This is one of the most interesting issues regarding trans romantic relationships to me.  I do believe in "different, but equal" amongst all human beings, but it depends on who each person is interacting with, and what their perspective is regarding the differences.  For a heterosexual female, a transguy could be considered to be "better" depending on what her priorities are.  If a woman loves sex with a well-endowed guy, a transguy might not be her cup of tea.  If a woman is more interested in the emotional side of the relationship, I think a transguy may be just what she's looking for.  I know that a guy can use something similar to a strap-on, but I think a woman would be concerned about his pleasure.  I've heard that there are devices where both get pleasure, but I'd like to learn more about it. 

It's interesting, because I've seen that some people wouldn't want to date another transperson, or rather, would prefer to date a non-transperson.  Something else to explore.

I think this is can be a very sensitive subject.

Quote from: sonopoly on January 27, 2011, 12:35:47 AM
If a woman is more interested in the emotional side of the relationship, I think a transguy may be just what she's looking for.

That's really invalidating.
It's like saying that if a man likes trucks, football and beer, he's better off with a trans woman.
If someone said that about trans women, they would be utterly crucified.
Just...ugh. Why do people get away with saying this ->-bleeped-<-?

P.S. my trans guy buddy is over for dinner and I can't actually type much of what he said about this without being banned, except the part about trans guy penis size being mentioned and him saying in response "you will NEVER hear a trans guy criticising a trans woman about the size of her tits or her scrotum-vagina not being 'real'"

Quote from: ▼Ξ✖ on January 27, 2011, 12:46:00 AM
That's really invalidating.
It's like saying that if a man likes trucks, football and beer, he's better off with a trans woman.
If someone said that about trans women, they would be utterly crucified.
Just...ugh. Why do people get away with saying this ->-bleeped-<-?

P.S. my trans guy buddy is over for dinner and I can't actually type much of what he said about this without being banned, except the part about trans guy penis size being mentioned and him saying in response "you will NEVER hear a trans guy criticising a trans woman about the size of her tits or her scrotum-vagina not being 'real'"

I really agree! So sad. I looove my trans men friends

Maybe I stated that wrong.  It's hard to articulate this.  I guess what I am I trying to say is that if a person isn't as focused on the sexual/physical side of a romantic relationship, a transguy MAY be more appealing to her, as opposed to someone who is focused very much on the penis and perhaps, the size and feel of the penis.  Yes, it's very unfair, but I think it is based on reality.  I'm not saying that it's right that people feel this way, but it may be how they feel whether it's based on ignorance or not. But, to me, love conquers all, and if you truly love someone, you can accept everything about that person.

I think it's different for transwomen, because they can get surgery to simulate female genitalia.  From what I've heard it's as least as good as the genetic ones.

The physicality of sex is very important to many people.  Maybe because they aren't willing to explore the alternatives of what they're used to.

Britney, in a way, I think it's sad, but in another, I don't, because you only need one person (or at least most people do), and I think everybody can find that person.  I know so many non-trans people who are single and lonely, and they kind of take it for granted that they will find someone (or they used to).  I've seen a lot of transgendered people who have wonderful relationships.

Quote from: sonopoly on January 27, 2011, 01:00:48 AM
Maybe I stated that wrong.  It's hard to articulate this.  I guess what I am I trying to say is that if a person isn't as focused on the sexual/physical side of a romantic relationship, a transguy MAY be more appealing to her, as opposed to someone who is focused very much on the penis and perhaps, the size and feel of the penis.  Yes, it's very unfair, but I think it is based on reality.  I'm not saying that it's right that people feel this way, but it may be how they feel whether it's based on ignorance or not. But, to me, love conquers all, and if you truly love someone, you can accept everything about that person.

Just...stop. Please stop.

QuoteI think it's different for transwomen, because they can get surgery to simulate female genitalia.  From what I've heard it's as least as good as the genetic ones.

Yeah, well trans guy hormones work way better and much faster, so it's okay to point out that a lot of trans women look and sound like hairy, fugly, men in dresses  - and never really get rid of those socialised masculine characteristics. I mean, who cares if her vagina works? She looks like a hairy bulldog in a ballgown - and no-one will see her vagina anyway unless they can get past how masculine and fugly she is.
Right?

I've noticed that the male hormones seem to work very well for FTMs to pass compared to the female hormones for MTF people, though when MTF people start early it seems comparable.

Well, I think if an MTF person looks very male, they may have a harder time attracting a heterosexual male.  I'm not saying this is right.  In a perfect world, we would all look at people for their inner beauty, but, well, unfortunately this is not the way things are.  I'm not even saying that I always see only everyone's "inner beauty" and that I am different or "better", but I don't think people do only see the inner beauty in everyone, in general.  Sad, but true.

