sometimes its pointless to think how or why we have GID or are androgynous, because the we are what we are ... looking for a cause or reason is just running away from the issue rather than dealing with it......

Quote from: rejennyrated on February 06, 2011, 06:07:44 AM
I however want to ask a more fundamental question which is does the cause really matter?

True!

And regardless of cause (or lack of it), everyone deserves equal rights!

People crossing genders and/or living in-between/outside them, have existed throughout history and in every culture.

Z

Yeah, and there are a lot of different ways to cross them, and a lot of different reasons why.  Some people are actively pushing at boundaries and envelopes, some are true crusaders, and there are always a bunch who never did know what they were doing or how it was 'violating' some cosmic rule because they never paid any attention to the rules in the first place and they didn't know where they were going, they were just really going and that was all that mattered to them.

Still don't know what I'm going for, but I'm going to go for it for sure.

Quote from: rejennyrated on February 06, 2011, 06:07:44 AM
The search for causes is a very human trait

I however want to ask a more fundamental question which is does the cause really matter?

In my experience people often look for causes for one of two reasons, either to justify something which should need no justification, or to oppose something, which it is equally futile to oppose. Either point of view is that of an idiot.

Thus most things do not actually need a "reason" to either support or oppose them. Many things just ARE.

Androgyny, for me, falls into that category.

So, as androgynes, we're "idiots" for having a simple curosity about what brought our condition to be? or am i misunderstanding what you wrote?

I would like to make it very clear, dysphoria doesn't care if you are andro or transsexual. Neither one is an indication of a more severe GD or particularly requires a more extensive treatment. My GD was quickly driving me insane or suicide until I began HRT. I know of at least one other frequent poster here who faced the same horror as me.

Quote from: rejennyrated on February 06, 2011, 06:07:44 AM
I however want to ask a more fundamental question which is does the cause really matter?

A few more reasons that have not yet been mentioned:
As a person with no plans to come out at large, "a cause," something to blame, has made all of this more pallatable to the cisgenders I have had to come out. It removes any doubt of this being a life style choice or perversion.

Looking at a slightly bigger picture than what affects me, there is no hope oif prevention or cure in the future without first understanding the cause.

Quote from: Virginia on February 06, 2011, 11:28:47 AM
I would like to make it very clear, dysphoria doesn't care if you are andro or transsexual. Neither one is an indication of a more severe GD or particularly requires a more extensive treatment. My GD was quickly driving me insane or suicide until I began HRT. I know of at least one other frequent poster here who faced the same horror as me.

Looking at a slightly bigger picture than what affects me, there is no hope oif prevention or cure in the future without first understanding the cause.

As someone who has been declared to have this/and/or that disorder over the years, it wasn't until recently that connecting the dots made any real sense. GD looks as it may have triggered many different disorders that may have not had to happen as they did.
Two, of several, suicide attempts resulted in being, in some medical respects, brought back from the dead. Horror seems like an understatement in a way, although I don't have a better term for it. I'm sure there are many more who feel the same way, everywhere. This is not a limited thing.

I'm looking forward to my HRT, I hope it helps. Nothing else seems to.

Prevention and/or cure of GD? For the sake of future generations, I hope it is soon.

What was the Topic and OP? 

Quote from: perlita85 on February 06, 2011, 04:57:55 PM
How many of you belivbe that tyou are who you are by choice? Rise your hand!

*raises hand halfway*

My gender, as well as my sexual orientation is (like most complex behaviours IMO) is caused by a combination of biological and environmental factors, with an element of free choice.  If I didn't have the courage to CHOOSE to look inside myself I would never have explored my sexuality or gender.

Quote from: riven1 on February 06, 2011, 11:20:30 AM
or am i misunderstanding what you wrote?

Of course you are! - do you really think I would say that? If you do you must have a terribly low opinion of me.

The point I am making is that what people are needs no apology or explanation to support it. It is everyone's right, to simply BE.

The people I am calling idiots are not those who have a genuine intellectual curiosity. I said in the very first sentence that I agreed with everything Perlita had already said.

