Tell her that other people in other places in time and space have believed in Gods that have no problem with ->-bleeped-<-. Ask her what if she is wrong in her belief in a God that she only believes in by accident of birth and upbringing. The magic teapot in orbit around Jupiter is 120% supportive of trans people.

Really you can't.  Since there is no one valid, binding authority everyone has been let loose to interpret it however they want, so that all interpretations are valid, or none of them are.

Quote from: brucewaynegotham on February 19, 2011, 04:49:59 PM
Thanks for all the great advice. Actually, no...my girlfriend indentifies as straight....I'm the first female bodied person she's ever been with. She says I am the exception, she is not attracted to other females, doesn't ever see herself with one again if (more like when) we break up.

I love how people make their own personal exceptions, but they always want you to follow their rules - meaning you can't make exceptions, you have to just roll with theirs.

I know you asked for the viewpoints of other religious people but I'm going to say something a little different.

Religion itself is PACKED full of exceptions. If anyone's read the bible cover to cover they would see the contradictions. That is because a God did not write the bible - humans did. And according to most religions, humans are "flawed". If there is a God that created humans, you'd think this entity would know that humans are flawed. Maybe a God just created the "spark" that becomes life that grows into a human. But what happens to that human while growing and after being born is dependent on the environment and other humans - not the will of a God. God has teachings that have supposedly been "given" to the humans to help them to be better. Personally, I don't think an all-powerful, all-knowing, perfect entity that created the universe and everything in existence is the least bit concerned with the intricacies of human life and the myriad of nuances to the human brain and body.

It continually amazes me that people assume they know what the all-powerful, perfect, God of the universe does, wants, needs, etc. How arrogant. That's not worshiping God, that's twisting around "following" to say you're just like God - all knowing. It's like when people claim that "God speaks" to them. I back away slowly. You know what would happen if I said an entity speaks to me? I'd be thrown in a psychiatric ward. But religion always gets a free pass. Most people who follow in the "word" of "God" are a little blinded by the light in that they overlook the contradictions and they tend to just make up their own rules to fit in their personalized interpretation of that "word" - much like your girlfriend and her, "I'm not a lesbian" exception.

So essentially your girlfriend is saying she has ALL the answers and only her viewpoint is right and she's allowed to technically be a lesbian just this one time because she's made that exception and her personal friend, God is ok with that, but God told her, "Hey you know that person you're dating and doing the funky monkey with? Well they're wrong."

Yeah, call me a heathen and a smart ass, but think about it.

eta
Just because I called your girlfriend a lesbian, I'm not calling you a girl. I just mean that technically she is if she's alright with getting with a female bodied person - no matter if she says she's "not attracted" to girls or what.

Quote from: insideontheoutside on February 20, 2011, 01:32:29 PM
I love how people make their own personal exceptions, but they always want you to follow their rules - meaning you can't make exceptions, you have to just roll with theirs.

I know you asked for the viewpoints of other religious people but I'm going to say something a little different.

Religion itself is PACKED full of exceptions. If anyone's read the bible cover to cover they would see the contradictions. That is because a God did not write the bible - humans did. And according to most religions, humans are "flawed". If there is a God that created humans, you'd think this entity would know that humans are flawed. Maybe a God just created the "spark" that becomes life that grows into a human. But what happens to that human while growing and after being born is dependent on the environment and other humans - not the will of a God. God has teachings that have supposedly been "given" to the humans to help them to be better. Personally, I don't think an all-powerful, all-knowing, perfect entity that created the universe and everything in existence is the least bit concerned with the intricacies of human life and the myriad of nuances to the human brain and body.