I'm talking about what the general population may think, not what I think or feel.  I think what the general population may think or feel can be offensive.

Quote from: sonopoly on January 27, 2011, 01:22:11 AM
I'm talking about what the general population may think, not what I think or feel.  I think what the general population may think or feel can be offensive.

Wow, your cis privilege sure is showing here 
Why are you repeating everything we already know about cis perceptions of trans people? How is this helpful or supportive?

I don't consider it MY cis privilege, but you're right, there is a cis privilege.  Was this ever ever in doubt?

I don't support cis privilege, I thought I was trying to help.

I realize you don't want me here.  I saw that you mentioned something about how Jews couldn't be bigoted about Nazis, but you surely seem to be bigoted against non-transgendered people.

Quote from: sonopoly on January 27, 2011, 01:35:26 AM
I don't consider it MY cis privilege, but you're right, there is a cis privilege.  Was this ever ever in doubt?

Whether you want it or not, you have it.
You're also doing a fine job of demonstrating that it exists.

QuoteI don't support cis privilege, I thought I was trying to help.

How is pointing out the size of trans men penises and invalidating their identities helping at all?
You ARE supporting cis privilege. Please stop it.

QuoteI realize you don't want me here.  I saw that you mentioned something about how Jews couldn't be bigoted about Nazis, but you surely seem to be bigoted against non-transgendered people.

Pointing out your privilege isn't being bigoted towards you.
Unless I should feel sorry for you for being cis?

Exactly, I didn't ask for it any more than you asked for what you are dealing with being transgendered. 

I don't know if I'm demonstrating it.  If I am, I'm sorry.  I'm still learning.

I wasn't pointing trans men's penises in a negative way, or at least I wasn't trying to.  Again, I'm still learning and if I offended anyone I'm sorry, and it truly wasn't intentional.

You don't have to feel sorry for a group of people to be bigoted towards them.

Anyway, do we really need to go on with this?  I think we've exhausted it.  To use a cliche, let's just agree to disagree.  Maybe we'll adjust our opinions and thoughts at some later point.

Quote from: sonopoly on January 27, 2011, 01:48:39 AM
I'm still learning.

Lurk more.
Also, learn to accept that trans people's opinions on trans issues are more valid than yours, by virtue of you not being trans.
We don't really need cis people telling us 'realities' because we LIVE those realities and don't need them pointed out to us!!!
Next time a trans person asks you to listen, try following their suggestion instead of trying to defend your privileged statements. 

Quote from: ▼Ξ✖ on January 27, 2011, 02:09:03 AM
Lurk more.
Also, learn to accept that trans people's opinions on trans issues are more valid than yours, by virtue of you not being trans.
We don't really need cis people telling us 'realities' because we LIVE those realities and don't need them pointed out to us!!!
Next time a trans person asks you to listen, try following their suggestion instead of trying to defend your privileged statements. 

I'm sorry but I just have to take SERIOUS issue with all this cis bashing. Its just not acceptable by any stretch of the imagination under forum rules PERIOD!

This an inclusive place. We all have a POV and we all have the right to state it, but WE ABSOLUTELY DO NOT have the right to tell others to lurk and not post. This is not up for debate.  END OF ARGUMENT!

Post SRS I absolutely identify as CIS - pre SRS, while I identified as having an issue with my physical SEX I did not see it as a problem with my gender - which I percieved as already female. Thus I never saw myself as transgender but rather as a cisgendered transsexual. Now you may think I'm splitting hairs here but there is a serious point which is that it was my sex that I felt was "crossed" and NOT my gender.

So, rightly or wrongly, I have always considered myself as cisgender in one way or another. I know others may look at me and label me as something else but it is my life and I think they are WRONG! So simply I don't see the division between trans and cis as being as clear cut and binary as you clearly do. I do not own the transgender label now, and as I have had SRS - (as indeed have you Vex) - I also no longer own the Transsexual label. Thus if applied your logic I probably should not be posting, and neither should you be, since we have both had the cure and removed our transness.

Yes I know you can say that we have both had the experience of going through the process which someone who hasn't followed the path of transition has not, but even there experiences will very wildly. For example I have never had to face rejection by anyone. I have never had to face prejudice against me because of my history. So even there I am on a sticky wicket, but I hope I can still make useful contributions and be supportive.

The fact is that whether or not you like and trust cis people the forum rules and inclusive spirit mean that we are welcome and indeed encouraged to post. Further, though the perspective may be different from that of someone who has slogged their way through a lot of pain, it is no less valid.

So stop this now please, both here and in all the other threads where you are taking issue with cis posters.

Right now Jerica - sorry to have disrupted your thread further but that really needed saying.

Quote from: rejennyrated on January 27, 2011, 03:26:39 AM
I do not own the transgender label now, and as I have had SRS - (as indeed have you Vex) - I also no longer own the Transsexual label. Thus if applied your logic I probably should not be posting, and neither should you be, since we have both had the cure and removed our transness.