What I am taking issue with is the fact that some people are not really interested in the science or anything like that. They just want a "reason" because they want to find some justification for either supporting or opposing something which to be honest should not need apologising for! People ARE what they ARE, and they have a perfect right to be so without having to justify and explain themselves.

If you want to enquire into something for reasons of genuine curiosity that is perfectly reasonable, but when it spills over into the need to effectively start apologising for what one is to others and justifying ones existence then it can become a form of subtle oppression.

Those are the people I am calling idiots, the ones who think that everything needs a reason before it can be allowed to exist. The ones, in short, who deny you your right to self identify because they do not care to acknowledge that androgyny exists, and their reasoning? "It can't exist, it must be all a delusion, because there is no prover cause!" - for cause substitute reason - and you can see my point.

Now come on - I have made about 2500 posts on this site all of them in what I hope has been a supportive manner. You don't really think that after that I am suddenly going to start attacking people do you?

Quote from: rejennyrated on February 07, 2011, 10:54:27 AM
Of course you are! - do you really think I would say that? If you do you must have a terribly low opinion of me.

..

Now come on - I have made about 2500 posts on this site all of them in what I hope has been a supportive manner. You don't really think that after that I am suddenly going to start attacking people do you?

Your original post contained these statements. I'll post what I thought about them immediately below each statement.

"I decided a long time ago that the quest for causes and reasons for everything was a colossal con trick".

This is a thread about the causes of androgyny. Androgynes should feel free to speculate here without being questioned. I read this as questioning what we are doing.

"In my experience people often look for causes for one of two reasons, either to justify something which should need no justification, or to oppose something, which it is equally futile to oppose. Either point of view is that of an idiot."

So i seem to have choice A or choice B, but either choice causes me to be labeled? Since this statement was included in this thread it must have a meaning and a purpose (and perhaps an application), or it wouldn't have been said.

"Thus most things do not actually need a "reason" to either support or oppose them. Many things just ARE."

"Androgyny, for me, falls into that category."

Dismissal of androgynes and their concerns?


And that's how I took your post. Given the recent sharp posts from another member, androgynes are on edge now, and defensive.

However, i'm glad you clarified your position. You've always seemed to be a reasonable person 

Quote from: riven1 on February 07, 2011, 11:26:24 AM
Given the recent sharp posts from another member, androgynes are on edge now, and defensive.

Now, now, now riven1....speak for yourself. I do  think of myself as an androgyne and didn't interpret jenny's post as you did.

Personally I greatly appreciated vexing's 'passionate' if insensitive posts, as she forces me to be clearer in my own thinking and feelings on those topics. And, the degree to which I felt anger at her is merely her reflecting back to me the very issues I need to continue to process/work on in myself. In that respect, she was/is a great teacher.

Speaking only for myself, I was sorry to see that thread locked by the moderators, though I understand why they did it and the reasons and grounds for taking such action. As unpleasant as it seems, the dialogue is beneficial for both sides, and sadly, based on the venom in her writing, I suspect vexing needs help with those very issues more than most who read them.

Far from feeling on edge and defensive, I  feel a debt of gratitude for the numerous, convergent and divergent opinions she stirred up, from some who might otherwise have remained lurkers were it not for her 'spirit'.

Just my 25 cents of course (inflation, don't-cha-know?!)

Quote from: chrishoney on February 07, 2011, 05:56:39 PM
Now, now, now riven1....speak for yourself. I do  think of myself as an androgyne and didn't interpret jenny's post as you did.

That's why i questioned jenny's post - i was unsure of what she meant. She responded and clarified, and i responded to explain what i was thinking and how i arrived at my misunderstanding. It's explained, over, done.

Sorry for presuming to speak for all of you here, but i'm pretty sure that several androgynes are feeling as i described.

