Quote from: Noah the brave-ish on February 27, 2011, 12:25:35 AM
i almost forgot to mention, those words i highlighted in red are probably so darned expensive. I'm not going to spend most of my check on organic food i probably wouldn't be able to find around here anyway, for the chance that maybe I'd like it and guaranteed no one else in the house would eat it. i need the money for T and top surgery saving.

Tofu and soy are actually really inexpensive for the most part. In Thai restaurants and other places that give you the option of choosing between various "meats" in the dish - chicken, beef, shrimp, tofu, or vegan - Tofu and meat-free are the least expensive options, even less so than chicken. Next time you're in a restaurant, check the menu - vegetarian dishes are least expensive. Meat is the most expensive ingredient, which is why poor people in developing countries can rarely afford it. It's a luxury item.

I think the vegan diet is suitable for very few people. Vegetarian diets, which include milk and eggs, are more reasonable, particularly when it comes to restaurant eating. You have to make some distinction there. And there are certain people who do need meat in their diets. I don't blame them at all.

On the other hand, what irks me to no end is people who agree that meat animals are treated inhumanely, and are bothered by it, but do nothing about it because it would inconvenience them. Which is really all it is, in most cases. If you can get all of your vital nutrients by even minimising meat consumption, and you agree with the arguments of vegetarians that meat is inhumane, wasteful, environmentally unfriendly, and often unhealthy... saying you're not going to change because you think meat is tasty is not a good excuse.

If you disagree with vegetarian arguments, though, you're not compromising your morals. So I have no problem with those people staying omnivorous, even if I disagree with their opinion. Does that make sense?

I have been a vegetarian my whole life. I used to hate it when I was little. I found it so inconvenient. I wished my mom would let me eat meat. It got easier as I got older. In my teens I started to get into animal rights, tried to be vegan. This lasted about 8 months. Then when I was on vacation there wasn't many vegan options.   I didn't want to have salad and peanut butter and jelly for the whole trip. I gave up on it. I realized that I wasn't willing to sacrifice my happiness for an animals. Never went back to veganism. For as long as I live with my family I will be a vegetarian. I eat a lot of the fake burgers and what not. When I move out I want try the real stuff. If I like it better then I will continue to choose that. I don't see how buying meat is much worse than buying milk and eggs. Both the meat and dairy industry are inhumane, wasteful, and environmentally unfriendly. Realistically being vegetarian or vegan isn't going to change much.

Reading some of these comments I am literally facepalming. It is not just my opinion that a vegan diet is a more healthy, more humane and more environmentally friendly diet. It is fact. And there is absolutely no, zilch, nada nutritional requirement for humans to eat meat. We are herbivores, like most animals on this planet. Eating meat is only natural for carnivores, but even then lions and wolves don't run factory farms. Our eating of meat is killing us: obesity, heart disease, diabetes. These are lifestyle diseases. Eat meat if you want but know that it will clog your arteries and may lead to cancer and stroke.

Just because cruetly existed in the past is no reason for it to exist today or tomorrow. Once it was considered acceptable to beat children, rape women, keep slaves, discriminate against Jews and Blacks. Society has evolved and we now have outlawed such practices. I look forward to the day when our society does not look at non-human animals as commodities to be abused, used-up and discarded. Life is precious. It should not be treated the way it is in our society today.

I am vegan because I don't eat my friends. Animals are my friends. I am healthier being vegan. It is cheaper too. I am doing my bit to save the earth and the sea. One day I hope that state subsidies to the grain feed, dairy and meat industries will end and instead the government will fund vegetables and fruit and grain for human consumption so we can end starvation and enjoy a happier more healthy life. Meat is only cheap because the taxpayer pays the subsidies and the clean-up. Then we also pay through our health care system. If people went vegan the demand for hospital care and medicine would collapse, saving hundreds of billions of dollars every year. It is only an idiotic system that grows grain to feed cows to feed humans to make them sick. All for a product we don't need and can not digest properly. Cut out the cows and we eliminate starvation, animal cruelty and lifestyle diseases.

I am not looking to convert anyone. I am in no one's face. I am simply presenting the facts and speaking my truth, what I feel and believe. Normally I try to avoid confrontation, especially online. I think it is pointless but on this issue I think it is so so important. I wish only to plant a seed of awakening that may someday grow into a flower of consciousness.

