Not trying to be confrontational, but when some trans women question the heterosexuality of all straight-identifying men who date pre-op trans women, it does several things:

1) Implies that trans women aren't really women and justifies genital-based bigotry.  I would get REALLY angry if I heard a cisgender person saying that.

2) Insults decent, straight men who see us as people rather than a set of genitals.

3) Increases the stigma against dating trans women, and thus increases violence against trans women.  (I doubt it helps trans men, either.)

4) Insults pre-op/non-op trans people of either gender.

Quote from: Valeriedances on January 07, 2011, 05:07:26 AM
When we are disclosing to a potential partner, what is it that we are disclosing? And what is the impact of disclosure?

Part of the problem is defining opposite sex (heterosexuality) and the meaning of Male-to-Female and Female-to-Male. It's too sensitive to discuss, which is sad, because so many of us are devastated by rejection and need support to cope. I just got a prescription yesterday for an anti-depressant from my endo because I am having such a hard time coping with this. For the past few weeks I feel like I'm on the ledge of a building about to jump off in despair over this topic.

I think one of my earlier posts could be considered offensive, insensitive and poorly worded in describing heterosexuality (reading back through the posts). I would edit/remove them but some of the discussion was responding to it and the thread would lose some context if I did. So I'll leave it for now, apologize and let the moderators review.

Ack.  I'm so sorry.  I wasn't really talking to you, but about this subject in general, because I've had this conversation recently elsewhere that went bad and gave me some issues, and I projected them onto this thread.  I'm sorry I came off being harsh about the whole genital issue. I'm so sorry you've gone through that.  I've kinda been having some issues the past week, too, relating to worrying about my genitals, and that's why I reacted so strongly, but I should have been more sensitive to you.  Anyway, my sincere apologies.

This is why Valerie

From my somewhat limited experience (my own)..... I decided to stay schtum about my unusual start.... er go.... I did it all in my late twenties....the change-over not in ma fifties.

But I found out to my cost personal/financially at the beginning of ma womanhood that revelations led to many bad f#cks ups most not of my making.... and now i view it naive that most would champion my amazing transformation... but this was back in the 1980's....lol

(And real life taught me otherwise)

Finally I was advised in fact in the end by a prof' counselor type to stop the full-frank revelations malarkey if I wanted to make better (safer) progress.... especially on my career stakes...

He was right.... and then I never looked back!

But then I was very lucky with ma physical transition.... and the amount of cis women at the start that would bitch behind my back (I was very attractive) was a clincher in work situations to remain coyer...

I'm fully aware of the need of 'some' to bare-chest, warts-n-all... and if you do not pass well..... then tis not an option to go deep stealth....

But we have many aspects of ourselves that are in fact totally private if we're all honest as such....

And white lies do make the world go round in fact... always have.... always will do while h'man beans rule the globe...

As to men, alpha's are oft highly visual hierarchy king-of-the-pile type creatures.... and if they fancy you (that way) tis primal for sure..... so tis obvious if you suddenly disclose your past right at the start....then the majority will flit to flight mode.... thinking 'jeez' you were one of them.... and heteromen are known to have strong anti-gay feelings instinctively.

So I'm not surprised the pattern repeats time and time again.... for you, it did for me once or twice right at the start, and i also didn't want to be doing with the ->-bleeped-<--->-bleeped-<- types either..... as some living fetish personae....

I feel you could try to give being more coy, reserved re your twist of fate.... if you wish to date 110% hetero chaps..... and ease yerslef in.... so to speak. Then see what happens? What have you really got to loose? And in reality why should you continue to be self-negating?

My current chap being a Muslim is a tad ultra-conservative to say the least.... and views homosexuality with great personal distaste...

Does this bother me?

No not really..... as I respect that we all have different feelings and views as individuals.... Does this help validate how girly I really am.? Perhaps maybe it does.....

Do i like gay peeps....definitely..... as i'm what you would call a thinking woman liberal.....*s->-bleeped-<-s* and one of my best g/f's is a lesbian..

Is the world black & white for some yes.....

But i like shade's-o-grey for sure....lol

Quote from: Cruelladeville on January 09, 2011, 12:35:50 PM
My current chap being a Muslim is a tad ultra-conservative to say the least.... and views homosexuality with great personal distaste...

Personally, I couldn't date a bigot.
Good luck with that.

I know of women who did not tell their fiancee's until after their prospective bf's proposed to them..Some broke up with them, some didnt..,but tell yourself..Would you have wanted to stay with someone that would break up with you because of this??  I know it is and can be unfair to not tell someone, but in my opinion, I would not tell them until it became more serious of a relationship.  If he leaves, then it is his loss.  I know how strong the desire for love and intimacy can be..but you must be strong. 

