can anyone help me on the issue of "passing" in public, I am in despair, because I don't think I'll ever be able to even come close!, of course, then again in the last two days time, I've come a long way, maybe I'm rushing things, I JUST DON'T KNOW. HELP!!!!!

What have you done so far?  Give us some details so we know where to start.

Cindi

there are three main aspects to passing, voice, behavior and looks, is there a particular one you'd like advice on?

In my opinion the entire point of transition is nothing more than to dismantle our prior false presentation and just be ourselves.

As such, I feel it is generally best to stay within our comfort zone and be able to look someone in the eye and honestly tell them you are not doing a thing wrong. Now a lot of how I do things is based on how I see things granted, but I do not feel it a requirement to go out and try to pass 100% all of the time day#1. Ease in to that, I thinks.  We are, after all, leaving one closet, generally we do not wish to run straight on into another.


This said, somethings that are relevant in regards to 'passing':

• hair style
• pierced ears
• demeanor and mannerisms; this include one's walking stride and such. (otherwise known as to stop pretending to be a boy)
• voice
• speech pattern
• clothing style

This is certainly not an all inclusive list by the by.


Hopefully this will be of some help

Edit: Speeling hard, demur != demeanor

Quote from: Kimberly on January 12, 2007, 06:54:06 AM
This said, somethings that are relevant in regards to 'passing':

• hair style
• pierced ears
• demur and mannerisms; this include one's walking stride and such. (otherwise known as to stop pretending to be a boy)
• voice
• speech pattern
• clothing style

This is certainly not an all inclusive list by the by.

Just some comments...
I see speech pattern as being one aspect of the voice (and there are a lot of aspects).
You are right that mannerisms should come naturally.
Although I think pierced ears are optional, they do contribute to the overall appearance.

I like how Dennis put it into 3 categories, since no matter how you list it, it can always be grouped in those 3 categories.  Another one that may not quite fit under those 3 is "female vibe", which comes from an inner conviction that you are female.  I think this actually comes from the 3 categories, although mostly from your behavior.

Melissa

Confidence is also important never forget that.

Buffy

Quote from: Melissa on January 12, 2007, 08:16:25 AM...
Just some comments...
I see speech pattern as being one aspect of the voice (and there are a lot of aspects).
You are right that mannerisms should come naturally.
Although I think pierced ears are optional, they do contribute to the overall appearance.

I like how Dennis put it into 3 categories, since no matter how you list it, it can always be grouped in those 3 categories.  Another one that may not quite fit under those 3 is "female vibe", which comes from an inner conviction that you are female.  I think this actually comes from the 3 categories, although mostly from your behavior.

Melissa

Most things can be bundled up really tightly but I do not think that is of particular value in this case.

As Buffy mentioned Confidence is most definitely note worthy in and of itself and I should have mentioned it directly rather than just eluding to it, so bonus points for Buffy

In my opinion a "female vibe" is apart of one's demur, ... oh that is why, I went and speeled it all wrong, lol.  I meant demeanor, not demur, lol. Anyway I tend to think the "female vibe" falls under demeanor but I agree that it is important enough to mention separately. Bonus points for Melissa also

However, I tend to disagree about pierced ears as I do not recall any girl without her ears pierced. Which of course, just means that it is more normal to have at least one lobe piercing than not, at least in my experience.

The speech pattern itself, while it can certainly be included in just voice, does not necessarily require sounding different to pay attention to. ... As has been said before, women talk differently than men. Interestingly I find that for myself anyway that 'stop pretending' applies to this as well, go figure.

But regardless the smaller the pieces we can break down this mess into often the easier it is to get a grip on, In my opinion anyway.

Quote from: Kimberly on January 12, 2007, 10:59:53 AM
As Buffy mentioned Confidence is most definitely note worthy in and of itself and I should have mentioned it directly rather than just eluding to it, so bonus points for Buffy

I alluded to it as well and I felt that it was more something that leads to giving off a female vibe, which is why I didn't explicitly say it.

Quote from: Kimberly on January 12, 2007, 10:59:53 AM
However, I tend to disagree about pierced ears as I do not recall any girl without her ears pierced. Which of course, just means that it is more normal to have at least one lobe piercing than not, at least in my experience.

Oh, I know a few women who don't have any piercings.  In fact when I got my second piercings done, the girl who did it didn't have any, which I found ironic.

Quote from: Kimberly on January 12, 2007, 10:59:53 AM
The speech pattern itself, while it can certainly be included in just voice, does not necessarily require sounding different to pay attention to. ... As has been said before, women talk differently than men. Interestingly I find that for myself anyway that 'stop pretending' applies to this as well, go figure.

Perhaps you meant word choice, which I agree is different.