You guys are lovely people and as people I think you are great. I am not disrespecting you as individuals, but rather I do not agree with the food decisions you are making. Likewise I am sure you do not agree with my ideology but would have no problem with me as a person. I used to be exactly the same as you. I thought vegans were crazy, out of this world. Never in a million years would I have thought that I would one day be vegan. Everyone is free to believe what they wish but I will not miss an opportunity to spread the truth and allow another to reach their revelation. I became vegan because someone opened my eyes. I simply do not want to deny another from opening theirs.

I speak what I do so animals can be saved and the earth and the sea can be better off. I say what I say because I believe it is important for my children and my childrens' children and so on. Take it or leave it. I am only speaking my truth. I encourage you to speak yours and may we all be more elightened because of it. There is room for everyone's truth and story. Being vegan is part of mine. I like to share it with anyone who is willing to listen.

Peace.

Niamh.

Only for those who are interested I would like to point you to a woman called Colleen Patrick-Goudreau. Search for her on the web and you'll find her podcast and website. She is highly intelligent and can talk about this issues better than I. Plus she can give you recipes for great food. I don't want to link in case it breaks forum policy.

We are herbivores
Not true.  Humans have evolved as omnivores.  The teeth are the proof.  We do not have a full set of cow/horse teeth, at least in the front, we have canine teeth evolved for ripping meat.  We are also not rummanents, a common feature of herbivores.

Animals are my friends.
Yeah, but they won't lend you money or pick up up at the airport.  The parks around here have warnings at the trail-heads about mountain lions, and many tend to strongly emphasis that the mountain lions prefer to take children, so they are not all bad.  If animals are your pals, try swimming with the sharks.
mountain lion warning

being vegan. It is cheaper too.
Meat is only cheap because the taxpayer pays the subsidies and the clean-up.
Which is it?  Only one choice between two choice can be considered the 'cheaper' of the two.

If people went vegan the demand for hospital care and medicine would collapse
Highly dubious.  The majority of hospital care is for stuff related to aging and accidents.  No matter what your diet you are going to get old, and get some old person way of dying attached to you and are going to need care.  And going vegan is not going to stop traffic accidents.

I'm glad tekla pointed out the teeth thing, because that was the biggest flaw in that vegan argument. :/

Anywho, I doubt this thread was made to be a debate anyway, so let people eat what they eat and just answer the question.

I'm so old I remember when ordering lunch was a matter of taste and budget and not a political statement.

Vegan and vegetarian is a choice.  As Tekla pointed out human are omnivores.  We can eat just about anything. 

Our eyes are int the front of the head and we have binocular vision.  Like predictors.

Herbivores have their eyes on the head of the head to watch for predictors.

If you wish to get a strict vegan diet, please go forth and live your life.  All the more bacon and steak from me. 

And I do have friends who live a vegan lifestyle.

Quote from: niamh on February 28, 2011, 09:28:25 AM
Reading some of these comments I am literally facepalming. It is not just my opinion that a vegan diet is a more healthy, more humane and more environmentally friendly diet. It is fact. And there is absolutely no, zilch, nada nutritional requirement for humans to eat meat. We are herbivores, like most animals on this planet. Eating meat is only natural for carnivores, but even then lions and wolves don't run factory farms. Our eating of meat is killing us: obesity, heart disease, diabetes. These are lifestyle diseases. Eat meat if you want but know that it will clog your arteries and may lead to cancer and stroke.

I don't normally talk very much about this, but I have Crohn's Disease. There is a very long list of things that I cannot eat in any significant quantity, and among them are beans, soy, and most high-fiber foods. The vegetable matter that I can eat without triggering a relapse is confined almost exclusively to highly refined, processed foods most of which have minimal nutritional value and almost no protein, calcium, or B-vitamins.

Asking me to eat vegan is asking me to commit myself to a slow, miserable process of wasting away from malnutrition. If I lived in a less wealthy society, that would probably be my fate. And perhaps it should be. But you'll have to forgive me if I tend to place a certain value on my ability to live a reasonably healthy, active life. And that, for me, requires eating some animal foods.

