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Gender Roles

Started by Jessica B, January 20, 2011, 09:18:35 AM

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VeryGnawty

Quote from: Rebekah with a K-A-H on January 22, 2011, 01:49:25 AMHowever, I think there are sexually differentiated behaviors that generally align with biological sex.

Humans are different than other animals, though.  We are smart enough to realize that we don't have to be the caregiver just because we are female.  We are also smart enough (presumably) to know that males don't have to bonk each other on the head with sticks to impress females.

Unfortunately, our intelligence hasn't really changed the way everyone behaves in practice.
"The cake is a lie."
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CaitJ

Quote from: Rebekah with a K-A-H on January 22, 2011, 01:49:25 AM
For example, chimpanzee boys will often tangle with each other and fight with sticks, while the girls frequently carry sticks and treat them like dolls or babies. These aren't products of social construction, obviously.
Actually, they are. Chimps learn the stick carrying behaviour from other chimps - in tribes where there are no stick carriers, none of them develop the behaviour.
(Note: some male chimps also demonstrate stick carrying/doll behaviour, but grow out of it)

QuoteIn the same way, humans have some behaviors which are innate and differ between boys and girls.
Such as?

QuoteThis isn't to say that the behaviors are absolutely differentiated, perfectly, all the time, but to say that zero human behaviors are innately male or female seems misleading, at least.
I don't think so. Prove to me that behaviours are hard wired from birth and I'll accept your premise.
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Rebekah with a K-A-H

I hate to make the primitive human society argument, because it sounds sexist, and, well, kind of is sexist, but there's a reason that the robust member of the human species was the one that went hunting and the gracile one stayed home with the kids in every primitive culture I'm aware of. Considering the fact that these societies organically grew apart from each other, it's not just because they all learned it fromeach other.

Sexual dimorphism can and does affect animal psychology. A similar study to the chimp one followed a group of baby rhesus monkeys (a primate which I don't think is a big tool-user, though I'm not too familiar with them) and gave them wheeled toys and plushies. Predictably enough, the boys sought the trucks and the girls sought the plushes.

I don't really even like the argument I'm making, but I think there's more validity to it than you give it credit for.  Humans aren't tabulae rasae when they're born.
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CaitJ

Quote from: Rebekah with a K-A-H on January 22, 2011, 02:15:30 AM
I hate to make the primitive human society argument, because it sounds sexist, and, well, kind of is sexist, but there's a reason that the robust member of the human species was the one that went hunting and the gracile one stayed home with the kids in every primitive culture I'm aware of. Considering the fact that these societies organically grew apart from each other, it's not just because they all learned it fromeach other.

Sexual dimorphism can and does affect animal psychology. A similar study to the chimp one followed a group of baby rhesus monkeys (a primate which I don't think is a big tool-user, though I'm not too familiar with them) and gave them wheeled toys and plushies. Predictably enough, the boys sought the trucks and the girls sought the plushes.

I don't really even like the argument I'm making, but I think there's more validity to it than you give it credit for.  Humans aren't tabulae rasae when they're born.

Humans are not chimps. Humans are not rhesus monkeys.
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Rebekah with a K-A-H

Quote from: Vexing on January 22, 2011, 02:21:46 AM
Humans are not chimps. Humans are not rhesus monkeys.

They are primates, though. We're in the same tribe as our good friends Pan paniscus.
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CaitJ

Quote from: Rebekah with a K-A-H on January 22, 2011, 02:32:40 AM
They are primates, though. We're in the same tribe as our good friends Pan paniscus.

Yes, but we're typing on computers and they're carrying sticks and throwing feces at each other.
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justmeinoz

Vexing, being a Kiwi has obviously never been to a Collingwood vs Carlton  AFL match!  ;D

There are roles in every society which are generally accepted , within that society, as being appropriate for men or women though.
For example,  until relatively recently a female plumber was unheard of, yet now is accepted to a greater or lesser degree in most Western nations.

