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breasts...

Started by ffern, January 16, 2011, 03:04:59 PM

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ffern

Um well more a question about breast enhancement creams.  I was thinking about geting some but well, Im sort of wondering if they have any side effects. in my internet research type stuff so far they all seem to say they are safer than the alternatives (though to be fair they are trying to sell them) but i cant seem to find any list of side effects. um im not sure if this sounds stupid but the thing i was thinking about was if they might cause infertility?
"I decided that I was a lemon for a couple of weeks. I kept myself amused all that time jumping in and out of a gin and tonic."
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Jaimey

Have you checked the mtf forum?  You might find a thread there...I can't imagine that no one has brought it up (and it seems like it would come up more often over there than it does here...it's been a while since I've seen one over here, though they do pop up every now and then). 
If curiosity really killed the cat, I'd already be dead. :laugh:

"How far you go in life depends on you being tender with the young, compassionate with the aged, sympathetic with the striving and tolerant of the weak and the strong. Because someday in life you will have been all of these." GWC
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ffern

i might, thanks , i wasnt really sure where to put it :-\
"I decided that I was a lemon for a couple of weeks. I kept myself amused all that time jumping in and out of a gin and tonic."
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Kinkly

for a while I was trying the herbal route and I made up some fenugreek tea and put a little bit of that with some normal moisturising cream and massaged them on my breasts when I finally went to "real hormones" I stoped doing the tea and rubbing in the tea regularly and my breasts shrunk a little but eventually grew to the size I was before when I was doing the tea & massages dayly
I don't want to be a man there from Mars
I'd Like to be a woman Venus looks beautiful
I'm enjoying living on Pluto, but it is a bit lonely
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chrishoney

Quote from: perlita85 on January 16, 2011, 06:02:40 PM
There is no medical evidence that they work on anybody, period. Do not waist your money. Seek the help of an endocrinologiest

There is also no medical evidence that they don't work, either. In fact, there is little to no "medical research" done on herbals since 98% of "medical research" to develop medicines is done by big pharma, and there is no way for a drug company to profit from an herb in the same way they can from "medicines" (ie. patents.) So, no one has done ANY research on them.

Most are likely ineffective, or if they have an effect it is so weak as to be unnoticeable for all practical purposes. I have done considerable research into some of the herbs recommended for natural breast enhancement (google that for more info) and pueraria mirifica seems to get the best results. In cis-females it can interfere with the normal menstrual cycle and is contraindicated if one is pregnant or on hormonal birth control. For cis-males the side effects mainly amount to increased breast size and decreased libido. It is also supposed to be beneficial for the skin and hair, and reportedly reverses going gray in some people. Quite a few males on several internet forums have reported an overall feminization in their bodies in terms of speed of body hair growth (slower), skin (softer) and fat distribution (more around the hips, buttocks and of course around he breasts) as well as a psychological calming that goes along with reduced libido. Like susans' it is the internet and you can't believe everything you read.

Just as with artificial hormones (HRT), your mileage will vary (some trans women don't grow breasts at all, some do.) With herbs in general it is usually a long term process--that is, if it works at all for you, don't expect to see results in a week or even a month. Typically it takes on the order of 2 to 3 months to start seeing measurable (with a tape measure) results.

Hope this helps.

I believe in nothing; everything is sacred.
I believe in everything; nothing is sacred. (The Chink, in "Even Cowgirls Get the Blues")
Embrace the chaos.
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Keroppi

QuoteMost are likely ineffective, or if they have an effect it is so weak as to be unnoticeable for all practical purposes. I have done considerable research into some of the herbs recommended for natural breast enhancement (google that for more info) and pueraria mirifica seems to get the best results. In cis-females it can interfere with the normal menstrual cycle and is contraindicated if one is pregnant or on hormonal birth control. For cis-males the side effects mainly amount to increased breast size and decreased libido. It is also supposed to be beneficial for the skin and hair, and reportedly reverses going gray in some people. Quite a few males on several internet forums have reported an overall feminization in their bodies in terms of speed of body hair growth (slower), skin (softer) and fat distribution (more around the hips, buttocks and of course around he breasts) as well as a psychological calming that goes along with reduced libido. Like susans' it is the internet and you can't believe everything you read.
Those are exactly the effects of estrogen and or anti-androgen. Can herbal medication indeed have the desired effects like that of artificial synthesised chemicals? Of course, if they happened to have just the right chemical make up. It's part of how traditional Chinese medicine works for thousands of years. The problems is Chinese herbology collected knowledge of what works and what doesn't has been build up over thousands of years. Whereas most of what's sold as herbal drugs in the West such as these creams has no more basis than the manufacture packaging it and claiming it works.

