Quote from: Brianna on January 06, 2007, 10:29:47 PM
Kristi,

One of the main things I learned in college is that it's easier to use emotions than logic. I know I'm guilty of that, but I feel like you beth are making this logical error as well.

I agree with everything, absolutely everything, you said in your post. I don't hate Christians, and I don't want them to not have the ability to practice their religion. What I do want is for them to completely free of them pushing their influence into the public square.

Hi Brianna!  First, thanks for answering my post.  I think this is the first time you've done so, and I really appreciate it.  One of the things I learned in my 11 1/2 years of college (that's right...in some circles I'm  called doc) was to never judge a doctrine or a system of belief by the way some people abuse it.  Christianity, Judaism, and virtually every other religion, down to some I've encountered in remote parts of Africa, has been abused in the past.  And they probably will be in the future.  But this is not how I judge a doctrine or belief.  This is not emotionalism.  It is intellectual honesty.

I do stand by what I said in the earlier post that I support everyone's right to practice his/her religion in private and in public.  That includes you.  And it includes Christians with whom I differ and those with whom I agree.  And I feel free to form alliances with those of different faiths when appropriate.  The truth is that we vote for people who represent our values, at least as often as we can.  Right?  So why should we not expect people of all persuasions to be politically active?  That's the beauty and the curse of the country in which we live.  I don't think I would have it any other way.

How awesome to see that we do agree on some things.  I hope this will give us some common ground to have some genuine discussions. 

Quote from: Brianna on January 06, 2007, 10:29:47 PM
I think you are making a beautiful argument, but I think it's irrelevant to what mainstream Christians are doing in America. They are trying to put the 10 commandments in court houses, demonize gays and enforce their alleged "moral" agenda. I want this nonsense completely out of the public square.

Well, it's precisely not irrelevant to mainstream Chritianity, or, more properly, mainline Christianity, which still comprises the vast majority of Christians in this country.  It appears to me that, even so, you may never have encountered it if the things I say sound strange to you.  The truth is, it's not flashy, and often not newsworthy.  If you are unsure as to what that means let me know and I'll say more.  Don't we usually hear mostly about either the radical right or the radical left?  I personally think both extremes are a bit dangerous.

Most of the ones I've met who want to put either a Bible or the 10 commandments in the courthouse want to do it as a historical monument of some kind, along with great legal codes from a host of other cultures.  I, for one, don't want to see the secular government be forced to subscribe to any religion.  Even if it's mine, it could easily backfire as soon as the political winds change.  No thanks!   But neither do I want to see our history revised to the point where we cannot be honest about the historical facts.  So this is a touchy one.

Quote from: Brianna on January 06, 2007, 10:29:47 PM
I'd love a day where we could all get in a car with a coworker knowing that religion was a private enough thing to to never mention.

On this we mostly agree.  But neither would I want to be prohibited from having honest religious discussions with those who want to do so.  That, to me would be the worst form of oppression.  I think a better answer would be the freedom to discuss without the fear of retribution or hatred.

Quote from: Brianna on January 06, 2007, 10:29:47 PM
Lastly, think it's unfair when I hear Christians talk about how superior their religion is to the Muslim religion. In regards to practiced religion in America, I think that Muslims are a much less dangerous and less violent - ie. not supporting the multitude of American war crimes.

Well, this is another topic completely and one we could discuss if we wanted to, though I would suggest a separate topic.  Islam is a vastly multifaceted religion, difficult for most Americans to understand.  I know the media doesn't get it.  And I have Muslim friends.  But there are some real dangers there within some sects.  Again, this would be a LONG exposition.

Quote from: Brianna on January 06, 2007, 10:29:47 PM
I don't hate Christians, and I don't want them to not have the ability to practice their religion.

OK, I'll take your word for that.  And I may remind you of it in the future.  But I will just say that it SOUNDS like you hate all Christians and are rather proud of that fact.  I don't think we need to perpetuate hatred towards anyone, intended or not, anywhere public or private.

Thanks again, Bri!

Kristi

But Beth, blacks are not  "trying to put the 10 commandments in court houses, demonize gays and enforce their alleged "moral" agenda."  

Unfortunately, there are zealots who really are pushing a very intolerant political agenda.  They have used our own intolerant bigotry to sway elections by introducing the anti gay marraige bill in states where elections were too close to call in advance. Intolerance is being pushed around the world under the guise of two major faiths.  I won't call them Christians and Muslims (although they proclaim themselves to be so), I'll only refer to them as zealots.  For they do not represent all who call themselves Christians and Muslims.  The true doctrine of any "children of the Book" is one of peace and tolerance.  In practice it is different.

