I think the gays have more problems with MTFs than FTMs thats for sure.. they probably hate the idea we don't have a penis anymore.. I have noticed they liked non ops and even pre ops way better than post ops MTF

to tell you the turth i used to dislike gay people that was before i found out i was Transsexual cuz it just hit me one day like when you where trying to fit in and your mind goes into lockdown but you can still remmer what you are i thankful for this site it show me what i turey was sorry for going off topic for a bit but the reason i disliked gay people was before i was scared of acting deffent from my firends. no im kind of scared of people xD anyhow what i am trying to say is gays dont hate us they just dont understand that we are no one person we are not some fad we are all diffent i did not think gays where people sign im not good at explaining my self T_T i was bullyed once when i was younger someone was calling me a sissy and all beacuse of how i acted and they tought i might be lesser then them anyhow at that time i felt if i was be treated and when we are kids we dont think for otherselfs like in a gay bar they all know eachother and say a few of them are very opan about hateing MTF's then the others migth belive that it is the right for to do they are mostly miss infomartion most gay people are allright if you talk about your views and their... sorry if i am wrong i just know how humans acted i love/hate them all ^_^ as a race* like cats and dogs! or sheep? * but i love them as people kind of hard to unstand if i am being to closed mind plz tell me.

i speak from my mind its not really planed out im kind of a cowrd when it comes to these things i allso forgot i am sorry if i hurt anyones feels with this posts.

In my personal experience... Some gays have been nice and don't take issue with trans people...

But also some have been even meaner than straight people...

I totally get where everyone is coming from. In some places where drag shows are well-publicized in the gay community (like Nashville), transsexuals seem to be a lot more accepted. However, I've been places with a very strong, proud gay community where transsexuals were treated much like you experienced in that club. I've seen GLBT discussion boards where people argued that transsexuals were just confused and couldn't admit they were gay.

I think it breaks down to overall ignorance of who we are and what we're going through. Of the GLBT community, we're the only letter that doesn't specifically deal with sexuality. By changing our biological gender, we're messing with something that is ingrained into our psyche by society from the day that we're born. That is something that most people will never personally challenge about themselves. So, when we do challenge it, the enigmatic puzzle of the "why?" is inconceivable to someone who hasn't had those desires.

Quote from: n00bsWithBoobs on January 24, 2011, 10:35:11 PM
I totally get where everyone is coming from. In some places where drag shows are well-publicized in the gay community (like Nashville), transsexuals seem to be a lot more accepted. However, I've been places with a very strong, proud gay community where transsexuals were treated much like you experienced in that club. I've seen GLBT discussion boards where people argued that transsexuals were just confused and couldn't admit they were gay.

I think it breaks down to overall ignorance of who we are and what we're going through. Of the GLBT community, we're the only letter that doesn't specifically deal with sexuality. By changing our biological gender, we're messing with something that is ingrained into our psyche by society from the day that we're born. That is something that most people will never personally challenge about themselves. So, when we do challenge it, the enigmatic puzzle of the "why?" is inconceivable to someone who hasn't had those desires.

That was very inspiring to read, thanks.

I think there re a lot of issues between gay and lesbian people and 'TG" the common denominator is rejection by mainstream straights, but that is about it. We are talking chalk and cheese.
I'm very happy mixing with gay, lesbian, straight and anyone else in between or whatever. But others aren't. I know lesbians who totally hate gay guys and vis versa. I was kissed and hugged by a gay guy my first time out, when I was trembling like a jelly. He said kind words. A true Gentleman. I go out often with a lesbian lady whose partner doesn't like me, but we get over it.

I think sometimes we think the melting pot will bring everyone together.

No it won't.

I also think that is why places like this are so fantastic, yes, we have problems but we are a melting pot of similar thinking people.


Tolerance, such a simple concept. Such a difficult application.

Cindy

Quote from: CindyJames on January 25, 2011, 03:19:18 AM
Tolerance, such a simple concept. Such a difficult application.

Ain't that the truth!

I think we often find an opposite attractive, but we are repelled by something that we see as a subtle variation.

In other words something A LOT different is coded as entirely "other" and good... but something A LITTLE different is coded as deviant and a threat.

So a gay man might have a problem if he perceived an MtF as still being male and identifies with that person, and sees others treating her as female. The gay male wants to be seen a MALE and thus might worry that someone outside looking at him will assume that he also is female. So it is important to him the everyone KNOWS that this "person" is a MALE. There must be no confusion at the edges. Once male always male, then there can be no danger of someone questioning his own sex.

We all have things which trigger our insecurities about ourselves. For years my slight problem area was ->-bleeped-<-s - because I recognised something of myself in them yet at the same time they were different enough from me to make me feel VERY uncomfortable around them in case some ignorant person confused me with them. Those feeling of discomfort could, if I didn't be careful, become hostility if I felt that someone was incorrectly trying to tell me that that the two groups were in fact exactly the same! We're not, there are important differences.