And I would really appreciate it if you would consider that some of us have health issues and dietary constraints that you might not be familiar with before you start passing out dietary recommendations to strangers. Thank you.

It would also help if you got your science straight. The fact is that humans, like most of our closer relatives, are omnivores, and meat has made up a substantial portion of our diets for hundreds of thousands of years, including the pre-agricultural era when we were at our healthiest (which was also the last time we were this tall...but without the obesity, tooth decay, and heart problems that come from agriculture/mass grain consumption).

Quote from: niamh on February 28, 2011, 09:28:25 AM
Reading some of these comments I am literally facepalming. It is not just my opinion that a vegan diet is a more healthy, more humane and more environmentally friendly diet. It is fact. And there is absolutely no, zilch, nada nutritional requirement for humans to eat meat. We are herbivores, like most animals on this planet. Eating meat is only natural for carnivores, but even then lions and wolves don't run factory farms. Our eating of meat is killing us: obesity, heart disease, diabetes. These are lifestyle diseases. Eat meat if you want but know that it will clog your arteries and may lead to cancer and stroke.

Just because cruetly existed in the past is no reason for it to exist today or tomorrow. Once it was considered acceptable to beat children, rape women, keep slaves, discriminate against Jews and Blacks. Society has evolved and we now have outlawed such practices. I look forward to the day when our society does not look at non-human animals as commodities to be abused, used-up and discarded. Life is precious. It should not be treated the way it is in our society today.

I am vegan because I don't eat my friends. Animals are my friends. I am healthier being vegan. It is cheaper too. I am doing my bit to save the earth and the sea. One day I hope that state subsidies to the grain feed, dairy and meat industries will end and instead the government will fund vegetables and fruit and grain for human consumption so we can end starvation and enjoy a happier more healthy life. Meat is only cheap because the taxpayer pays the subsidies and the clean-up. Then we also pay through our health care system. If people went vegan the demand for hospital care and medicine would collapse, saving hundreds of billions of dollars every year. It is only an idiotic system that grows grain to feed cows to feed humans to make them sick. All for a product we don't need and can not digest properly. Cut out the cows and we eliminate starvation, animal cruelty and lifestyle diseases.

I am not looking to convert anyone. I am in no one's face. I am simply presenting the facts and speaking my truth, what I feel and believe. Normally I try to avoid confrontation, especially online. I think it is pointless but on this issue I think it is so so important. I wish only to plant a seed of awakening that may someday grow into a flower of consciousness.

You guys are lovely people and as people I think you are great. I am not disrespecting you as individuals, but rather I do not agree with the food decisions you are making. Likewise I am sure you do not agree with my ideology but would have no problem with me as a person. I used to be exactly the same as you. I thought vegans were crazy, out of this world. Never in a million years would I have thought that I would one day be vegan. Everyone is free to believe what they wish but I will not miss an opportunity to spread the truth and allow another to reach their revelation. I became vegan because someone opened my eyes. I simply do not want to deny another from opening theirs.

I speak what I do so animals can be saved and the earth and the sea can be better off. I say what I say because I believe it is important for my children and my childrens' children and so on. Take it or leave it. I am only speaking my truth. I encourage you to speak yours and may we all be more elightened because of it. There is room for everyone's truth and story. Being vegan is part of mine. I like to share it with anyone who is willing to listen.

Peace.

Niamh.

Only for those who are interested I would like to point you to a woman called Colleen Patrick-Goudreau. Search for her on the web and you'll find her podcast and website. She is highly intelligent and can talk about this issues better than I. Plus she can give you recipes for great food. I don't want to link in case it breaks forum policy.

The average vegan is healthier than the average meat eater. If veganism was the more common one, I bet there would be a ton of unhealthy vegans. A little meat in your diet isn't going to compromise your health any more than a little junk food will. Like with all other foods moderation is key. When you compare human anatomy to the typical carnivore, herbivore, and omnivore, we do match the herbivore design. We don't have big claws for taking down animals or sharp teeth for mauling. Our digestive tract resembles that of a herbivores and what not, but we also have the ability to use tools and make choices. Our bodies are capable of being nourished by meat, dairy, and eggs. We don't need sharp claws to bring down an animal. We don't need sharp teeth to rip through a carcass. We have guns, forks, and knives. We also have the ability to prepare and cook our food. Eating meat is natural for more than just carnivores. It is also natural for omnivores. Even some primates that are also considered herbivores have been observed eating omnivorously when they took the opportunity to do so. I bet if lions and wolves had the intelligence to run factory farms, they would. Eating meat isn't killing us. Over eating and poor diets are killing us. This is simply a matter of cause and correlation. Both my grandparents have been vegetarians for about 30 years. They are both obese and have obesity related illnesses. My uncle who is dying in a hospice from cancer also ate very little meat. I could certainly loose a few pounds and I've been a vegetarian my whole life.