Melissa

Quote from: Melissa on January 12, 2007, 11:20:55 AM

Quote from: Kimberly on January 12, 2007, 10:59:53 AM
As Buffy mentioned Confidence is most definitely note worthy in and of itself and I should have mentioned it directly rather than just eluding to it, so bonus points for Buffy

I alluded to it as well and I felt that it was more something that leads to giving off a female vibe, which is why I didn't explicitly say it.

The problem I see with "female vibe" is that it is amorphous; That is to say, hard to define.

But regardless of the words chosen we agree that confidence is good

Quote from: Melissa on January 12, 2007, 11:20:55 AM

Quote from: Kimberly on January 12, 2007, 10:59:53 AM
The speech pattern itself, while it can certainly be included in just voice, does not necessarily require sounding different to pay attention to. ... As has been said before, women talk differently than men. Interestingly I find that for myself anyway that 'stop pretending' applies to this as well, go figure.

Perhaps you meant word choice, which I agree is different.

Technically I meant speech pattern. I seem to speak like a teenage girl, lol. This has nothing to do with the words I use by the by.

You do bring up a very good point in that the choice of words is different as well and is another worthy point to note, I think.

Thank you Melissa

Sounds good then.

Melissa

The 'passing' list

• hair style
• pierced ears
• demur and mannerisms; this include one's walking stride and such. (otherwise known as to stop pretending to be a boy)
• voice
• speech pattern
• clothing style

After checking over the list, I was really glad that I've been following it. I've had my ears pierced for 17 years, my hair style varies  (more due to what wig I'm wearing). My demur and mannerisms are kept quite feminine and some people get annoyed at me because they can't hear me when I speak, because sometimes I tend to speak in a soft hisper and my clothing style is always kept feminine.

Gina

thanks for all your help, I'm just getting started, so I guess that I have alot to work on!!!!

Creating a Feminine Carriage by Elaine Sagant will get you up to speed very quickly in walk and mannerisms, helping you unlearn all that stuff you learned just to 'fit in'.

Two very valuable tips I learned from the book (and there are many more,) are:  When walking, walk in a very narrow track -- as if you're walking on a narrow plank or raised kerb -- and keep your heels planted on the ground as long as possible, rather than unlocking the knee and rolling onto the ball of your foot.  This helps certain desirable 'wiggles' to happen, and;  When swinging the arms, turn them so the palms/wrists facce forward or a little farther out. This pulls your elbows in, moves your hands away from the body, and gives the illusion you have more hips and less waist than you really have.

These sorts of things feel phony at first, but you quickly become used to them.  AND, "Perception IS Reality", as we say in the spinmeister business.  That should help with the visuals.

Equally important is voice.  FIRST!: it's a 'character voice' you'll be using for the rest of your life -- think learning how to 'do' Bugs Bunny or one of the other voices created by the late, great Mel Blanc, and then using that voice for everything.  Some are able to pick their female voice up on their own, some after buying and practicing with a 'Female Voice' CD or two, some need time with a therapist.  But voice IS important.  Do what it takes to learn a female voice.  And remember, surgery is the last, final resort only after you've used a competent voice therapist with experience helping TG/TSs develop female voices.

I hope this gets you pointed in the right direction.  May the worst of your transition be over now and the road ahead be mostly sunny, clear and warm.

Karen

menge tak (thankyou) you have been very very helpful, as without your input, I would have nothing to go off of. (there are no local suport groups) once again, menge tak to all

Just to add to the list...

Susan's has a "How to" on how to walk like a woman.  It can be found in our Wiki at the following link:

https://www.susans.org/wiki/Walk_like_a_woman_%28How_to%29

Steph

Some other thoughts:

Go to the mall and sit somewhere - the food court, maybe.  Watch the women walk by.  Listen to them talk.  Watch how they LISTEN and talk ay other tables.  Check out their makeup.  (Probably little to none.)

See what they wear.  You won't see much in the way of dresses, skirts or heels anymore.  Observe women working in offices and stores, if you can.  Dress, mannerisms, talk.

You aren't going to wear a micro-mini and fishnets to the grocery store if you want to pass.  (Hopefully, you wouldn't consider wearing them anywhere.)

Robyn

Quote from: reikirobyn on January 13, 2007, 09:16:21 PM
Some other thoughts:

Go to the mall and sit somewhere - the food court, maybe.  Watch the women walk by.  Listen to them talk.  Watch how they LISTEN and talk ay other tables.  Check out their makeup.  (Probably little to none.)

See what they wear.  You won't see much in the way of dresses, skirts or heels anymore.  Observe women working in offices and stores, if you can.  Dress, mannerisms, talk.

You aren't going to wear a micro-mini and fishnets to the grocery store if you want to pass.  (Hopefully, you wouldn't consider wearing them anywhere.)

Robyn

I have to second this - looking and listening is one of the best ways to learn, just watch out you don't get caught for stalking

Steph