If we keep in mind the cultural setting when discussing this subject we will perhaps achieve a better understanding of what was originally intended.
"Don't ask me, it was on fire when I lay down on it"
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VeryGnawty

Quote from: Rebekah with a K-A-H on January 22, 2011, 02:15:30 AM
I hate to make the primitive human society argument

I hate to bust the primitive human society argument, as I am a naturalist.  But I feel the need to point out that modern societies are not primitive.  The vast majority of biological advantages for gender roles no longer apply.  For the most part, females are just as capable as being the "breadwinner" as males are at taking care of the kids.  Breastfeeding is no longer the sole resource for young babies, and any advantage that the male might have had to fulfill his role no longer applies.

If we lived in a hunter/gatherer society, then I would agree 100% that females need to stay at the house and take care of the kids.  But I (and presumably, you) do not live in a hunterer/gather society.
"The cake is a lie."
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Jessica B

       My original question(s) and to BLUF it (bottom line up front =P) was first, to ask how each of you identifies in and as a member social construct.  Also to wonder just how many of you conform to a very standard western gender role which parallels your gender identity?   Or what social micro-cosum you connect with.

       I've spent most of my life in the west, I've lived all over Europe, the U.S. and I've spent time in south America and central America.  I've visited a decent portion of the east, be it for work or play.  That along with an education have afforded me a decent understanding of at social theory as it exists today. 

        Most of my experience with other TG individuals has been with another micro-cosum(s).  When I can I volunteer my talent and skills as a leader to non-profit conventions which are often fandom based.  With-in some of these other communities.  Granted this restricts my sample population from which to draw friends from and to see what other successful (in terms of the standards of living) TG individuals as many persons who attend or work at fandom based have a host of other personal and professional issues they may need to address. 

          I suppose I need to attend a gathering to get a better idea!  *ponders*

          But please...continue!  I'm loving this discussion

       
Respectfully,
-Jessica Baker
Twisted Ivy

"Without deviation from the norm, progress is not possible"
-Frank Zappa
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CaitJ

Quote from: perlita85 on January 22, 2011, 09:57:14 AM
My point is that this particular behavior or habit is completely a female one.

You obviously don't have many gay friends.
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Shang

I don't consciously act female or male.  I just do.   I can't be overly masculine because none of the behaviors that are said to be "masculine" in Western Society really appeal to me...I kind of like dressing up and doing my nails and not getting dirty (etc, etc, etc.)  But I like to play "manly" sports...as long as I can take a shower straight away. I'm not going into a job that is male-dominated, either, but I can't be certain on that because I really don't know how many men are high school history teachers and how many women do the same job.

Anyway, I pretty much do what I want, society views be damned. (At least, things that won't get me in trouble with the law.)
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VeryGnawty

Quote from: LukasGabriel on January 22, 2011, 01:59:35 PM
I kind of like dressing up and doing my nails and not getting dirty (etc, etc, etc.)

But life is only FUN if you are getting dirty.  You've got to explore, hunt for fossils, get off the trail, trip over a treelimb, and climb over boulders.

If people didn't consider me to be a boy, I would be such a tomboy.
"The cake is a lie."
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Sarah B

Hi Vexing

Quote from: Vexing on January 22, 2011, 02:02:04 AM
Such as?
I don't think so. Prove to me that behaviours are hard wired from birth and I'll accept your premise.

Babinski Reflex, sexual attraction, sleeping, face perception, language acquisitions, "fight or flight".

Just a few of the many that all humans share from birth.

Kind regards
Sarah B
Be who you want to be.
Sarah's Story
Feb 1989 Living my life as Sarah.
Feb 1989 Legally changed my name.
Mar 1989 Started hormones.
May 1990 Three surgery letters.
Feb 1991 Surgery.
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Jessica B

    VeryGnawty,

     My GSD and I absolutely agree with you, we love going on 3 day back packing trips ^_~ a ruck sack for me and him and a map and a compass.  Then we just explore!  It is soooo nice to get away from everything.  Path finding and backpacking are very relaxing or exciting depending on the route you pick elect!  But not everyone loves to explore.

