Friends,

       I have a question for discussion.  But first, the framework.  A good number of the trans-persons I know in as face to face friends are often very caught up in gender roles and often seem to conform to the standard as set by mainstream western society.

       For example, I am bit less frilly then many of the friends I have in person a more active and adventure seeking girl, confident and reliable and very committed to the ones I love while suspicious of thoughts around me (I had to cut this short ^_~).   One of my large concerns when I first went to go and seek help from a psychologist and psychiatrist was I would be doubted or denied care because I did not conform to the standard gender roles as set by society. 

        So the question, how many of the girls or guys for that matter on here break the mold a bit so to say.  How do you identify your attitude and personality, and how do you express them?  Also, of course there is absolutely nothing wrong with fitting the standard mold..it is the standard for a reason!

         Respectfully,
         -Violet

If you do things to "fit in a mold" it will come across as fake and I'm sure your therapist would catch and note it.

Be yourself.  Look around at all the people you see around you each day, do they dress the same, do their hair the same (you get the idea), NO.

While people might look at how you present yourself, the main issue for the therapist is who you see yourself as.  If you are transioning from MtF and walk into the therapists office in a three piece men's suit, it will create an impression in their mind.  If you walk in there in a party dress, it will create an impression too (probably not a good one).

Dress reasonably for your age and for who you are.

     Sarah,

      Oh I absolutely agree now, when I made the decision not to hide any longer and to start on this road I did not feel that way however.  Perhaps I have a poor sample or a small sample, but many of the people I know in person seem to over compensate quite a bit often to their determent.  And being yourself is absolutely correct. I raised these questions when I first started working with my therapist...(after thanking my therapist for not doubting me =p). 

As Sarah Louise says just be yourself. Do what makes you fee comfortable.

I over compensated in my old disguise... hell did I over compensate.

Now I am me I have changed a lot. My whole out look on life is so much more laid back.

My Style of driving has changed completely I used to drive quite aggressively and I used to concentrate on it a lot. Now I really dont care how fast I go or who goes past me. My only problem is I cannot park any more 

But it is just me being me now which makes me so happy..

Quote from: Violet_Camo on January 20, 2011, 09:18:35 AM
     Friends,

       I have a question for discussion.  But first, the framework.  A good number of the trans-persons I know in as face to face friends are often very caught up in gender roles and often seem to conform to the standard as set by mainstream western society.

       For example, I am bit less frilly then many of the friends I have in person a more active and adventure seeking girl, confident and reliable and very committed to the ones I love while suspicious of thoughts around me (I had to cut this short ^_~).   One of my large concerns when I first went to go and seek help from a psychologist and psychiatrist was I would be doubted or denied care because I did not conform to the standard gender roles as set by society. 

        So the question, how many of the girls or guys for that matter on here break the mold a bit so to say.  How do you identify your attitude and personality, and how do you express them?  Also, of course there is absolutely nothing wrong with fitting the standard mold..it is the standard for a reason!

         Respectfully,
         -Violet

Heh, your interpretation of them falling into gender norms seems to hint that you think they are trying to hard and not being themselves.  A lot of TS myself included dont really think about it, we just be ourselves, yet that might be being a normal average woman/man by society's standards.

I for example want a transitional house wife kind of life for myself, yet, i still do active things like surf, go to the gym, play airsoft, and geeky things like manga, anime, cosplay, video games, etc...   Hardly typical, but that is just how i am. 

It probably feels as natural to them as it does to you.

just know, there's no such thing as a "real man" or a "real woman" regardless of what society might tell us. everyone in some way "breaks" their gender roles somehow, but society sets that bar pretty high that it's well impossible for any of us to reach it.

Quote from: Violet_Camo on January 20, 2011, 09:18:35 AM
So the question, how many of the girls or guys for that matter on here break the mold a bit so to say.  How do you identify your attitude and personality, and how do you express them?

I find this to be an interesting topic.  As far as I can tell, most people I have associated with online perceive me to be male.  But when I am playing games, most other players perceive me to be female.  Apparently, my lack of interest in "PvP" modes and my desire to help others in co-op modes makes me female.  I find this ironic, as I am extremely aggressive in games where there is no cooperative modes.