QuoteUm well more a question about breast enhancement creams.  I was thinking about geting some but well, Im sort of wondering if they have any side effects. in my internet research type stuff so far they all seem to say they are safer than the alternatives (though to be fair they are trying to sell them) but i cant seem to find any list of side effects. um im not sure if this sounds stupid but the thing i was thinking about was if they might cause infertility?
As such, even if you were lucky enough to find one that work, the chances are the overall effects would be similar to that of artificial synthesised drugs. That mean all of the effects, including reduced libido and eventually sterility if taken long enough. You can't pick and mixed which effects you want and don't want, they come as a package deal.

If you really just want female breast and nothing else, implants.
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ffern

um the bumf for the one i was pondering says it isnt a herbal one, its um "coagulated Oestrogen supported by progesterone" http://www.transformation.co.uk/en/shopping?page=shop.product_details&product_id=1&category_id=100&flypage=flypage.tpl and and its from the website of a trans shop near me.  not that im dissagreeing with you guys, all the information from actually people seem to say that topical cream thingies dont work.  anyway i was just looking to less drastic options than surgery and HRT to pass a little more easily and make me feel better about what i see in the mirror and stuff
"I decided that I was a lemon for a couple of weeks. I kept myself amused all that time jumping in and out of a gin and tonic."
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Janet_Girl

there are many sites that advertise all kinds of stuff.  Most do not work, and the ones that do do something are meant post-menopause women.  They may relieve the symptoms of menopause but they will not help a transwoman.

Seek out a doctor and begin true HRT under a doctor guidance.
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shelly

Arrrrrrrrggggggghhhhhhhh, sorry but i have just chucked in a couple of websites to get away form dealing with herbs and lotions and potions and whever or not they actually work, because to tell you the truth one of them im particular (breast nexus) was becoming a bit like an asylum, you either became a clone and walked the same way as everyone else or you got treated like a lepper and for some one like me who actually took prescribed hormones for 6 months, hearing what some of these plant hormones could do, well i ent heard so much BS! in all my life.

Despite the fact that i am taking 3 PM a day, i do feel all this NBE stuff to be a bit far fetched, i even saw my own GP before going on PM and was told that i was wasting my time due to the dose that would be needed, even if the stuff worked in the first place. Think a lot of it is mind over matter, for instance you get a headache, you take paracetamol which makes the it go away or does your mind just think "oh ive just taken a tablet so now my headache is gonna go" i can back this up with tests on patients using placebos. So someone taking some kind of NBE thinks their boobs must be getting bigger cos they are using products that will make this happen?? I am taking PM for no other reason than to proove to my wife that i am wasting my time trying to get boobs by going down this route, even though after taking these pills for about 6 weeks my wife has mentioned that my bust has got a bit bigger, however i also put on half a stonne in weight over the crimbo period which probably has more to do with boob growth than anything else.
If you must Ffern  check out one of the NBE websites and do a bit of your own research.
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shelly

OMG!! just noticed your link Ffern is for the transformation products,who in my opinion are rip off merchants who prey on trans folk who are very much in the closet and too scared to shop around. I had a ->-bleeped-<- makeover by them many years ago and well they just made me look like a pantomime dame, so much so in fact that when i asked if anyone had seen my hand bag, 8 people shouted out "its behind you" before i left i asked if they had anything that would make me more girly? they put a carrier bag over my head and said "that will be £40" Yeah ok i am having a laugh, but trust me Ffern when i say stay well clear of Transformation!
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Keroppi

Oh those. Yeah, those I don't think is herbal. More along the line of designing and labelling a product in such a way that they can sell without prescription. The problem with that is of course means no dosage information. Single strength and double strength don't mean an awful lot technically.

ffern, they have been around for years and have multiple shops in the country so there's obviously a profitable customer base, but you do know most of what they sell is a complete rip off right? It is a one stop shop with clothing sizes targeted at average MTF size and proportion with a private changing service. I guess it's good if you don't want to shop around for most of the same product at a fraction of the prices.