I too had a strong hatred towards my conservative Mormon faith and upbringing for many years after my transition.  I had been hurt badly and that is a painful wound to heal.  Bri and I share that experience in common.  But there is this other political aspect to religious views we are seeing scripted. Tens of thousands of lives are being lost to this intolerance.  It is more than unsettling to say the least.  

Bri will somehow learn to live with her past and perhaps someday forgive those who have hurt her as I have (for the most part).  But neither she nor I can ever give in to the intolerance and bigotry being expressed from the public pulpit, religious or political.  

So, my rift isn't necessarily with the world's great religions, it's the zealots performing their intolerant crimes in the name of their religion.  Unfortunately, zealots and their religions get mixed into the same bag by the populace.  We here in the states generally have a negative view of Muslims around the world for pushing their intolerant attitudes.  In Muslim countries, they feel the same way about the United States (or Christians).

When I am confronted by someone who wants to "share" their religious feelings, I am completely open to listening.  When they want to convert me, I am not.  I am very cordial about it and I don't believe that I offend anyone.  But when it comes to the intolerance being spewed in the name of God against us, any other minority, or people,  I become enraged and indignant.

Bri shows her righteous indignation in a very blunt form.  Unfortunately, her words can be inflamatory, not separating the good and quiet people who are models of their faith from those who stand out in moving the political direction of our country.  Yes, those are the zealots performing their devious works under the name of their religion.  And in that, most of the country is guilty of the same darned thing.

We are extremely fortunate to have people like Beth and Kristi here to lend a bit of tempured maturity to the conversation.  As they have correctly pointed out, it is usually inappropriate to assign atrocity blame to any macro group, for the the culprits are typically in the minority.  To do so makes us guilty of the same thing for which we are whining.

However, we need the ferver and conviction that Bri brings to the conversation.  Without that bite, we will allow ourselves to be stomped on and enslaved.  We will totally lose our rights if we do not keep up the fight.

So Bri, consider your words a bit more carefully, but keep up the spunky attitude.  Beth and Kristi, please keep those words of consolidation and patience coming.  I'm sure that you help many of us ponder these issues a bit more carefully.

And for everyone else who sits on the fence and does nothing, you will lose.  You can't win if you don't play.

Chin up!

Cindi

Quote from: Cindianna_Jones on January 06, 2007, 11:59:58 PM
But Beth, blacks are not  "trying to put the 10 commandments in court houses, demonize gays and enforce their alleged "moral" agenda."   

Actually, Cindi, in my city, that's where the main groundswell of support is coming from.  But like everythihg else, be careful not to make generalizations.  Generally, you are wrong if you do. 

Quote from: Cindianna_Jones on January 06, 2007, 11:59:58 PMUnfortunately, there are zealots who really are pushing a very intolerant political agenda. 

I find those on the far left and the far right both quite intolerant.

Quote from: Cindianna_Jones on January 06, 2007, 11:59:58 PMI too had a strong hatred towards my conservative Mormon faith and upbringing for many years after my transition.  I had been hurt badly and that is a painful wound to heal.

O Cindy, I'm sorry.  I didn't realize that.  It may surprise you to know that I've worked with a number of what we call "Recovering Mormons" over the years.  You have my sympathy (but not my pity...you're too strong to need pity).

Quote from: Cindianna_Jones on January 06, 2007, 11:59:58 PMAnd in that, most of the country is guilty of the same darned thing.

Hmmm, I think that's a bit too strong.

Quote from: Cindianna_Jones on January 06, 2007, 11:59:58 PMWe are extremely fortunate to have people like Beth and Kristi here to lend a bit of tempured maturity to the conversation. 

[blushes]

Quote from: Cindianna_Jones on January 06, 2007, 11:59:58 PMSo Bri, consider your words a bit more carefully, but keep up the spunky attitude.

Couldn't have said it better.  A friend of mine told me that changing public opinion is a lot like having sex:  If you have the passion, you'll find the method.  Do keep up the spunk.  I look forward to seeing what happens when it is used in a constructive, rather than a destructive method.

P.S. Still wanna hear about the guitar you play....


Peace,
Kristi

I discussed this post in detail with my puppy "hunny" and she thinks that we are not tuned in enough to offer anything of value, considering all of you have enriched this post with good information, passion, emotion, facts, and opinons!
Hunny and i will just peek in and read along..
that's all we have to add, oh ........Woof!
Oh ...play nice or i'll get my heavy duty kitchen aid mixer out and then it'll get rough, hehe.....
Ricki

Indeed Kristi, generalizations are generally wrong.  In terms of far left... I don't really think that it exists any more.  The real Communists (the Marxist type, not the dictatorship type) would be what I consider far left.  If you talk to those who are considered these days "far left", you may find them surprisingly in line with what was considered moderate in the early 60's.  Take a look at Ike.  He was Republican, yet now, he might be considered a lefty these days.  