Before playing games online, I was unaware that only men use curse language and challenge everyone they meet to see who has the bigger sword.  In fact, I find this unlikely.  But it is very clear that when I take an assertive position I am seen as male, and when I am in a caregiver role (particularly if I am playing a character designed for it, such as a healer) I am seen as female.

I have both masculine and feminine elements to my personality.  It depends on my mood.  But how I am perceived can clearly be predicted by gender role bias.

Quote from: VeryGnawty on January 20, 2011, 11:50:00 AM
I find this to be an interesting topic.  As far as I can tell, most people I have associated with online perceive me to be male.  But when I am playing games, most other players perceive me to be female.  Apparently, my lack of interest in "PvP" modes and my desire to help others in co-op modes makes me female.  I find this ironic, as I am extremely aggressive in games where there is no cooperative modes.

Before playing games online, I was unaware that only men use curse language and challenge everyone they meet to see who has the bigger sword.  In fact, I find this unlikely.  But it is very clear that when I take an assertive position I am seen as male, and when I am in a caregiver role (particularly if I am playing a character designed for it, such as a healer) I am seen as female.

I have both masculine and feminine elements to my personality.  It depends on my mood.  But how I am perceived can clearly be predicted by gender role bias.

that's why you wonder why it even matters whos male or whose female. it makes no sense sometimes, or even most of the time. why we have to be one or the other. from playing online games, you don't have to worry about physical cues, except maybe just voice, but even then, people still gender you.

There are no 'gender roles'.

I try to have the mold conform to me and not the other way around, is the best way to put it. I haven't found any terms that are nearly well-fitting enough to get the message across easily, aside from really broad and inclusive terms like "androgyne" or "genderfluid".

Personality-wise i'm very outgoing, friendly, and talkative. I'm a social butterfly, and pretty easygoing and warm as well. I don't get annoyed easily, and i'm fairly confident. Also, I'm the type that never sleeps because there's always *something* to do. Attitude and personality-wise I cross back and forth across the male/female divide depending on what exactly you're looking at.

Quote from: xxUltraModLadyxx on January 20, 2011, 12:00:07 PM
that's why you wonder why it even matters whos male or whose female. it makes no sense sometimes, or even most of the time. why we have to be one or the other. from playing online games, you don't have to worry about physical cues, except maybe just voice, but even then, people still gender you.

It's something that's so automatic in normal society that it's hard to entirely dismiss. One of the most basic things you learn about someone when you directly interact with them is their gender. Also, when you mentally picture someone that you don't know online, they probably take the shape of an amorphous blob. But even then, gender is going to be one of the first things people try to assign to that amorphous blob based on any cues they can find.

Hi Vexing

You said

Quote from: Vexing on January 20, 2011, 12:04:49 PM
There are no 'gender roles'.

There have always been Gender Roles and always will be, even though the Gender Roles can and will change.  Currently humans assign themselves a Gender Role, because the Gender Role is a term, which is associated with the social sciences and humanities to denote a set of behavioural patterns that accompany a gendered identity in a given social group or system.

Kind regards
Sarah B

Quote from: Sarah B on January 20, 2011, 04:46:38 PM
Hi Vexing

You said

There have always been Gender Roles and always will be, even though the Gender Roles can and will change.  Currently humans assign themselves a Gender Role, because the Gender Role is a term, which is associated with the social sciences and humanities to denote a set of behavioural patterns that accompany a gendered identity in a given social group or system.

Kind regards
Sarah B

No 'role' is inherently more male or more female. They are all gender neutral.
If you ascribe a gender to a role, you have done so in error, as roles cannot have a gender.

Hi Vexing

Quote from: Vexing on January 20, 2011, 04:50:12 PM
No 'role' is inherently more male or more female. They are all gender neutral.
If you ascribe a gender to a role, you have done so in error, as roles cannot have a gender.

A role can be inherently more male or inherently more female.  In societies that humans live in, they will  define what is a female role or a male role, whether it is written down or unspoken.  However, it is up to us individuals to accept or reject those rules as we see fit.