I still identify as trans, post SRS.

I think the real issue here is this: are you okay with the stuff that Sonopoly posted about trans guys?
Because, as I pointed out, if someone said the same things about trans women, I'd expect them to be banned or at least reprimanded severely.

Quote from: ▼Ξ✖ on January 27, 2011, 03:35:55 AM
I still identify as trans, post SRS.

I think the real issue here is this: are you okay with the stuff that Sonopoly posted about trans guys?
Because, as I pointed out, if someone said the same things about trans women, I'd expect them to be banned or at least reprimanded severely.

I think some of what was said was mistaken - but as it was expressed as an opinion and not an accusation or statement I really don't think that it would have led to a ban or reprimand. Instead someone would have, as you did, explained the nature of the problem. That early part of the dialogue was perfectly ok.

You only crossed the line when you started telling Sonopoly that because they were cis their POV could not or should not be stated, was somehow less valid, and that basically they should not post.

We can all only speak as we find. Sometimes we will be wrong, but isn't it better to find that out, than to stay silent and never test out our silently held opinions?

Now lets not disrupt the thread further - I am very happy to chat PM wise if you want, although as I am going offline now I may not reply until later on.

I will start this out with, Everyone is welcome as Susan's Transgendered or not.  It is expected that everyone follow the rules listed here https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,2.0.html.

Also that everyone use some common sense and realize that care is needed in how we respond, words used carelessly can hurt and anger others.  Everyone is not good with words, so when your writing posts think twice about what you say, and when your reading the posts give the writer the benefit of doubt, don't assume it is purposefully rude.  Something that sounds like an attack isn't always an attack and they are All Just the posters Opinion.

This thread is getting a bit heated and it is not necessary and will not be allowed to continue.  Disagreement is fine, but lets keep the disagreement friendly.

Sarah L.

I feel bad for the my CIS friends who have been more supportive of my goals in life than my friends from the LGBT community.  Yes, that includes trans ladies.

Honestly, Vexing, your words have been more hurtful on a few occasions.  Does that mean because you are transgender woman,  you get a free pass for being less than supportive of your trans sisters and brothers?  The truth of the matter is, no one holds a monopoly in terms of who has moral ascendancy.  Sonopoly obviously meant well, even though the words were not chosen more carefully.  And if I was told by someone that I can't have children (even if I wanted to) and/or my vagina is not deep enough for that well endowed porn star, should I take offense?  Not necessarily.

In the real world, not everyone we deal with are transgender.  Do we all need to go Calpernia Addams when well-meaning people ask us some questions?  Or when they make some mistakes in dealing with some trans-related issues?  (I don't agree with her Bad Questions video, but lemme not go on a tangent here)

I am sure I am not alone when I say that you could be more diplomatic in the way you respond to people given that this is a support group.  Not just to to your friends here, but also to the other members.

One member comes to mind, a young lady whose partner is about to transition.  She was put in a position that many people would not feel comfortable dealing with.  She didn't run away from the situation, but continues to give her unwavering support.  Is she not entitled to her opinions?  Is she not entitled to make mistakes without being attacked for having CIS privilege?

I've read a lot of your posts, Vexing.  And you seem like a very knowledgeable and articulate woman.  We are lucky to have a person like you on our side.  But there is a delicate line between opinionated and offensive.  Let's not cross that line.

Jerica, I hope that you find someone that'll make your heart skip a beat again.  He's also just wondering what took you so long to find your way into his arms, girl!   

Quote from: ▼Ξ✖ on January 27, 2011, 02:09:03 AM
Lurk more.
Also, learn to accept that trans people's opinions on trans issues are more valid than yours, by virtue of you not being trans.
We don't really need cis people telling us 'realities' because we LIVE those realities and don't need them pointed out to us!!!
Next time a trans person asks you to listen, try following their suggestion instead of trying to defend your privileged statements.

So how do we explain people like Dr. Bieber, Dr. Harry Benjamin, Dr. Suporn?  Or even the countless and nameless people who have done so much for our community of transgenders but are CIS-gendered? 

Quote from: AlexCallende on January 27, 2011, 11:01:28 AM
I am sure I am not alone when I say that you could be more diplomatic in the way you respond to people given that this is a support group. 

I wasn't aware that this was a cis support group at the expense of trans people.

Quote from: AlexCallende on January 27, 2011, 11:16:03 AM
So how do we explain people like Dr. Bieber, Dr. Harry Benjamin, Dr. Suporn?  Or even the countless and nameless people who have done so much for our community of transgenders gpeople but are CIS-gendered? 

They're examples of cis people who have listened.
And they still have cis privilege, whether you or they like it or not.