I posted my guitar info in another thread in the appropriate forum.

https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,9159.msg65989.html#msg65989

Cindi

Quote from: VeryGnawty on January 06, 2007, 07:27:58 AM

Quoteat (hopefully rare) times it may become necessary to offend someone, but usually I think offending someone is counterproductive.

There is a difference between offending someone, and someone taking offense.  Sometimes, someone will inevitably take offense.

However, it is never necessary to offend someone.

I may agree; this may be an issue of semantics.  In those "hopefully rare" times, you can be gentle and respectful about it, but it may be necessary to say something to which you know the person will inevitably take offense.  An example we can probably agree on: if I know someone struggles with pedophilia, and is paying what, in my opinion, is too much unwarranted attention to a kid, I might caution that person in some way.  I may know there is a very good chance he will take offense, but if I think it's necessary for the safety of the kid, I will still say something.

Quote from: Kristi on January 07, 2007, 06:07:59 PM

Quote from: Cindianna_Jones on January 06, 2007, 11:59:58 PMUnfortunately, there are zealots who really are pushing a very intolerant political agenda. 

I find those on the far left and the far right both quite intolerant.

The "intolerance" spoken of here is, I believe, the result of people have differing standards of morality.  It also seems that legislating morality is somewhat unavoidable.  In the U.S., freedom doesn't mean you can go do whatever you want, because laws constrain our behavior, putting things into "acceptable" or "unacceptable" buckets.  These laws were put in place because of someone's moral convictions, regardless of whether they came from religious or secular beliefs. (If there are exceptions, feel free to point them out. I just can't think of one right now.)  The problem is that people have differing views on whose morality should be legislated.  On hot topic issues, all sides seem to accuse others of having a political "agenda" and seem frustrated that "gosh! They just don't get IT, do they?"  I think these articles say it pretty well:

http://volokh.com/archives/archive_2005_05_29-2005_06_04.shtml#1117549260
http://volokh.com/archives/archive_2005_05_29-2005_06_04.shtml#1117638505

I haven't read a lot of Eugene Volokh, but from what I've read, he seems quite lucid.  A few quotes from his articles:

Quote
Ah, but at least you're forcing moral views on others, not forcing religious views on them, some say. So what? How is (1) someone's gut feeling that an eight-month old fetus is so much like a baby that surely it shouldn't be killed a more legitimate basis to write laws than (2) someone's deduction from the Bible that any fetus can't be killed? For that matter, how is a secular moral axiom that born babies are as entitled to live as we are a more legitimate basis to write laws than a religious moral axiom to the same effect?

All of us draw lines in this field, whether at conception, viability, birth, or whenever else. None of us can prove the validity of those lines through science or through abstract logic.

Quote
Whether the backers of such prohibitions support the prohibitions for religious reasons or secular moral reasons, the prohibitions interfere with some women's decision to abort a fetus late in the pregnancy.
...
Yet such justifications do restrict our conduct. I don't see why religious people's justifications, based on their religious axioms, should be condemned as illegitimate, while nonreligious people's nonreligiously based justifications, based on their secular axioms, are somehow proper.

Thoughts?

Joseph

p.s. Mods - we seem to have strayed from the intention of the original post. Feel free to put this post in a different thread if that's the right thing to do.

i don't believe in any religion because of the teachings and contradictions in the holy scriptures (muslim, jewish and christian), the holocaust, the crusades, the thing that islamic extremists are supposed to be doing, also it's very unrealistic.
i read about the origins of the bible and it seemed so man made that i realized that it was not the [word of god] but man.
i further realized that the only way there could be a god was if he/she were a sadistic being who liked seeing the drama that unfolds in our planet.

Quote from: katia on January 08, 2007, 12:36:58 AMthat i realized that it was not the [word of god] but man.

Oh really? And just how did you realize this? If you choose to make incendiary statements such as this, kindly cough up some facts to back them up.

Quote from: Nero on January 08, 2007, 12:49:30 AM

Quote from: katia on January 08, 2007, 12:36:58 AMthat i realized that it was not the [word of god] but man.

Oh really? And just how did you realize this? If you choose to make incendiary statements such as this, kindly cough up some facts to back them up.

How is her opinion any more incendiary than an opinion that a religion is true and one of those books does represent the word of a god? I would like to see some facts proving a certain religious text is in fact the word of a god. Supernatural claims require supernatural proof.