Kind regards
Sarah B

I have to say that I don't really believe in gender roles either.

Mostly, like everything else, they are tools of control, which one group of people try to use to manipulate the behaviour of a different group and as such I personally reject their validity.

In short they only exist if you allow them to. Personally I don't!

Oh - yeah - and to touch on the original point, I'm not particularly "frilly" either, but even in the 1970's I never compromised with my gender shrink. This process is supposed to be about being yourself. There is no point in swapping one ill fitting performance for another. So just be yourself and tell them that if they can't deal with it then that is their problem, not yours.

Quote from: Sarah B on January 20, 2011, 05:05:01 PM
A role can be inherently more male or inherently more female.

Wrong. You can ascribe femininity or masculinity to a role, but that doesn't actually make the role inherently male or female.

QuoteIn societies that humans live in, they will  define what is a female role or a male role, whether it is written down or unspoken.  However, it is up to us individuals to accept or reject those rules as we see fit.

What you're taking about here is culture and tradition. In one culture, it may be traditional for men to knit. In another culture, it is traditional for women to do the knitting. Therefore the acting of knitting has no inherent value as masculine or feminine. It is simply an action.
Roles are inherently genderless. The fact that all roles can be performed by either males or females proves this pemise. Women can weightlift, box, shoot guns, drink beer, like football, etc, etc. Therefore the 'gender' of a role is moot, as it is not restricted to one gender.

When I (and I'm guessing many other people) use the term 'gender role', I don't think we're talking about some inherent trait of a set of actions or behaviors that is independent of culture or environment. In terms of behavior, there are indeed gender roles since it's one of the most salient details to distinguish and group humans. I appreciate the idea of refusing to acknowledge gender roles, but they're not going to go away just because you refuse to believe them.

The fact is, there are certain behaviors associated with members of a certain biological sex, and they are colloquially known as 'gender roles'. Because biological sex is the the means with with certain behaviors are associated with.

Quote from: Nobuko on January 20, 2011, 06:14:33 PM
When I (and I'm guessing many other people) use the term 'gender role', I don't think we're talking about some inherent trait of a set of actions or behaviors that is independent of culture or environment.

Such as?

QuoteIn terms of behavior, there are indeed gender roles since it's one of the most salient details to distinguish and group humans.

And what are these roles?

QuoteThe fact is, there are certain behaviors associated with members of a certain biological sex

Which still does not mean that the role itself is gendered in any way. Because a behaviour is associated with males, does not make it a 'male' behaviour. Correlation does not indicate cause - otherwise it is irrefutable that pirates cause global warming.

I never really felt/knew of/adhered to gender roles until I came out as trans. Then I was pressed (mostly by the trans community) to be MOAR MANLY. Still not sure what that means.

Quote from: Vexing on January 20, 2011, 06:31:15 PM
Such as?

There is no such as. There are no inherent actions or behaviors in biological sex, at least to my belief.

Quote
And what are these roles?

The social and behavioral norms considered 'appropriate' to people of a certain biological sex. Do I really need to explain this further? >_o

Quote
Which still does not mean that the role itself is gendered in any way. Because a behaviour is associated with males, does not make it a 'male' behaviour. Correlation does not indicate cause - otherwise it is irrefutable that pirates cause global warming.

What does this even mean? Where do I ever imply causation? You're taking definitions, redefining them, and then projecting them onto others. If you don't want to associate "behavior associated with males" and "male behavior" as being the same thing, then fair enough. But this seems more like disagreeing for the sake of disagreement as opposed to meaningful conversation, especially when you're throwing out strawmans like the 'pirates cause global warming' bit.

tl;dr: Your definition of gender role and the general definition of gender role are different, so arguing this is a moot point. What term do you use to refer to the social and behavioral norms associated with a person's biological sex anyway?

Quote from: Nobuko on January 20, 2011, 06:53:10 PM
There is no such as. There are no inherent actions or behaviors in biological sex, at least to my belief.

Excellent, then we are in total agreement