Amen Michelle, amen.

I've heard of many stories and believe it or not; many pull it off. For every one who is outed 5 get away with it.

Also allot of it has to do with how you sell yourself or what sort of transition you went through. I hate to oversimplify; but it's the same old attractiveness level problem that all women have. The attractive have nightmares trying to shift through masses of insecure spineless twerps, where as the unattractive will have a nightmare just finding someone at all. The former is why I could not stand to leave my love in the dark about my past after a month or so, he seemed so un fazed and genuine and now I know he is.

The vast majority of what is sold as love is just infatuation... It hard to believe that even just 30% of the random people I meet have the limited humility and selflessness needed to really love someone. Plenty of people I know are outwardly polite and nice and giving, but even among there ranks I know allot are simply not relationship types.

True love is rarer than hens teeth to begin with, the vast majority of lasting relationships are just because they can tolerate each other. But when 'we' find someone who wants to stay with us after finding out, and then years later you know we have it  The long relationship pretenders would never do so for someone who has transition in the past. People change, but the signs are always there if you are astute.

When i transitioned i fell in love with another post op who only wanted me as a pre op and soon left me after i was post op. I was open to pre or post or non op but it never happened maybe because i was a little desparate acting and hurt from her breaking up with me. I have been single ever since (over a dozen yrs) and personally never was attracted to men but did find some nice luvable lug guys as friends and they knew my past but we just were only friends which is all we both wanted. I also tried cisgendered girls but they seemed to just want to experience me so i moved on. I then realized that i was getting attention from too many men or males and so i switched back to dressing as male and trying to pull that off but everyone saw me as a FTM with no facial hair (except a few long hair straglers) and small bumps on my chest (after BAS removal) and ear ring holes. So i have given up and just spend my life helping the elderly, one now who is my mom. I know most MTF's and FTM's are not interested in me because i went back to dressing male so they are out as potential mates too now. I am happy though because this was never about finding love from others it was about finally loving myself. Yes in the beginning i thought i needed to be loved to be whole but i now know it was best to learn to love myself and not seek another to make me feel lovable. I hope you see this and know that many Trans do live single lives and its ok and we are ok and we are worthy and so open your mind because even outside of being trans many people live single lives full filled by doing a multiplicity of other things. And now being so many yrs post op sex only comes to me in my dreams which is enough for me.    Today i am open to sharing my home platonically speaking with someone older who just wants a nice roommate to share daily things in life.

Quote from: M2MtF2FtM on January 11, 2011, 05:31:23 AM
When i transitioned i fell in love with another post op who only wanted me as a pre op and soon left me after i was post op. I was open to pre or post or non op but it never happened maybe because i was a little desparate acting and hurt from her breaking up with me. I have been single ever since (over a dozen yrs) and personally never was attracted to men but did find some nice luvable lug guys as friends and they knew my past but we just were only friends which is all we both wanted. I also tried cisgendered girls but they seemed to just want to experience me so i moved on. I then realized that i was getting attention from too many men or males and so i switched back to dressing as male and trying to pull that off but everyone saw me as a FTM with no facial hair (except a few long hair straglers) and small bumps on my chest (after BAS removal) and ear ring holes. So i have given up and just spend my life helping the elderly, one now who is my mom. I know most MTF's and FTM's are not interested in me because i went back to dressing male so they are out as potential mates too now. I am happy though because this was never about finding love from others it was about finally loving myself. Yes in the beginning i thought i needed to be loved to be whole but i now know it was best to learn to love myself and not seek another to make me feel lovable. I hope you see this and know that many Trans do live single lives and its ok and we are ok and we are worthy and so open your mind because even outside of being trans many people live single lives full filled by doing a multiplicity of other things. And now being so many yrs post op sex only comes to me in my dreams which is enough for me.    Today i am open to sharing my home platonically speaking with someone older who just wants a nice roommate to share daily things in life.

You sound very nice. I have to say I personally don't care how my partner chooses to dress or present, that's up to them, and it certainly wouldn't deter me from a relationship anymore than what their plumbing arrangements were... I dunno but it seems to me that some people are rather narrow minded when it comes to love. For me friendship always comes first, and then love and physicality sometimes flow from that.

Shame you don't live in Cornwall or you could come and join the party that is starting to develop at our place. For the last 23 years Alison and I have been a married couple in every sense possible, but as we are getting older we are beginning to look towards establishing an extended "family" of like minded folk that can live together and support one another so that no one will have to face lonely senior years or the indignity of an old peoples home. Hopefully at 50 I am still a long way off such things, but I always believe in planning well ahead.