I am on edge and defensive. The thread was locked. We each have our own opinions about it. Let it go, it's past it's due. I have since given CaitJ an applaud for a different topic, for my own reasons. I also recieved a nice PM from her for it, and a message that made me feel pretty good. Everyone has their day here, Good and Bad.
I'm still on edge and defensive. That thread shouldn't have gone as far as it did. I've apologized to who I felt apologies were due, I just know I left someone out. Let me know. The topic has been discussed most certainly in PMs.
I wish the point that I never seemed to make, was that it's easy for (here's that word again) non-binaries to be offended by some remarks and statements made by binaries. And it goes both ways. I started in that thread with a bad attitude and the intention of that being understood and did a horse sh*t job at it. And an even worse one that got it locked.

Looks like we may have lost someone who came here with a question and may have wanted to stay and become a part of the family of people who make up Susan's.

It's time to let how that topic turned out, go to were those things go. Let it rest, it needs it for now.

But, there is going to be some defensiveness and things may be edgy for awhile, when it wasn't necessary for it to get that far in the first place.

What was the OP's question again?

Ativan

Quote from: Pica Pica on February 05, 2011, 06:13:33 PM

Cause Androgyneness.

I thought that word was banned...but since it's been brought back: PEEPS!!!  (I apologize for any derailment)


I have wondered about myself.  I don't know if I am naturally androgyne or if my upbringing affected me in that way.  What I mean is that my parents really treated me more like a boy (the whole "walk it off," "no crying," playing sports thing usually associated with boys).  Well, I say that I wonder, but I'm sure I was born that way...I just don't know how much my upbringing exacerbated it.  I was cool until puberty, but then everyone else seemed to change.  It was kind of like they all had a handbook and I didn't get one.  It was very strange and surreal.

I think that I was fairly nongendered, but my family's influence over me may have increased my more masculine mannerisms.  I can be pretty darned manly. 


I do want to say something about looking for a cause.  I think it is perfectly natural and understandable for a person to wonder how they came to be who and what they are (whether that is a biological issue or a psychological one).  Accepting oneself and just "being" is something that comes with TIME and EXPERIENCE.  It seems to me that the OP is fairly young and in the beginning stages of their journey.  So instead of saying that the OP should just accept themselves and not worry about the cause, let's just give our best answers based on our experience/research and help the OP instead of dismissing their desire for answers.  Our best answer might be "I'm pretty sure it's biological, but I don't know and that's okay."  There's nothing wrong with that and at least that answers the OP's question.

I really want to emphasize that what we should be doing is encouraging each other on our journeys.  This is a JOURNEY and we all have to go through a lot of the same things to get to the point of acceptance without a definitive reason, so can we PLEASE just respond to OPs as best we can without questioning their inquiries or creating unproductive tangents?

Quote from: Alex201 on February 05, 2011, 05:50:10 PM
I fear if I were to get a brain scan my brain would come back as female.

Many of us search for something to "vindicate" our feelings.  I totally would expect a brain scan to show male for me.  However I feel as I feel and it is O.K.
................................................

I am not sure where I fit on the continuum.  Yesterday I was completing an electronic application that required me to pick Mr, Mrs, Ms, or Dr.  I could not submit the application without picking one.  I picked Dr so that the application could be submitted.

I would like to point out that all flavors of gender variance harm nobody.
(Considering the grief your parents are giving you, Alex, do remember that...)

So the importance placed on gender role adherence looks, from my perspective, like something both stupid, needless and cruel to those not comfortable in those roles.
If I grew a beard, who would it harm?

But I couldn't get a job, with my legal  female identity and chin scraggle, because I'd be punished for breaking the gender laws....and that's needlessly cruel.  People do it for no socially necessary reason, out of sheer bigotry.

I believe the quest to understand things can be a way of helping us to learn to accept things that we are not necessarily comfortable with or passive about. Understanding things about ourselves can help with self-acceptance. It can also help us to make decisions about changes we consider, so that we have a fighting chance at making good decisions for ourselves. I also think it is absolutely true that the quest for understanding should not be a quest to adapt our thinking to what others want us to think, or feel how others want us to feel. Those things should come from inside ourselves. The quest for knowledge is a very important tool in developing how we think and feel about ourselves and the rest of the world.

