I need some advice. Preferably from someone who is religious, as I don't want to be too harsh. As the reality of my starting T inches forward, my girlfriend has been throwing the "God doesn't make mistakes" line at me, pretty much saying I should just live as a masculine female and deal. I myself am religious, and have tried to explain to her that I'm not saying that God "made a mistake" but I am not comfortable. She knows that I do not feel the sterotypical I was born in the wrong body (I id as andro, but more on the male side and want to transition), so my comparisons to it being like any other birth defect do nothing to help my case. She has even said that regardless, being trans is something completely different. I was just wondering if anyone has any advice to help convince a religious partner that I am not trying to "defy" God's wishes through transition. Thanks!

Ask about birth defects, like cleft palate or microcephaly. Either god does make mistakes, or he makes people wrong for a reason.

Well, God doesn't make mistakes, and He made you however you are for a reason. He knows you inside and out and you trying to deny it and say that your just a female would be saying God is wrong, if you really are male/andro.  And being trans really isnt different than being born with any other birth defect to me (in which people take medicine to fix.) God doesnt look at our outter appearance.

As michaeljay says.

And God made us to improve things.

God likes it when we change and grow.  It has nothing to do with making a mistake (although I personally don't believe God is perfect).  None of us stay the same throughout our life.  We change our hair, our style, our interests, our knowledge base, our role in society, our religion, sometimes even our culture.  We change so many things about ourselves in becoming who we are.  The only reason why this is seen as so different is because it's still viewed as "weird" by most of society.  But some other cultures (certain Native American groups with their concept of of "two-spirited people", for example) see it as a valid and normal change that a person can make as part of growing and become themselves.

Me personally, I've always thought of it in the same terms as I think of how I became Jewish.  There's a believe in Judaism that I really like that says people who are Jewish are born with Jewish souls-- some just get lost or scared and so are born into non-Jewish families.  People who are sincere converts are thought by some in Judaism (myself included) to have been born with a Jewish soul and then responded to the pull to come home.  I think of my transness kinda like that-- I was born with a male soul (or for you an androgyn, leaning male soul) and I'm just responding to the pull to come home.

You could try some quantum theology on her...it tends to confuse people who use religion as a crutch.

I just wanted to say thanks for sharing that about the souls thing Devin. I never heard that before and find it very interesting. It comforts me in a way, because my parents like to use religion as an excuse as to why I'm not trans also. I hope things get better for you brucewayne!

Wait, your girlfriend sees herself as lesbian right? Religious people are usually pretty funny with their logic but this is actually kind of scary.

Well, in my experience, there is no argument that works. I've never heard of a religious person turning around and saying "you know what, I think you are right, it is not a mistake".

My feeling is you would be best served by saying something like "I am sorry you feel this way, but it is who I am and I know in my heart what I am doing is not wrong, I hope you can learn acceptance cause i am not going to change".

There is no need to get into debates and arguments. If they are not convinced that is their problem.

And I think it is kind of ironic that she as a lesbian (I'm assuming she is) is telling you this stuff. A lot of religious people would say similar things about lesbians!

My friend told me a while back what he says when someone says this, it's not word for word because I have a bad memory but maybe it'll help?

"God didn't make a mistake with me. I was given this struggle to learn and grow through it. There was something I couldn't have learned if I were not transgender that I needed to learn and now I have so I am transitioning."


Personally I agree with him. My ex identified as lesbian when we met had I not been born trans I would never have gone out with her and I would be an entirely different person.

Thanks for all the great advice. Actually, no...my girlfriend indentifies as straight....I'm the first female bodied person she's ever been with. She says I am the exception, she is not attracted to other females, doesn't ever see herself with one again if (more like when) we break up.

I'm an atheist, but I was sent to a school for fundamentalist Christians. I would say something along the lines of this.

Someone who is transgender is not a mistake. ->-bleeped-<- exists because there is sin in the world. Since the fall of man the human race has faced birth defects and disorders(Romans 5:12). I am not transgender because my parents or I have sinned. Like the blind man in John 9:2-3, His disciples asked him, "Rabbi, who sinned, this man or his parents, that he was born blind?" 3 "Neither this man nor his parents sinned," said Jesus, "but this happened so that the works of God might be displayed in him. It is hard to understand, but God's ways are higher than ours (Isaiah 55:9). The Bible does not say anything directly about being transgender, but it does acknowledge that there are those who fall outside of gender norms. There was not even a word for transgender back then, but Matthew 19:12 reads "For there are eunuchs who were born that way, and there are eunuchs who have been made eunuchs by others—and there are those who choose to live like eunuchs for the sake of the kingdom of heaven. The one who can accept this should accept it." In many ways I am like a eunuch and I have learned to accept myself.

I need to find comfort. Transitioning makes this possible. Without transitioning I will not be able to live on and serve the Lord. You may not agree with this, but it is my burden to carry. You may think I am sinning, but even if it is, that doesn't make me less of a Christian. "Indeed, there is no one on earth who is righteous, no one who does what is right and never sins (Ecclesiastes 7:20)." Just like the woman in John 8:1-11, I expect those who view my actions as sins to judge me harshly. I also expect others to talk poorly of me even though James 4:11-12 says "Brothers and sisters, do not slander one another. Anyone who speaks against a brother or sister or judges them speaks against the law and judges it. When you judge the law, you are not keeping it, but sitting in judgment on it. 12 There is only one Lawgiver and Judge, the one who is able to save and destroy. But you—who are you to judge your neighbor?"