Keroppi, (who was less than impressed visiting their actual shop after being initially taken in by their wonderful website, and who is writing carefully so she isn't going to get sued for libel.... :eusa_silenced:)
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shelly

Kerropi, you can only get sued if what you are saying is a lie!! I have not come across anyone who has got a good word to say about them. Being only 5"4 and having a size 6 shoe there is not one thing clothes wise i could of brought from their shop, mind you at their prices i glad they didnt have anything, did have a laugh though as while i was there a gentleman came in suited and booted as if he had just left the houses of parliament and asked for 3 king size nappies....the mind boggles!!!!

Ffern i did use a cream called Mirifem i think, for about 3 months and the only thing i felt was....like someone had stole £90 out of my wallet! have also used many other products for short periods, but with fenugreek i had a really bad reaction to it, a lump like rash covering most of my body and breathing problems, have not come across anyone else who has suffered the same effect, so guess i was just a one off. Although you can become infertile from taking hormones, i was on Premarin for 6 months, but after coming off them i went on to have 3 more kids (got 6 altogether)
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Keroppi

QuoteKerropi, you can only get sued if what you are saying is a lie!!
That's a great theory. ;)

Even if we modified the sentence to "you can only get sued sucessfully if what you are saying is a lie!!", it's still nothing more than a great theory in the UK. Ignoring the burden of proof, and who has to do the proofing in such a case in the UK, I particularly love the fact that even if the accused win, they can't actually win all their cost. So have fun giving a few hundred thousands to lawyers even if are shown not to have broken any laws, and that is assuming you can afford to defend yourself in the first place...

*shrug*
Now let's get back to the topic at hand. :)
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ffern

Thanks for all the information, figures it would be too good to be true. and yea, the prices for everything in there are rather scary.  I just sorta wanted to become more girly so i could pass as either.  I really like feeling like im a girl but there are days when i want to be in guy mode too, or some where in the middle. i mean it makes me stupidly happy when im dressed as a guy and someone mistakes me for a girl, even to correct themself shortly after.
"I decided that I was a lemon for a couple of weeks. I kept myself amused all that time jumping in and out of a gin and tonic."
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regan

Quote from: ffern on January 17, 2011, 10:32:01 AM
Thanks for all the information, figures it would be too good to be true. and yea, the prices for everything in there are rather scary.  I just sorta wanted to become more girly so i could pass as either.  I really like feeling like im a girl but there are days when i want to be in guy mode too, or some where in the middle. i mean it makes me stupidly happy when im dressed as a guy and someone mistakes me for a girl, even to correct themself shortly after.

Why not see a therapist then, at least it would open the chance to HRT?
Our biograhies are our own and we need to accept our own diversity without being ashamed that we're somehow not trans enough.
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shelly

Quote from: regan on January 17, 2011, 10:54:05 AM
Why not see a therapist then, at least it would open the chance to HRT?

Cos in this country it ent that easy, saw my GP a while ago and tried to explain to him how i felt about myself, he in turn sent me to see a shrink nurse who told me that i was not trans in any shape or form and all i needed was to go to anger management and have help with self esteem, hmmm wish i new that when i was 7 and in my bedroom wearing my sisters clothes!! Being Andro in this country is not recognised, you are either TS or there is some other reason why you feel you belong to both genders and normally nothing to do with being trans of any kind.

If you are like me then the risks of taking these "wonders boob herbs" dont come into consideration, getting boobs to me is a life changing procedure and i will take any risk in getting my goal, besides from what i can see taking prescribed hormones comes with risks. I dont believe in anything that has not been experienced by myself personally, so i believe you are more likely to grow leaves and flowers while taking plant hormones, but at the same time i have seen pictures of people who claim that all their growth has been down to taking these herbs (Sfem if your around please weigh in with your thoughts) so i live in the hope that my thoughts can be converted.
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chrishoney

Quote from: perlita85 on January 17, 2011, 10:08:11 AM
There a peer-review scientific studies that show that most of the herbs do not have enough estrogen-like esteroids to substantiate any claim. None of the herb suppliers have roduced a double blind experiemnt showing that their products grows anything. Just look at the EZ fiasco; and yes it is very dficlt even fr Goverment agencies to go ater the crook.