That is not a criticism of ->-bleeped-<-s by the way, they have as much right to enjoy their lives as anyone. I work very hard not to let my feelings of uncomfortableness translate into any prejudice or hostility, but because I recognise that discomfort in myself I can at least understand how someone else could have the same feeling of unease about me.

When it comes down to it we all have our insecurities. Best thing is not to take it personally.

Well spoken Jenny.

I have many Gay and Lesbian friends. One of my dearest friends is Gay, flaming Gay, and is drop dead gorgeous and I have often joked "If you ever want to switch sides ...."  to which he replied "Not a chance! I am TOTALLY Gay and you are TOTALLY girl so it ain't gonna happen!"

As Jenny stated, we (transsexual) are different and grouping us with sexual orientations and fetishes is NOT going to help. Gays and Lesbians are no different than straight people when it comes to their link between their genitals and their brain, a link they feel is natural and immutable. But to accept us, they have to acknowledge that the "link" isn't as secure as they believed. That is a tall order for anyone.

I think ignorance is a big factor here and that the solution is not to throw a hissy fit and yell and scream or split away, but to calmly talk and educate and share and such.

The local queer group (I'm just going to use that now, cause we use "hinsegin" which means "the other kind" but is often translated as queer and just refers to "not a heterosexual and cisgender person") is very open to information and we educate each other, talk about our differences, and so on.
I don't know what came first, talking or being open, the two support and encourage one another.

Quote from: KillBelle on January 24, 2011, 01:56:57 PM
1. (Some) Gays REALLY dislike trans women

I probably wouldn't like them, so the feeling would be mutual.

I think that a lot of the problem stems from Blanchard and his demarcation of a particular group as "homosexual transsexuals."  Due in part to his research, a sizable public body considers transwomen attracted to men to simply be men who were unable to come to terms with being gay, and chose to masquerade as women.  An identifying gay man might respond with animosity for two reasons; the transwoman choosing not to "side" with the gay men is, in effect, hurting his side by reducing their influence, and relative accessibility.  The way beleagured minorities gain power is by standing together and showing strength, and he might interpret trans people as a detraction from the overall power of the group with whom he feels that they should identify. 

I think that the second reason is downright silly, but a gay ex-friend of mine has expressed this notion, and it deserves mention.  He tried to convey to me that he personally saw transwomen as being gay men who weren't in the closet out of fear of reprisal (which they would clearly receive in their displayed role,) but out of homophobia.  That is, transwomen weren't women who liked men, they were men who liked men and didn't believe in homosexuality. 

Quote from: long.897 on January 25, 2011, 07:49:18 AM
I think that a lot of the problem stems from Blanchard and his demarcation of a particular group as "homosexual transsexuals."  Due in part to his research, a sizable public body considers transwomen attracted to men to simply be men who were unable to come to terms with being gay, and chose to masquerade as women.  An identifying gay man might respond with animosity for two reasons; the transwoman choosing not to "side" with the gay men is, in effect, hurting his side by reducing their influence, and relative accessibility.  The way beleagured minorities gain power is by standing together and showing strength, and he might interpret trans people as a detraction from the overall power of the group with whom he feels that they should identify. 

I think that the second reason is downright silly, but a gay ex-friend of mine has expressed this notion, and it deserves mention.  He tried to convey to me that he personally saw transwomen as being gay men who weren't in the closet out of fear of reprisal (which they would clearly receive in their displayed role,) but out of homophobia.  That is, transwomen weren't women who liked men, they were men who liked men and didn't believe in homosexuality.

Many gay men are just jelous that a TS woman can get a straight man and they can't

Quote from: KillBelle on January 24, 2011, 02:21:24 PM
i meant we still face discrimination in the LGBT community sorry...i should have rephrased that! =]

Oh yes you are quite right about that.  The "T" is usually only on there for the appearance of a broader base of power.  But I personally think it is a sham.  Really, the acceptance of T people is, IMHO, about the same among the LGB community as it is among the general population.  They just don't understand this at all.  And they don't particularly care to.  Most think we are all drag queens or something.  I honestly get more acceptance from straight girlfriends.

Kristi

In regards to the original post, you do have to know that if you walk about in drag, and by drag I mean the exaggerated theatrical kind, even in San Francisco, expect some rubbernecking.  I have personally never had problems with the LGB scene.  There is some discrimination, not from inclusion in events, but more from the content.  I was in the LGBT (and however many more letters they've added since then) club in college.  The main thing I noticed was that there were almost no events related to trans issues. 

if you walk about in drag, and by drag I mean the exaggerated theatrical kind, even in San Francisco, expect some rubbernecking

Isn't that the point in the first place?