I hope that we can remain friends though this. Galatians 6:2-5 says to "Carry each other's burdens, and in this way you will fulfill the law of Christ. 3 If anyone thinks they are something when they are not, they deceive themselves. 4 Each one should test their own actions. Then they can take pride in themselves alone, without comparing themselves to someone else, 5 for each one should carry their own load".  " There is neither Jew nor Gentile, neither slave nor free, nor is there male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus (Galatians 3:28)."


Here are link to the verses I didn't write out or explain.
John 8:1-11
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John%208:1-11&version=NIV

Romans 5:12
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=(Romans%205:12&version=NIV

I used the NIV version for all the scripture.

Wow! Thank you Sharky. I appreciate the verses. I was not brought up the same way as her and she often does quote scripture...whereas I know very few off the top of my head to be honest. It will be nice to have a conversation where I can at least feel like I have something backing me up. Thanks!

I'm a religious person and I had/have major issue with getting on T b/c I was afraid I'd go to hell for it.  I talked to a catholic priest and he said I wouldn't go to hell. He was talking about some other stuff too but I can't remember. But what I got from him was he wasn't telling me it was wrong to transition. Just that if i decided to transition I would have to think about moving away and starting a whole new life where no one knows me.

Whenever ever I talk to people who are so against transition, it's like you can argue with them until your blue in the face, they will never understand. They have their beliefs and they can't see it any other way and they believe they are right.

A friend told me if I change myself it would be a smack in the face to God b/c he made me female. I would never do anything purposely to disrespect God. But I'll never get that out of my head about what she said. So a part of me will always feel like what I am doing is wrong.

"God doesn't make mistakes" isn't really a religious argument, it's more of a general term in absence of an explanation.  Kind of like saying "God works in mysterious ways." 

I don't think you can argue religion because religion is used to back up feelings.  It's a symptom of how someone feels, not the reason someone feels a certain way.

Your partner doesn't want you to change.  It's not about the Bible.  It's about what you have together and a fear of change.  If you change, she'll be forced to change her identity.   

I wouldn't argue with her.  I'd start down a path with her.  If you are religious, and you feel that God is directing you down a path, she'll probably want to come along.   She can argue with you, but she's not going to argue with God.   Maybe God is making you a man so she can be straight again, so you can marry in God's church etc. etc.   

Ask questions with her.  She doesn't have scripture that says a woman can not transition into a man..except MAYBE Deuteronomy 22:5 ...but Deuteronomy is full of old law that isn't relevant for most Christians.

Acknowledging that you are trans (or andro, or anything) isn't like saying God made a mistake.  If you're andro, God made you that way.  I wasn't really raised around religion so I can't offer as good a response as Sharky, but that's how I understand it.

I have heard things to the effect that they might say the bible says Man shall not lay down with another man and visa versa and the bible mentions about how man should not wear womens clothing, well that may be true but...
there is plenty of scientific studies that show that in yoru case that your brain has many more things in common with that of a male than it does with a femail brain.
Scientist have showed that F2M has the brain like that of a mail and not a female and visa versa with the M2F.
so in reality you would not be with another girl because your brain is not that of a girl it is that of a guy.
In Gods eyes a real guy with a real guy would be a sin if each guy were perfectly fine with being a guy and every thing like that but wen it comes to our family there is reasons that science is just now learning, God has known this all the time.
In Gods eyes he can read your heart and he knows that you are what you are.  Aloha from Hawaii.

Jennie

'God made me this way'
But luckily i've never been in a religious debate, yet lol

brucewaynegotham.
If you are open to an outside opinion from a non trans religious person I could offer this:
First, your girlfriend is right in that the Bible says God makes no mistakes.
It is written that His ways and works are right and just all together.
But,
If you are a female to male then I reckon you have what others see as a female body.
If this is your girlfriend then she is a female as viewed by others.
That would make your girlfriend a lesbian by outward appearance.
That would be what we say is the pot callin the kettle black.
(from an outside view of traditional church folk)
That would be where the Good Lord said in judging others we condemn ourselves.
I personally think that if you love God you should seek the leading of His Spirit and trust Him to give you the right answer or lead you to the one who has the right answer. Whatever might be the right one for your situation. I reckon only He knows for sure since He knows your heart better than any of us.
Kinda makes me wonder if she is a dyed in the wool lesbian maybe she is afraid if you alter your body she might appear straight to others or doubt herself in her own convictions.
I wish you well with the answer to your dilemma.
Del

Thanks again. Maybe you are right, she is probably just afraid of change and using religion as a reason to back up her feelings. It has nothing to do with her indentity. She identifies as straight and has always been with cis guys prior to me. I'm the first "girl" she's ever dated and as far as she's concerned, most likely the last. She is not attracted to women, but somehow is attracted to me. That is what makes this harder because it's like....well, wouldn't you WANT me to be male appearing then? She just is in denial most likely. We've been together almost two years and her mom (who she is close to, and knows me) still doesn't know we are together. A good majority of her friends don't know we are together. She really doesn't want to be perceived as a lesbian (because she's not one) but being with someone trans is just...not even conceivable to her mind. That's what she always says...."it would be hard enough to tell my mom that I'm dating a girl, she would absolutely die if she knew I was dating a girl who turned into a guy". She doesn't think being gay is wrong (but her mom, and the friends that don't know do).......she has a lot of gay friends, actually. But to her being trans is just a whole different ballgame. Thanks.