In a perfect world no being would suffer, but that will never happen. I'm not saying that you shouldn't try to limit the suffering of others, or that you shouldn't help. The reality is that some utopia will never exist. For society to be where it is today slavery was necessary. The truth is, society evolves and thrives on the suffering of others.

In order for factory farms to be completely reformed, society will need an impossible change of heart. I'm not trying to persuade you from trying to do your part, but your efforts are just a drop in a very large bucket. Yes most crops grown are feed to the billions of animals in the meat and dairy industry. Yes that land could be used to grow crops to feed the starving, but that isn't going to happen. There is no finical profit in that. Healthcare will certainly not collapse, another cause and correlation issue. Even if it did save billions, it doesn't really seem like much when you're dealing with trillions.

Planting seeds of awakening is trying to convert others. You have presented many half truths and emotional appeals. If being vegan makes you happy, go for it. Just don't expect others to take suit and follow. Most people don't appreciate attempts of enlightenment, especially when it comes to putting an animal's health and happiness before theirs.

Quick input on the vegan health issue:
When I went vegan, my weight went up, and my health (cholesterol, blood sugar, thyroid, etc) got worse.  My dad had similar issues when he did the same thing years ago.  We're both a lot better health-wise now that we eat meat.  I think that the best possible combination of foods varies widely between people, so it's hard to say that veganism is healthy in general.

Quote from: kyril on February 28, 2011, 01:31:26 PM
I don't normally talk very much about this, but I have Crohn's Disease. There is a very long list of things that I cannot eat in any significant quantity, and among them are beans, soy, and most high-fiber foods. The vegetable matter that I can eat without triggering a relapse is confined almost exclusively to highly refined, processed foods most of which have minimal nutritional value and almost no protein, calcium, or B-vitamins.

Correct me if I am wrong (I am genuinely interested in learning about health and nutrition) but as far as I have learned Crohn's disease is an inflammatory disease of the intestines, one of the causes of which, is believed to be excessive concumption of animal and milk protein. It is also believed that vegetable protein has a negative correlation to Crohn's.

I also found out that isotretinoin has been linked to Crohn's which is interesting because one of the most popular brands of oral isotretinoin is Roaccutane, which I took for a year, after which I got sick with digestive and intestinal problems prompting me to start giving up animal products.

If you can't eat animal products and you can't eat soy, beans or highfiber foods, what do you eat?

Quote from: Lee on February 28, 2011, 10:49:26 PM
Quick input on the vegan health issue:
When I went vegan, my weight went up, and my health (cholesterol, blood sugar, thyroid, etc) got worse.  My dad had similar issues when he did the same thing years ago.

Out of interest, what did your vegan diet consist of and how long were you vegan? Plants have a sterol level of roughly 50mg/kg (compared to roughly 5g/kg for meat) so if you cut out the meat, dairy and eggs I have no idea how that went up.

Quote from: niamh on March 01, 2011, 05:59:17 AM
Correct me if I am wrong (I am genuinely interested in learning about health and nutrition) but as far as I have learned Crohn's disease is an inflammatory disease of the intestines, one of the causes of which, is believed to be excessive concumption of animal and milk protein. It is also believed that vegetable protein has a negative correlation to Crohn's.

I also found out that isotretinoin has been linked to Crohn's which is interesting because one of the most popular brands of oral isotretinoin is Roaccutane, which I took for a year, after which I got sick with digestive and intestinal problems prompting me to start giving up animal products.