I am in an ancillary medical field (but not a physician), have done research with human subjects (so know how to read a study and understand the statistics and all that) and would love to know what peer-reviewed studies you are referring to, as I have not been able to find any. Likewise, as I explained, the only folks with enough monetary resources to do quality, double-blind studies are the universities or big pharma companies. Neither has any incentive to incur that considerable expense, since you can't patent a herb. So, you are right that none of the companies marketing herbs has done a study like that, but then neither has the medical establishment. A lack of evidence, either pro or con, is not the same as proof that it doesn't work.

I find it interesting that studies of pueraria mirifica (PM) done in Thailand by the medical establishment there, that DO support the claim of increased breast size in cis-gendered females are conveniently omitted from your blanket assertion that "There is no medical evidence that they work on anybody, period." In other studies, PM has been shown to have other beneficial effects (such as cancer inhibition) that might be useful to MTF trans-gendered folk, even if they have gone the HRT route.

I am not familiar with the "EZ fiasco"--please explain.

Quote from: perlita85 on January 17, 2011, 10:08:11 AM
More importnat is the fact that when you take an unregulated product, you do not what is on it, and it may cause great harm.
There are individuals with significant diabilites due to contaminats in herb formualtion. I have seen medical docuemnted cases of herbs contamianted with heavey metals(mercury and cadmium) that led to illness and even death.

I agree there are risks, but the risks are not just from taking herbs. Just look at the hundreds, perhaps thousands of recalls on commercially produced drugs and the injury and deaths caused by the same, and that's not including misprescribed meds. You can't pin that one just on herb producers. It's rampant throughout the drug industry in general. In aggregate, there are far fewer injuries and/or deaths from herbs than from poorly manufactured drugs and/or wrongly prescribed drugs, not to mention iatrogenic disease. Putting your life and health and well being in the hands of doctors and hospitals is extremely risky if you look at the statistics. That being said, I do not want anyone to think that I think doctors are not to be trusted or are not needed, it's just that most have no experience or knowledge of the effects of herbs and just parrot the standard line of big pharma that they don't work.

I am speaking from personal experience with respect to PM, and taking it for some 9 or 10 months HAS definitely affected my physical body as well as mental  outlook. I now have mild to moderate gynecomastia; I didn't before taking PM. Might I have developed it anyway since 60% of men have it at some point in their lives and I did not have it as a teen? We'll never know now, but it is possible. In all honesty, it is the unforeseen psychological changes that I appreciate the most: drastically reduced sex drive and feeling like I "need" to have sex or masturbate daily, much calmer, get angry less easily and less frequently, significantly reduced interest in porn (related to the "need" to masturbate for me), hardly ever cross dress now (aside from my everyday androgynous clothes that were purchased on the women's side of the aisle), and just generally feel much less dislike for my "male bits" as others have called them. In general, I would say my sense of gender dysphoria is so far reduced as to be almost gone; certainly it is WAY more manageable for me now while taking PM.

Shelly has been on PM for some time--why isn't she seeing the same kind of results? There is a wide range of what can be considered normal for any measurable human parameter, and her genetic predisposition may mean she lies on the not-so-sensitive-to-estrogen/phytoestrogen side of the normal distribution for that attribute. Or, she may be using a different brand (apparently whether it is cultivated or wild, and how it is harvested and preserved affect potency), or a different dosage, or she wasn't as willing to experiment on herself and take higher dosages as I have done in the past, or all of the above. Everyone is different. Every trans-female responds to HRT differently. As they say, your mileage may vary, but just because she saw less effect than desired, doesn't mean it doesn't work.

I do not intend to transition MTF. It just doesn't feel like the right choice for me at this point in my life; I don't have the pervasive feeling of being a woman trapped in a male body. I feel more like a woman and man in this body, which is becoming a little less male, but not fully a female. However, I don't mean to say that herbs could replace HRT for those who want to, or are fully transitioning, or have had GRS. But, they might be helpful in the interim until one has the necessary resources to undertake those options.

Now, I am playing the devil's advocate to some extent here, but my main intent is to say: that yes, some herbs DO have a feminizing effect (your mileage will vary), that they generally have much less dire side effects (at least as far as we know to date; and certainly there is risk involved) than standard HRT, and if reducing ones' feelings of gender dysphoria is a good thing, then certain herbs warrant further consideration.

Anyway that's long enough. Thanks for listening if you read this far.