Quote from: Nero on January 08, 2007, 12:49:30 AM

Quote from: katia on January 08, 2007, 12:36:58 AMthat i realized that it was not the [word of god] but man.

Oh really? And just how did you realize this? If you choose to make incendiary statements such as this, kindly cough up some facts to back them up.

it wasn't an [incendiary] statement. i'm entitled to my own opinions and beliefs as anyone else, sorry if it bothered you but it's what i believe. 
my [coughed up] facts or resources and there are many more if anyone bothers to look to [back themselves up]

http://www.nvcc.edu/home/lshulman/Bible.html

I don't mind if people have high moral standards.  That's good.  But when they infringe upon my rights or others.... like when they KILL them, I tend to get a little upset.  And when they sit all prim and proper and spew religious values to support their acts of killing, I get sick.

I heard my husband tell someone once "you must be religious person".  To which this fellow responded "Why yes I am, how did you know?"  My husband response was "because you are telling me how I should live my life."

I believe that everyone who posts here is for the most part very tolerant and willing to discuss many issues without getting upset. That's one of the reasons I really like this forum.  People have open minds and are willing to disagree and state their case.

Cindi

Is the Bible True? - A Remarkable Book
Is the Bible true? Certainly the Bible is a remarkable book -- unquestionably the world's all-time bestseller with countless millions of copies in print. A single Bible distribution organization reported delivering over 627,000,000 Bibles worldwide in one year alone (United Bible Societies, 1999). Actually, the Bible is a compilation of 66 books written by over 40 separate authors from a variety of backgrounds (from lowly peasants to noble kings) over a period of at least 1,600 years. These 66 books are divided in two principle parts, the "Old Testament" (39 books) and the "New Testament" (27 books). The Bible was completed in its entirety nearly 2,000 years ago and stands today as the best-preserved literary work of all antiquity with over 24,000 ancient New Testament manuscripts discovered thus far. Compare this with the second best-preserved literary work of antiquity, Homer's Iliad, with only 643 preserved manuscripts discovered to date.

Is the Bbile true? Many brilliant people deny that the Bible is true, so obviously sheer intelligence is not the key to faith in the Bible. It does take faith to believe.
Jillieann

i know of another bestselling book with millions of copies sold worldwide [gone with the wind].
my opinion is that it takes courage to stand up for what you believe in whether it is in [god], or in [NO-god], whether it is [FOR] or [against] religion. if you have something that you believe in you should stand up for it no-matter what people say or do to you.

Quote from: katia on January 08, 2007, 01:06:39 AM

Quote from: Nero on January 08, 2007, 12:49:30 AM

Quote from: katia on January 08, 2007, 12:36:58 AMthat i realized that it was not the [word of god] but man.

Oh really? And just how did you realize this? If you choose to make incendiary statements such as this, kindly cough up some facts to back them up.

it wasn't an [incendiary] statement. i'm entitled to my own opinions and beliefs as anyone else, sorry if it bothered you but it's what i believe. 

I've no problems whatsoever with someone stating their own opinions or beliefs. I take absolutely no issue with someone saying, "I don't believe in the Christian god (or any god at all for that matter)." or saying, "I don't believe the Bible is the word of god, but man."
But you stated that the Bible is not the word of god, as if it were fact. Which is why I asked you to produce some.

Quote from: Nikki_W on January 08, 2007, 12:57:51 AM

How is her opinion any more incendiary than an opinion that a religion is true and one of those books does represent the word of a god? I would like to see some facts proving a certain religious text is in fact the word of a god. Supernatural claims require supernatural proof.

I don't need facts, as I am not the one touting my personal opinion as fact.

Quote from: katia on January 08, 2007, 12:36:58 AM
i read about the origins of the bible and it seemed so man made that i realized that it was not the [word of god]

Or maybe it is the word of God.

Perhaps we are just lacking in literacy skill.

my original post read:

Quote from: katia on January 08, 2007, 12:36:58 AM
i don't believe in any religion because of the teachings and contradictions in the holy scriptures (muslim, jewish and christian), the holocaust, the crusades, the thing that islamic extremists are supposed to be doing, also it's very unrealistic.
i read about the origins of the bible and it seemed so man made that i realized that it was not the [word of god] but man.
i further realized that the only way there could be a god was if he/she were a sadistic being who liked seeing the drama that unfolds in our planet.

i stated that i didn't believe that the bible was the word of god because of: [the teachings and contradictions in the holy scriptures (muslim, jewish, and christian) after i was asked to [cough up] my source, i provided the following link:
http://www.nvcc.edu/home/lshulman/Bible.html

i could provide many more if i'm asked again.

Quote from: neroI don't need facts

not fair....