It continually amazes me that people assume they know what the all-powerful, perfect, God of the universe does, wants, needs, etc. How arrogant. That's not worshiping God, that's twisting around "following" to say you're just like God - all knowing. It's like when people claim that "God speaks" to them. I back away slowly. You know what would happen if I said an entity speaks to me? I'd be thrown in a psychiatric ward. But religion always gets a free pass. Most people who follow in the "word" of "God" are a little blinded by the light in that they overlook the contradictions and they tend to just make up their own rules to fit in their personalized interpretation of that "word" - much like your girlfriend and her, "I'm not a lesbian" exception.

So essentially your girlfriend is saying she has ALL the answers and only her viewpoint is right and she's allowed to technically be a lesbian just this one time because she's made that exception and her personal friend, God is ok with that, but God told her, "Hey you know that person you're dating and doing the funky monkey with? Well they're wrong."

Yeah, call me a heathen and a smart ass, but think about it.

eta
Just because I called your girlfriend a lesbian, I'm not calling you a girl. I just mean that technically she is if she's alright with getting with a female bodied person - no matter if she says she's "not attracted" to girls or what.

This.
Honestly, nothing would work with people who reached that point.

I believe that my transition is a direct chalenge to me by God/Goddess to be true to myself regardless of the social cost.
If we can't be true to ourselves, how are we going to be true to god?

I just want to say, so many people have written things here and really "hit the nail on the head" :p Im glad to see posts that arent arguing against religion (as it seems, many people do!)

I am a Christian, and I have wrestled with my own faith with transitioning over the years, but the way I see it, is God didnt make a mistake. He hasnt made me the way I would have chosen, but we all see things from a human perspective, God does things for a reason and there is a plan for everyone. I think that going through something so strenuous for your soul as transition is, helps you to grow closer to God (as someonen who believes in Him anyway...) during struggles.

I had to leave a Church at 16 because one woman who offered to counsel me about this issue, we just did NOT see eye to eye. But this lead me to another Church, and the Pastor there (R.I.P) was great. He knew I was trans (cos my Mum explained to him...) and he said one thing I wont forget. He said that God will use me to help others in ways noone else can. Others going through anything similar or just as hard, they arent going to want help or advice from someone who has had it easy, their wrds may just seem prescriptive but with no emotional understanding. As he said, a person may think "Im going through hell, I dont want to hear from you unless you have been there and back!"
Well, to me those were great words, but that may just be me :p

At the end of the day, God is judge, no person on Earth is so I dont see how they can tell us what is in our heart and mind, is wrong.

A guy on another forum I belong to offered this as a response to religious people and I really liked it. 


"God made me a transsexual, and to ignore it and pretend I wasn't would be to insult His creation. I accept myself the way I am- a man born into an incorrect body- and I live accordingly, using the tools God has given me (such as hormonal treatments and surgery) to embrace my life as it is, and live it to the fullest. I do not judge others who accept the life God gave them, and I do not expect to be judged for leading my life as I do. When my time comes, God will be proud of me because I embraced the challenge He gave me, and made my life all that it could be."

*How to respond to a religious argument?*

Simply don't....its such a terrible waste of your life's energy....

There have been numerous variants of u'man types to date.... were just one of em.... many have died out...

And we are steadily keeping on, and ever changing.... no GOD involved at all....just DNA & nature....

What comes next (us here, in a sense are already a part of it) is Homo Evolutis....

Faith was the original sin, doubt our redemption.

Quote from: tekla on February 20, 2011, 05:30:27 PM
Faith was the original sin, doubt our redemption.

I dont see how that is relevant.

i'm going to quote something Janet Lynn has said in another thread. "No human can speak the mind of god. This is the greatest sin. Therefore they are totally wrong. But they say they speak for god. They would have a front row seat in hell."

Quote from: insideontheoutside on February 20, 2011, 01:32:29 PM

Just because I called your girlfriend a lesbian, I'm not calling you a girl. I just mean that technically she is if she's alright with getting with a female bodied person - no matter if she says she's "not attracted" to girls or what.

A person's sexuality is not defined by the genitals of the person they are dating.   You are kind of invalidating everyone's transsexual identity that way. 

