekeeper system, myself--more of a very careful informed consent system that makes sure that (1) people really are competent to make big life decisions and (2) folks really do know what they're getting into.

Didn't want to hijack, though...Morgan, how are you doing?

-sigh- I told myself I wouldn't look in this thread again because it stressed me out too much. I got curious seeing that Arch posted, so I peeked.. Bleh. Here goes.

Spacial, I re-read through the previous posts, and no you ARE the only one who told me to stick to my prescription. People insisting that I got the correct dose and not to worry about it too much is different than someone saying I'm trying to alter my medication and to stick to my prescription. I don't understand why you had to say it in such a catty and disrespectful way. I'm ashamed to have to have this conversation with someone who is supposed to be in the same boat as me, we're both transsexual, we both take/will be taking hormones, we both understand the ramifications both physically and socially of this drug. I do not mind that you won't be replying to my posts anymore, I don't want to interact with someone who acts this negatively. Selective offense, psh. 

For the record! I did a typo. I said 1ml short but meant to say .1ml short. It's cold where I live and I don't type too well when everything is all stiff from the weather And since Regan said that .1ml can be left in the reservoir of the needle, my question was successfully answered, not only by him, but by several others who have posted. Thank you everyone for the fast responses, I'm relieved that I'm not the only one who's come up short! It being only my second shot, and my first on my own, scared me to death 

Arch, sorry for posting too much about the dose. I tried to keep it as non-specific as I could but it's hard to talk about an incorrect dose without saying at least a little about dose. But thank you so much for sticking up for me, I felt pretty alienated. On another note, it wasn't that there was a little left in the vial, I worked with the needle for a good ten minutes getting every drop out, until there was NONE in the vial and I still came up .1ml short :/ Who knows.

As far as my insurance coverage goes, the pharmacist told me my prescription would have come to 175$ if I didn't split it up between the months. As I've stated, splitting it up into 1ml vials brought the total cost of my prescription to 32$. Which I found preposterous, so I won't be going back there if my dosage changes, making my insurance not cover it. I sadly cannot go to stroheckers because I live in Virginia, where they don't ship to.

Andrew, I'll be going to CVS most likely if my prescription gets increased next time, which it probably will. Thanks for the info on what price you get from them

I cannot see my Dr. until February because.. I don't even know why, she's not at the clinic I go to right now, for whatever reason. -shrug- I intend to ask my cousin who is a nurse if I should be worried, and what I can do to prevent this next time. As far as how the shortage affected me, I'm sure it did, but I'm so early in treatment that I don't think it'll be too bad. I'm seeing changes of course (body hair, mustache, voice, libido), but I do feel more agitated than I did on my first dose. To me, 80% of my dose is better than 0% of my dose and I'm so grateful to even be at this point in my life right now.

Thank you everyone who's responded, and extra thank yous to everyone who stuck up for me. Unless there is anything that anyone wants to say in response to this last post, I'm cool with this thread being finished, as my question has been answered. Sorry it turned into a drama llama, these things happen I guess.

PS. Logan, my girlfriend says you're hot.

Have you tried Walmart? I think they were cheaper with mine. Right now I use the Apothecary Shop which has the best price for mine but I don't know whether they're available where you are.