Quote from: Nero on January 08, 2007, 09:17:06 AM
I take absolutely no issue with someone saying, "I don't believe in the Christian god (or any god at all for that matter)." or saying, "I don't believe the Bible is the word of god, but man."

Are you sure? because that's exactly what she said.

Quote from: katia on January 08, 2007, 12:36:58 AM
i don't believe...

Quote from: Nikki_W on January 08, 2007, 12:57:51 AM

How is her opinion any more incendiary than an opinion that a religion is true and one of those books does represent the word of a god? I would like to see some facts proving a certain religious text is in fact the word of a god. Supernatural claims require supernatural proof.

I don't need facts, as I am not the one touting my personal opinion as fact.
[/quote]

She didn't even say "fact" she said what she believes and how she came to that opinion. Do non-believers have to lace their sentences with hundreds of careful qualifiers to avoid you taking offense?

Granted I'm new but if this thread is typical of religious views on this site it's very skewed to intolerance of atheists. The way I see it we can't express our views without moderators comparing us with racists or calling our views incendiary.

Is the official stance here that to avoid offending the christians on this site atheists should quietly listen to religious views and not express their own? I can't even talk about my bi- friends at home without being told I shouldn't be friends with them simply because they are bi-. Forget talking about my own religious views, gender identity, or sexual orientation. Pretty sad I come here and find while my identity and orientation are welcomed my atheism should be checked at the door or watered down with so many qualifiers you can't find what I believe for the forest of "I believes".

Nikki, no it is not sad.  There are many here who feel the way you do.  I believe that many of us have become disenfranchised with religious beliefs due to the tough hand we've been dealt by "god". The rub is further chafed by the treatment we get by some groups of religious people. And there are also a few who have come to these conclusions even without those influences.

I don't pronounce my beliefs as atheism.  But I do not believe in the supernatural.  I do not ascribe things I don't understand to a god.  I do feel an intense spiritualism however... call it love for all life and my fellow man.

We had a thread a while back about my non church and many members elected to not be members.  That was pretty fun while it lasted.

We do get discussions of this sort from time to time.  Personally, I enjoy them and I hope that we do not chase anyone away. 

Don't go away!

Cindi

Nikki,

  Please don't go away.  I really agree with what Cindi said here:

Quote from: Cindianna_Jones on January 08, 2007, 01:14:38 AM
I believe that everyone who posts here is for the most part very tolerant and willing to discuss many issues without getting upset. That's one of the reasons I really like this forum.  People have open minds and are willing to disagree and state their case.

Actually, you should know I was totally cracking up when I read all the replies on this thread today.  It wasn't because it was typical.  It was because I totally didn't expect the thread to go the way it did, and that's one reason I like Susan's - people aren't predictable in the boring sort of way.  My guess is the thread might have gone the way it did because every so often people may feel like we've had the bulk of opinions go one way... then people want to make sure the other side (or sides) gets a fair shake.  I'm not saying anyone was wrong in what they did at all; but if you read further on this site, you'll see that opinions vary very widely - some people feel very strongly about religion, and others do not.  Generally, we have heard opinions lately on how religion is the root of evil, etc, and I think sensitivities may have made the thread go in the direction that it went.  Since people know how it is to be stereotyped because we are TG/TS/CD, it seems we generally don't like it when we think other groups may be getting treated similarly.  That's just my guess.  Maybe I'm way off, but it seems reasonable to me right now.  I hope you do choose to browse a bit more and perhaps you'll consider joining our little community.   

All the best,
Joseph

Yes, please Nikki stay with us.
Oh and about the Bible being the "Word of God" or the" Word of Man". I think the bible is mostly stories. The book has stories about everyday people with all there struggles and problems. Stories are about great nations, of war, and of love to name a few. There are also songs and poems in the bible expressing people's feelings. Many of the stories are uplifting and others are sad and some are even awful. It tells about tragedy, suffering, death, birth and joy. The Bible stories actually document many of the things that life deals out to many of us.  So yes there are many words in the Bible that have nothing to do with God's "Word's" they have to do with people had believed in him and how they lived there life around that belief. Sometimes they got it right and some times they didn't. Also there are places in the bible where Gods words and his miracles have been written down. But even then it is often written by one author's perspective. (You know how journalists are.) The most important stories have more than one author. Why? I believed to give a better more complete picture about things that are important; that need to be understood and learned from. By the way the most repeated story in the bible is the life and death of Jesus.
I don't know if any of this make sense to you but it is my opinion and what I believe.
You may disagree and I will not be offended.
Katia you are my TS sister no mater what you believe about the bible or God and I will respect your opinion.