Quote from: rejennyrated on January 11, 2011, 08:54:38 AM
You sound very nice. I have to say I personally don't care how my partner chooses to dress or present, that's up to them, and it certainly wouldn't deter me from a relationship anymore than what their plumbing arrangements were... I dunno but it seems to me that some people are rather narrow minded when it comes to love. For me friendship always comes first, and then love and physicality sometimes flow from that.

Shame you don't live in Cornwall or you could come and join the party that is starting to develop at our place. For the last 23 years Alison and I have been a married couple in every sense possible, but as we are getting older we are beginning to look towards establishing an extended "family" of like minded folk that can live together and support one another so that no one will have to face lonely senior years or the indignity of an old peoples home. Hopefully at 50 I am still a long way off such things, but I always believe in planning well ahead.

Yes i wish i was there but i am here in the USA Pa. taking care of my mother who almost died 13 months ago but is doing much better with my care plus she isn't going crazy with people she doesn't recogniize. I do have a small farm with 6 acres and a old house that i am restoring and hope to find someone to share it with me so i won't be totally alone when mom passes

It also seems the 'find responses to your reply" button isn't working so i had to dig to find this post to respond. Today i am finishing up spackling the kitchen and should be painting it tomorrow. then all i have is the dinningroom to finish. Yesterday i finished the upstairs which was 4 bedrooms and hall and stairs.

Have you ever noticed that when you make a hard and fast statement Fate likes to make you eat your words.

Quote from: Northern Jane on January 06, 2011, 06:44:45 AMI have dated a LOT over the last few years and ....not a single guy has got past the point of 'disclosure'.

Well MUNCH MUNCH!

I recently met a guy through a (straight) on-line dating site and we exchanged a dozen or more emails only to find that we had a tremendous amount in common so we decided to meet for lunch on Monday. The conversation was extremely open, candid, ventured through a great many topics and I strongly felt a connection was developing. Lunch extended to three hours and toward the end of that time he reached across the table, took my hands in his, and stared into my eyes for the longest time. Finally I asked him "What?" and he said in a far away voice, "I think I have been staring into the face of my future." ***GULP! *** That brought a lump to my throat! And I  just about melted in his goodbye kiss!

Things were getting serious so I told him about my childhood in a series of 3 emails (so as not to get too lengthy). After each one he wrote back and said "This does not change how I feel about you!" and after the final one "OMG, that must have been pure hell for you. Call me!" The first thing he said on the phone was "This does not change how I feel....." and we moved on.

I don't know where this will end up but I have to retract my statement about "not a single guy"!

Quote from: Northern Jane on January 12, 2011, 11:56:59 AM
Finally I asked him "What?" and he said in a far away voice, "I think I have been staring into the face of my future." ***GULP! *** That brought a lump to my throat! And I  just about melted in his goodbye kiss!

It's probably a generational thing, but if a guy said that to me on our first lunch date, I would RUN!!!

Quote from: Northern Jane on January 12, 2011, 11:56:59 AM
Have you ever noticed that when you make a hard and fast statement Fate likes to make you eat your words.

Well MUNCH MUNCH!

I recently met a guy through a (straight) on-line dating site and we exchanged a dozen or more emails only to find that we had a tremendous amount in common so we decided to meet for lunch on Monday. The conversation was extremely open, candid, ventured through a great many topics and I strongly felt a connection was developing. Lunch extended to three hours and toward the end of that time he reached across the table, took my hands in his, and stared into my eyes for the longest time. Finally I asked him "What?" and he said in a far away voice, "I think I have been staring into the face of my future." ***GULP! *** That brought a lump to my throat! And I  just about melted in his goodbye kiss!

Things were getting serious so I told him about my childhood in a series of 3 emails (so as not to get too lengthy). After each one he wrote back and said "This does not change how I feel about you!" and after the final one "OMG, that must have been pure hell for you. Call me!" The first thing he said on the phone was "This does not change how I feel....." and we moved on.

I don't know where this will end up but I have to retract my statement about "not a single guy"!

I hate to say I told you so...

but...

I told you so!

It may take a little longer to get hitched with honesty (and in my view honor) but there ARE enough men out there who can understand that you don't have to end up with a fellow traveler unless you want to. I chose Alison over various cis suitors. I may sometimes wonder why but I did and I would do so again. 

Quote from: Vexing on January 12, 2011, 12:02:25 PM
It's probably a generational thing, but if a guy said that to me on our first lunch date, I would RUN!!!

I guess one had to experience the emotions and the openness of the moment to realize it wasn't "a line" but coming straight from the heart.

One of the things I like about you Jane is your open honesty.

Fate also likes to make me eat my words alot also...