Quote from: Andy8715 on February 20, 2011, 06:48:02 PM
A person's sexuality is not defined by the genitals of the person they are dating.   You are kind of invalidating everyone's transsexual identity that way.

Wow, way to miss my point there.

I'm not sure I understood your point at all.  I'm going OT from the religion part of this post.  I'm confused that you seem to think that a cis woman who dates a man (who's body happens to be one someone FAAB) is a lesbian, just because the of the man they are dating's genitals (or what you perceive they may be like)

In my opinion people use religion to prove they are right and the other is doing something wrong.
There is no prove of existing a God, the bible is written by somebody.
If there is a God how would someone know what He wants, does they talk with their God and do they get some answer?

They just don't want to have responsibility for what they want to say.
Now they can hide behind religious things.
It's just a matter of intolerance, I've seen it many times, not only with religious things but also with finding a job.
People say, well, for me it's not a problem but the team or the customers.
So they  can cover their own intolerance with the intolerance of others.

The same with religion, it's no problem for me personly, but God does not want it.
It's far too easy to say, people like this should be thinking by theirselve and take responsibility for what they say or do.
I totally agree with Tekla, every interpretation is valid or none is valid, you can turn it the way you want to.
And that's what most people do.

hugs
annette

Regarding the arguments - I say use something like Sharky said with all the quotes from the scripture and just be firm that this is YOU and your take on things. Since you are both human, neither of you can be certain whether something like that is "ok" with God or not, and she has to make the decision whether she can live with that or not, and not worry about how you are judged in the "eyes of the Lord". More likely than not, she's still going to be against it because as she said, she can't imagine her mom's reaction to dating a girl, let alone a "girl" who becomes a guy. And this is her true issue. Her mom. Not religion. So I suggest, if you're really keen on making that relationship work, you figure out a way for you two to deal with her mom, and then she just might turn her religious argument around (especially considering she thinks being gay is ok - I really can't see why being trans could be ANY worse).

As for Andy's and insideontheoutside's "debate" on the identity thing. I think what inside is getting at is that this girl acknowledges she's attracted to a girl (since, even though the original poster is not female, she views him as one), yet continues to identify as straight. If I identify as straight and female and am attracted to someone who in my eyes is also female, doesn't that at the very least make me bisexual? On the other hand, if she were to accept that he is male, just born in a female body, this would obviously not be in conflict with her heterosexual identity. I think that's what insideontheoutside was getting at, correct me if I'm wrong.

Quote from: okydoky on February 21, 2011, 07:51:10 AM
As for Andy's and insideontheoutside's "debate" on the identity thing. I think what inside is getting at is that this girl acknowledges she's attracted to a girl (since, even though the original poster is not female, she views him as one), yet continues to identify as straight. If I identify as straight and female and am attracted to someone who in my eyes is also female, doesn't that at the very least make me bisexual? On the other hand, if she were to accept that he is male, just born in a female body, this would obviously not be in conflict with her heterosexual identity. I think that's what insideontheoutside was getting at, correct me if I'm wrong.

Yes, exactly. The girlfriend wants the OP to live as a masculine FEMALE (going by what the OP said that she said) - therefore, she IS attracted to females no matter what she says. When you tie into the religion (which I'm assuming is the new, evangelical type of Christian) thing it gets even sillier on the girlfriend's part because she's just making an exception that she can go ahead and like the OP (and circumvent her religions views on sexual preference) but he can't actually be a man according to that same religion? It's b.s.

@Andy8715 My intention was never to turn this post into some debate - but that seems like your intention. I'm posting this to clear up the "misunderstanding" here.

Quote from: Cruelladeville on February 20, 2011, 05:27:21 PM
*How to respond to a religious argument?*

Simply don't....its such a terrible waste of your life's energy....

^^
This.

Best argument:

There probably is no god as humans are able to comprehend, so quit worrying and enjoy your life.