And, like other things, it's far from being a monolith.  So, this person agreed to go to to a gay bar with me here in Castro, yeah, fine, but which one?  One like Twin Peaks were older gay guys who have that musty "I'm going to die soon" grandpa smell on them, or a poseur leather bar (because the real leather bars are down in SOMA), one of those 'we only like very young, very thin gay men, and it helps to be white too' places?  A HOT mess- a whole 6'4, big hair, big attitude, at least 6 layers of makeup, 5 inch stilettos, tight clothes with her great breasts of wonder fighting its way out of her corset is going to make them sit up and notice you even at Aunt Charlie's or Divas, if it was some reserved, feel-like-I'm-fixin-to-die bar, I'm sure they resented the theatrical intrusion on their quietly drinking themselves to death scene.

I think a lot of the 'hate' is centered around the fact that there's a big lack of education when it comes to trans issues in the LGBQ community - similarly to how there's a lack of education when it comes to LGBQ issues in the heterosexual community.

Heck, there are gay people who don't like gay people! And even trans people who don't like gay people.

I do find that the younger generation (college-age and below) is much more accepting of Trans issues than the older generation (late-30s and above). My college group does a lot of Trans related programs and we've got several trans members - but the group downtown, which is made up of mostly middle-aged adults, actually shut down a reading group a few years back because they did not want to include Trans folks. Hopefully as younger people start growing up, things will change.

Quote from: n00bsWithBoobs on January 24, 2011, 10:35:11 PM
I've seen GLBT discussion boards where people argued that transsexuals were just confused and couldn't admit they were gay.

I've seen this line of thinking applied to bisexuals as well.

Quote from: tekla on January 25, 2011, 09:26:30 AM
And, like other things, it's far from being a monolith.  So, this person agreed to go to to a gay bar with me here in Castro, yeah, fine, but which one?  One like Twin Peaks were older gay guys who have that musty "I'm going to die soon" grandpa smell on them, or a poseur leather bar (because the real leather bars are down in SOMA), one of those 'we only like very young, very thin gay men, and it helps to be white too' places?  A HOT mess- a whole 6'4, big hair, big attitude, at least 6 layers of makeup, 5 inch stilettos, tight clothes with her great breasts of wonder fighting its way out of her corset is going to make them sit up and notice you even at Aunt Charlie's or Divas, if it was some reserved, feel-like-I'm-fixin-to-die bar, I'm sure they resented the theatrical intrusion on their quietly drinking themselves to death scene.

This is a great observation. Time and place definitely has an affect on un/acceptance.

Quote from: tekla on January 25, 2011, 09:26:30 AM
if you walk about in drag, and by drag I mean the exaggerated theatrical kind, even in San Francisco, expect some rubbernecking

Isn't that the point in the first place?

A HOT mess- a whole 6'4, big hair, big attitude, at least 6 layers of makeup, 5 inch stilettos, tight clothes with her great breasts of wonder fighting its way out of her corset is going to make them sit up and notice you even at Aunt Charlie's or Divas, if it was some reserved, feel-like-I'm-fixin-to-die bar, I'm sure they resented the theatrical intrusion on their quietly drinking themselves to death scene.

The description of the behavior of this individual leads me to believe that she wanted to find a place to be accepted. Let's consider some key points:
a) She entered alone
b) She seemed to have a big attitude
c) She wore tight, sexy, revealing clothing
d) She took a lot of time to put herself together
e) She left after a very short time because of how she was being treated
f) She had been taking hormones for awhile

From the above observations, I would be inclined to think that she went to a gay bar because she felt that of all the places she could go, that would be the one place where she might be accepted. She was dressed  to impress and wanted to show off her hard-earned assets. A woman doesn't necessarily show off her assets because she wants to be seen as a slut, but because she likes to feel desired. That boosts her self-esteem. The attitude could have just as easily been her attempt at showing confidence when she's really insecure about herself. It could also be a self-defense mechanism because she's experienced that kind of reaction to her before. Despite the attitude, she left shortly after being utterly humiliated. Had she really been a confident bitch-diva in heels, she would have stayed just to spite them all.

Maybe I'm completely wrong about this woman. She could have just been looking to stir things up. Maybe she chose the wrong venue or didn't know how else to get attention from men. It sounds like she lacked the common sense to understand her surroundings and how her community handles the transgendered. Regardless, I don't think it's right to treat people that way. Were it me in the original poster's place, I would have stuck up for the scorned woman because I can stand that kind of ignorant intolerance about as much as I can stand listening to Christian redneck Republican southerners preach to me. However, I understand not getting involved, too. I just find it overwhelmingly sad that those gay men felt it was their prerogative to treat another human being in such a manner. For shame, homosexuals!

All the bars in the Castro, and there are at least 10 that I can think of right off hand, are gay bars.

Sounds like the dress code is, come as you are. Just don't be flamboyant.
The old, when in Rome rule appears to have been broken.
Mix in the alcohol and that easily explains the reaction of the patrons of said bar.