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I guess lesbians who don't want penetration don't lose their virginity either by her standards.

It's just a point of view. For me, sex is not just about penetration. I guess oral sex is still sex.
I don't care about losting my hymen, if I enjoy and have pleasure I consider it a good sex!

May I refer you to this thread: 'https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,90142.0.html'

I ranted on it about virginity somewhere down the first page. Hope it helps.

Penetration is an optional part of sex. I see sex as anything that gives an orgasm.

Quote from: Ryan on January 11, 2011, 11:28:15 AM
Penetration is an optional part of sex. I see sex as anything that gives an orgasm.

I understood what you meant, but I disagree. It's not that simply.
A lot of women have sex and never have an orgasm. Aren't they havin sex?

And if you're trying to say 'everything that's ABLE to give an orgasm', would masturbation be sex?

Meh.  My answer is that virginity really doesn't exist.  It's an antiquated idea born of a puritan need of controlling women's sexuality.  The whole concept becomes muddled when applied to men anyways, are gay men 'virgins' until they have anal intercourse, (providing we're overlooking the whole vagina requiring element of the original definition) and even then, does only receiving or giving count?  There's lots of ways to have sex, and lots of opportunities for new 'firsts'.  Who needs the concept of virginity, it's flawed at best.

The concept of virginity relates to the idea of a "loss of innocence".  Like everything else, that notion is evolving as well.

Why is it whether you're having sex or having a stroke, you make the same face?

In a very technical fashion, assuming nothing else does it, you'd be a virgin via no hymen breakage. But through just about every other definition of virginity you'd not be one. It's a pretty complicated issue but if you found out what her definition of virginity was then it'd be a lot easier to debate it.

My definition is that if you had voluntary sexual contact with another (voluntary) person you're no longer a virgin.
Obviously everyone has their definitions, this is mine.. I think most of us agree though that it doesn't take penetration.

In modern times, discussion with regard to the definition and significance of virginity are largely subsumed beneath various pseudo-scientific doctrines and various forms of political theater, some of which you have already witnessed here.  The biological foundation of virginity, however, has to do with the transfer of genetic information, both in the form of insemination (human DNA) and in the form of infection/infestation (viruses, bacteria, parasites).  The distinction between sexual and casual transmission is based on the unusual properties of genital skin and orifices.

In the context of political theater, one may form any number of subjective opinions regarding sex and gender, and may therefore define virginity arbitrarily, generally with an eye toward establishing one's credentials as a member of a victim class.

In the context of human biology, a virgin is someone who has not had sufficient bodily contact to risk either pregnancy (in either party) or venereal infection; essentially, virgins are known quantities in the sexual market.  Given that condoms and similar barriers are effective only against a limited range of venereal diseases, 'protected sex' constitutes a sufficient transfer.  If you've penetrated someone with a strap-on, you have exposed yourself to sexual infection at least once and are therefore no longer a biological virgin.

There also exist theological and objective anthropological definitions of virginity, but I assume that they are not germane.

As Kitian pointed out, if you wish to debate the concept of virginity with this woman, you must first discover her premises.  I suspect that one of those premises involves your anatomy; I suggest that you ask her what constitutes the loss of male virginity.

- N

I do think a line needs to be drawn somewhere. I don't think all sexual contact should count. Then you could loose your virginity with your pants on. I personally wouldn't say I was having sex with someone if it was just oral. That's like calling a TV dinner homemade.

Sharky yeah I agree, but in the end virginity has to do with experience (or lack thereof) so what is that? Does oral sex count? You say no, a lot of people here feel it takes penetration, some feel it takes that you risk  venereal disease (oral sex has this risk) Some feel it has to do with procreation.. In the end I can still think of people who are sexually active and apparently never loose their virginity.. In the end people do find their own definition, that is not political correctness that is practicality. Virginity is not tied to the bit of tissue at the entrance of the vagina, virginity is about sexual experience and as such is not biological. It became biological when people started prizing virginity (in women) to the point of wanting proof of virginity. The reason for wanting this proof and prizing a woman who has had vaginal intercourse is cultural and yes, political. It is not the definition of virginity and certainly not the original one. Throughout history the definition of what people considered a virgin to be has changed many times but at it's core it is about sexual experience without a carved in stone definition of what sexual experience constitutes exactly. 

There is no "technical" or "medical" definition of a virgin. Virginity is a cultural construct and so is defined culturally. And you can very easily be a virgin by the standards of one culture while being a non-virgin in another.

Since modern Western sexual culture revolves so much around STDs and pregnancy, definitions like Nimeton's are pretty common today. But attempting to retrofit that idea into past cultures and pass it off as a universal definitive definition is silly. Most pre-feminist definitions of virginity are exclusive to women (or sometimes, but rarely, applied to boys/young men in cultures that practiced certain forms of homosexual relationships) and grounded in an idea of women's bodies as the property of men and sexual penetration as an act of defilement/subjugation.

Yep, my point is that there is no one true end all definition. Basicly I think it's silly when other people try to tell someone they are or aren't a virgin on whatever criteria.  There is history but it has changed with changing culture. Biology of virginity seeks to measure a social construct. Can you loose your virginity with your pants on? Depends on your definition.. Does oral sex count? Does it have to include penetration of some kind? Is putting it in your mouth penetration? Does it have to do with having possibly been exposed to venereal disease? All opinions.
Do you feel you have sexual experience? If your answer is yes, then who can tell you you're a virgin? If your answer is no, who can tell you you're not?