And I am glad they locked the other topic, I would have been happier if it had happened sooner. I rarely find any value in observing people fighting. One of my short-comings I suppose.

I know that studies have been done on homosexuality and older siblings.  Does anyone know if similar research has been done on transsexuality/androgyny?  I could imagine similar changes in hormone washing causing these effects.  I'll check around when I'm back from class later tonight.

Edit: Damn, now I want peeps 

Honey, take it from me, most of the smites are far more of a badge of honor for me then the thumbs up crap is.  The smite is pretty much saying a statement that 'they can't handle the truth."

Thank you for your offer, Perlita.
I would like to see a scientific peer-reviewed publication stating "androgyny, TS, TV, CD, are but forms of syndrome and medically classified as GID" as found in your first sentence.  Please post a link.

As for the rest of your post...
Is the American Psychiatric Association, NOT the "American Academy of Psychiatry" as you stated, that has the authority to change the name of GID.  The American Psychiatric Association is the publisher of the DSM, the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders.  The American Psychiatric Association is considering changing the name Gender Identity Disorder to Gender Incongruence, not to "GII (gender identity INCONGRUETY)" as you stated.
http://www.dsm5.org/ProposedRevisions/Pages/proposedrevision.aspx?rid=482

The change of name is NOT due to recognizing GID as a biological disorder.
http://www.dsm5.org/ProposedRevisions/Pages/proposedrevision.aspx?rid=482 Click on Rationale tab.
Many mental disorders listed in the DSM have been proven to be biological in origin.  GID may be of biological origin also... it is certainly thought be, but has not yet proven.  Check your facts.

It is the BSTc, not BST, that differentiates in adult men and women.  The size of the BSTc in the human brain does not sex differentiate until AFTER puberty.  All children, male and female, have similar size BSTc.  All embryos have the same size BSTc. The differentiation of the BSTc begins at puberty and continues through adulthood.  Check your facts.

The BSTc does not produce oxytocin or vasopresin.  Check your facts.

The number of nerve fibers in the BSTc is one of several notable differences between the average male brain and the average female brain.  The BSTc does NOT function as a 'center' for gender identity. No 'center of identity' has ever been discovered in the human brain nor is one expected to be found.  The BSTc is a bundle of transmitting nerve fibers - a neurological pathway -  not a repository of neurological information or gender identity.  Check your facts.

To the best of my knowledge, no brain research has been done on CD or TV individuals.  An extensive amount of research has and is being done with Transsexuals.  If you know of any scientific peer-reviewed publication on brain differences found in crossdressers, ->-bleeped-<-s or transvestic fetishists, I would be interested in reading them.  I'm open to any factual information in this area of study.  Please post a link or two.

And finally, none of this misinformation has anything to do with androgyny or what it means to be a psychologically androgynous person, to be an Androgyne.

The post, which I smited, is riddled with erroneous information presented as "a fact".  Your post failed to provide ANY reliable or accurate information, any facts at all.  In my opinion, it is the most horrendous conglomeration of factual errors and misinformation I've read in any single post on this forum.  I smited the post itself, not you as a person.  The 'information' in the post was presented as "fact" and it received a negative reputation point directly due to its gross inaccuracy and the presentation of falsehoods as factual reality.

-Emerald

My sisters were exposed to DES in the early 50's.  Before they were born my mother tells me that she was given DES for a miscarriage.  I was born in the middle of 1949 and my mother states she was confined to bed for a period while she was carrying me.  She has no idea if I was exposed to DES.

I have all the traits associated with Klienfelter XXY Syndrome.  Unfortunately the same traits are being associated  with DES sons.

I was diagnoised and treated for prostate cancer at the age of 50 which is  also traits of both of the above.

Now I have developed Epididymitis which has been linked to exposure of DES.

I would like to know if I have either or both conditions not just  to justify feeling androgyne but to deal with all the medical conditions I've developed and encountered as some are associated with traits of both of these conditions.