Chrissy
I believe in nothing; everything is sacred.
I believe in everything; nothing is sacred. (The Chink, in "Even Cowgirls Get the Blues")
Embrace the chaos.
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shelly

Was not going to comment on this thread any more as basically fed up with discussing about herbs and breast growth, besides im sure Ffern has got the answer to his question and we seem to be swaying away from the thread now anyway. However when someone tries to prejudge my situation i like to respond so Chrissy ive currently been taking 3 500mg of PM for the last 6 weeks now and while agreeing this is way to early to say if something is or is not working, the leaflet that comes with this product states you can increase your bust size by up to a cup size in 3 months, so being halfway through i would be expecting to see or feel something by now, i have no decrease in libido or any aches or pains or tingling anywhere i do not feel as if "my brain is being rewired in to that of a woman" so i dont feel the need to go out and buy 50 pairs of shoes or spend 6 hours doing my hair!
Around the time of me giving up my regulated hormone treatment (6 months) i had noticable growth and things were just begining to bounce about when i ran or ran over a bump on my bicycle, so it would be plain to see that i am receptable to proper hormones so either i am not to PM or herbs just dont work!

I left Breast Nexus Chrissy cos i got fed up with all the bitching and the claims of what herbs could do and the reluctance for anyway to say "you know what, we could all just be wasting our time" it seemed to be getting like a cult, i left a thread on there saying about does anyone know the risks we are taking with these herbs and not one person replied, cos your not allowed to question if NBE works or not, you have to be a believer, which i have already said on here, im not. Despite everything though intend to carry on taking PM for the next 6 months just to finally put this NBE thing to bed, well as far as i go anyway.

Chrissy i hope you have taken the trouble to read some of my threads and will now realise that i am not a TS in denial any more than what i am a "she" or a "he"i have came up with a new word for myself which is a shim!!
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sfem

Seeing as how I was invited to weigh in on this thread, I will. :)

I am not interested in joining any debates about who is for real and who isn't. I do believe everyone responds differently to the things they put in their body. If that weren't true, I would be much heavier than my wife and I'm not. I have had what I consider to be a positive response to herbs, some more than others. I am not trying to transition, do not feel like I am a female (trapped or not), and have no interest in doing any of these things purely for their effect on the people around me as I know some people do. I have posted a number of times on this forum and others (breastnexus.com, cherylsbreasttalk.myfastforum.org, and a couple of others to a lesser extent) regarding the changes I have seen and I don't see repeating it ad-nauseum. In a thread on breastnexus.com discussing the effects people have or haven't experienced of caffeine, I posted the following. It also describes the effects I have seen from taking the herbs over time.

My experience is very similar to Chrishoney's. My measurements are slightly different, and I'm not sure I see any difference in my hair, but I'm not looking any difference there either. My wife tells me my skin is significantly softer, although I'm not sure I can tell. Weight gain and FG do seem to go together for me. But I also take it for digestive benefit, so I put up with that.  The PM (same brand and similar dosages to Chrishoney, although I have never exceeded 2000mg in a day) has been the thing that really made my boobs grow.

In the summer of 2009 I began with FG, SP, etc. In the year I was on that regimen, I noticed a difference in rounding and fullness on my chest, but not much difference with the tape measure (40" under, 41" at nips, 42" at armpits). I switched to PM with small quantities of FG in the summer of 2010. Big difference in shape and projection since then. Now measuring 37.5, 42, 41.5 and really should lose 25 lbs or so. Never did measure the hips or anything, but my wife tells me that my briefs look silly on me now and my panties are much better looking. During the first year and the first 4 months of PM I abstained from coffee and mostly from alcohol. I am back to my old coffee routine these days (4 cups/day) and see no difference in the pace of change in my body. I still don't drink much alcohol, but then I have been a light drinker since I got myself in trouble with it in my twenties. That was almost 30 years ago... :(

Enjoy your coffee is my advice.
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ffern

>.> just to let you know, I think im gunna probably try some of the pueraria mirifica stuff .. to see how it goes,  but i think im also going to talk to my psychologist/ciatrist ..shrinky type person (who im seeing for some other stuff) about my gender stuff and/or maybe get her to refer me to someone more specialised in gender stuff so yea like i said before (or if i didnt im saying it now) all your contributions have been appreciated :)
"I decided that I was a lemon for a couple of weeks. I kept myself amused all that time jumping in and out of a gin and tonic."
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