If you can't eat animal products and you can't eat soy, beans or highfiber foods, what do you eat?9

Onset of Crohn's has a small positive correlation with consumption of animal protein, a small negative correlation with consumption of vegetable protein, and no correlation with fish protein. However, the studies demonstrating this come with caveats: the geographic distribution of populations who carry the genetic mutation responsible for susceptibility to the disease corresponds quite neatly to the geographic distribution of cultures who eat a lot of animal protein and don't eat vegetable protein. It's very difficult to control for the cultural/geographic confounding variables and to my knowledge no study has done it conclusively. Crohn's specialists tend to be very clear that this is a genetic disease that is not caused by diet, although diet and some medications may play a part in triggering it for some people.

That said, even if diet has a role, that's only the onset - once you've got it, you've got it for life, and it doesn't really matter how you got it. Most people with it find they do best on a relatively low-fat, low-fiber diet consisting mostly of refined carbohydrates, liquids (juices, broths, milk) and some moderate amount of soy, meat, fish, dairy, and/or eggs. Many of us are sensitive to soy, lactose, or gluten (soy in my case, although lactose also gets me if I eat a lot of it) so that adds further restrictions.

I've been in very nearly symptom-free remission for years now. The digestive tract doesn't actually tend to heal from damage inflicted during periods of active disease, but it does start functioning better/being more resilient, especially with medication. I can mostly eat a little bit of almost anything I want right now. But I have to be extremely careful, because foods - especially high-fiber or high-residue foods like whole grains, fibrous vegetables and fruits, beans, basically anything sold in a health food store - can and do trigger relapses. So the bulk of my diet is still white rice, white bread, and white meat. Which of course comes with its own set of health issues, but those are less immediate concerns.

Thanks for that, kyril. It was interesting to read. I wish you good luck with your health.

Thanks

well now! damn all i wanted to know was if other guys craved bacon like i do  . really. then it turned into 3 pages of arguing. i didn't want a vegan vs. meat eater debate but that's what it turned into only half way through the first page *sigh* it all was an interesting read though  and to the person who started the whole vegan thing, you sounded like everything would be sunshine and puppies if everyone went vegan and stopped eating all animal meat. well most of the time people get into car accidents because they're not paying attention to the road but talking or texting on their cellphone instead. has nothing to do with what they ate. people would still have heart attacks and strokes because that's most of the time genetic even though it's made worse with too much cholesterol and junk food. i remember when my dad was in the hospital for that most on the list of foods he couldn't have anymore was junk food. but still, people would still need to use hospitals because bad things would still happen, falling off ladders resulting in broken limbs and head trauma, also nothing to do with what they ate, you get my point. i bet if everyone on earth switched there would be A LOT of doctors visits just because hardly anyone is used to non dairy non meat eating every day. their bodies would shut down if they didn't switch back. unless i guess if they did it really slow and gradual and if they saw it as right for them.

Quote from: tekla on February 28, 2011, 10:15:11 AM
I'm so old I remember when ordering lunch was a matter of taste and budget and not a political statement.

haha exactly

Quote from: Janet Lynn on February 28, 2011, 10:43:58 AM
Vegan and vegetarian is a choice.  As Tekla pointed out human are omnivores.  We can eat just about anything. 

If you wish to get a strict vegan diet, please go forth and live your life.  All the more bacon and steak from me. 

that too! I'm assuming you meant 'for' funny though.

Bacon is more than the Ferrari of meat, it's the crack cocaine of all foods.  It's our most awesome reward for being at the top of the food chain.  If it turns out that bacon is not good for the pig, too bad.  I don't eat it by the piece, I grab it by the handful.  And it goes with beer, which is proof that god loves us.

Quote from: tekla on March 03, 2011, 07:49:24 PM
Bacon is more than the Ferrari of meat, it's the crack cocaine of all foods.  It's our most awesome reward for being at the top of the food chain.  If it turns out that bacon is not good for the pig, too bad.  I don't eat it by the piece, I grab it by the handful.  And it goes with beer, which is proof that god loves us.

Amen

Bacon threads always make people crave bacon, they must be started by pig farmers! And always save the grease, it's kitchen gold! And start your own topic, you long winded vegans!

Quote from: Tracey on March 03, 2011, 10:06:32 PM
Bacon threads always make people crave bacon, they must be started by pig farmers!

Yeah.  I was going to eat spaghetti tonight, but after reading this thread I think I'll have meat.

Do both, why do you think the Italians invented carbonara sauce?