      :icon_sad: Now I miss my GSD!
Respectfully,
-Jessica Baker
Twisted Ivy

"Without deviation from the norm, progress is not possible"
-Frank Zappa
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Shang

Quote from: VeryGnawty on January 22, 2011, 02:04:46 PM
But life is only FUN if you are getting dirty.  You've got to explore, hunt for fossils, get off the trail, trip over a treelimb, and climb over boulders.

If people didn't consider me to be a boy, I would be such a tomboy.

I've physical issues that prevent from doing much exploring or climbing....and then I don't like to get dirty, unless it involves looking for fossils.  I would love to be an archaeologist one day, but other than that, no dirt please. XD
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VeryGnawty

Quote from: LukasGabriel on January 22, 2011, 03:04:52 PM
I would love to be an archaeologist one day, but other than that, no dirt please. XD

Looking for fossils is extremely dirty.  Most of them are buried.

Quote from: Violet_CamoMy GSD and I absolutely agree with you, we love going on 3 day back packing trips

Yeah!  Backpacks are great.  You can carry hand shovels (for hunting fossils), digital cameras, sleeping bags (for camping on the mountain), trail mix, and a harmonica.  I don't actually know how to play a harmonica, of course.  It's for scaring off dangerous animals.

The other thing I always thought would be fun is hunting for meteorites.  But I don't have a metal detector.
"The cake is a lie."
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Shang

Quote from: VeryGnawty on January 22, 2011, 03:23:58 PM
Looking for fossils is extremely dirty.  Most of them are buried.


Oh, I know that.  I love fossil digging and stuff like that. It's really weird because I love to do that and go camping, but I don't like getting dirty.  >> I guess my love of history is too much to deter me from getting dirty.
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CaitJ

Quote from: Sarah B on January 22, 2011, 02:48:10 PM
Babinski Reflex
This is the only relevant point.
Fight or flight isn't strongly gendered.
Sexual attraction has nothing to do with gender identity (I can't believe you're claiming that on a site like this) and sleeping, face perception and language acquisitions come from socialised behaviour. From the moment of birth we are hit with gender socialisation, which skews all gender testing.
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Sarah B

Hi Vexing

Show me where I said "sexual attraction has anything to do with gender indentity".

Secondly,  prove that sexual attraction, sleeping, face perception, language acquisitions, or "fight or flight are not innate in humans.

This really boils down to the old argument nature vs nuture.

Kind regards
Sarah B
Be who you want to be.
Sarah's Story
Feb 1989 Living my life as Sarah.
Feb 1989 Legally changed my name.
Mar 1989 Started hormones.
May 1990 Three surgery letters.
Feb 1991 Surgery.
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Rock_chick

I think both Cait and Sarah are right, but Cait is arguing from a biological point of view and Sarah from a cultural point of view. Certainly from a cultural point of view, certain behaviours are hardwired into the dominant cultural discourse especially once they obtain the status of being myth (i'm talking about Roland Barthes' concept of myth where a social ordering renders a statement of fact as 'natural', therefore making it incontrovertible). Yes, these behaviours and the gendering associated with them are inherently constructed, but within the framework of society, their status as myth means they are viewed as inherently gendered. Obviously with all things cultural these behaviours can and do change (society is fluid after all), the best example i can think of being dressing babies in blue or pink to denote gender, that shifted some time around the late victorian times from pink would be used to denote maleness in a baby, to it denoting femaleness in a baby (I'll try and get a citation for that). So yes, gender roles do exist, they are part of the language of control used by society to order things, even though they are not inherently biological traits.

As to the original question I don't think i overdo things in terms of trying to play a role, though i'm sure others would disagree with me, I largely like the same things i did pre transition and I certainly don't think i'm deliberately playing a role to validate my identity as female.
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