Some things I am are Atheistic, Liberal minded, And a huge Science fan particularly biology... With this particular setup of personallity you'd have gathered I wasn't organized religions #1 fan. But that was fine, I recognised some pepole needed that it I personally didn't. Some of them are douches but I would just roll my eyes.

Then I begun my transition and it's not always so easy... 3 seperate incidents...

3 years ago a GP who told me I won't be assisted with transition and I have a sexual fetish.

last year somtime a Christian Dentist changed his mind about registering me with his practice learning of why I took spiro and estrogen.

And a few months ago the christian property Agent who moved in with me inquired insulted assailed with angry bible quotes then attempts at eviction. By far the worst as I couldn't get away and the torment and impending peril of begin homeless at any moment and having to abide the whims of my tormentor went on for months

At the time of these events the only emotions I felt were fear, humilation and self-loathing. This passed in time and I didn't think I was too badly effected by what I'd been through the occasional nightmare.

I recognised afterward however I was becoming fearful of christians in general when someone would declare there religion I'd feel a need to not reveal myself defensively lie and be dishonest about myself.
not wanting a phobia to become entrenched, I did what I always do to overcome my fears... Face them and immerse myself in them.
I visted various christian groups, went to the religious seminars at uni, spoke to them and was open about myself and my past, these pepole wern't part of my life and couldn't really hurt me from such distance.

But they did somehow. I found 2/3rds of them to be just as bad as the monsters who harmed me or WORSE and I found myself having to relive my nightmares over and over under there judgemental pointing fingers when they would openly defend the actions of my attackers, And provide biblical justifcation on why my feelings and pleas for understanding were irrelivent. "Man's heart can be mislead or tricked gods word is absolute and infallable."

A few days ago I couldn't concentrate on my work Everything just bugged and distracted me the slightest noise movement or anything. unable to even read I went off to be alone center myself and calm down.

I suddenly found myself blurting out how angry and furious I was at the above events that have transpired eventually declaring how I HATE all christians I dispise them all so much and I want to subject every one of them suffer in unspeakable anguish and humilation like I did.
I felt better after getting it out but still angry.

I've never felt true hate in myself before, I didn't know howto deal with it.
it's not a nice thing to have inside myself. I'm looking at solutions for overcoming it but unfortunately most of these self help books have a distinctly christian edge to them refering to religious elements a good way of making me go berserk and making the problem worse.
Even hearing a christian speak on unrelated matters now infuriates me and I will presume the reasoning they have on matters is simplisticaly "They are all Racist, Chauvanistic, Vindictive"

Umm help? how do you overcome it?
I want to let go but I know they feel no regret or acknowledgement of guilt. And I know I will be hurt more if I do let go.

The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?
               Jeremiah 17:9

Quote from: pebbles on March 08, 2011, 07:09:40 AM
Umm help? how do you overcome it?
I want to let go but I know they feel no regret or acknowledgement of guilt. And I know I will be hurt more if I do let go.

They never will feel regret, humility, or guilt towards people like us. They think they are right and righteous and we are wrong. Simple. You won't change the majority of their minds, so stop trying.

You said it above, let it go. Get over it. Move on, life's too short. They have the issues, NOT YOU. It's not your responsibility to educate the uneducated. There's a lot of ignorant people in the world, just not Christians, but in all religions. And any religion if taken to extremes, will amount to the same hatred, fear, intolerance and ignorance. I'm not a fan of any organized religion. Spirituality is really a personal thing for each person IMHO.

Oh, I can sympathize with you on the hateful landlord situation. Been there, done that. Not fun at all.

What about the members of this forum that are Christians?

Quote from: Rabbit on March 08, 2011, 09:06:22 AM
What to do about it? Stay away from christians! Seriously, it is a cult. They put on the happy face of "love everyone", but when you actually get down to business... it is really a vehicle for hate and control.

The "I'm christian but I don't really do anything but take the kids to see santa once a year" are a little safer. But, still, they take their cues from a general "this is how christians should be" mantra (and, most have never actually read the bible that they are living their lives by)... this means if they see a bunch of christians running down the road to burn the "evil gays", they will probably join in because they want to live up to the ideal of "how a christian should be".

Basically, christianity (and other religions) give people a way to push their agenda onto others. It has been this way for a very very long time. From kings claiming the "backing of god", to egypt and each of the different gods giving the leadership authority... down to the shaman who tricks everyone in the village to believe he is able to wield the powers of nature and life.

When I run across someone who attends church... i keep things on a very work-only relationship. I consider them dangerous (as in, they have the capacity to violently kill you and support horrible things happening to you... the ring leader just needs to rattle their cage to get them worked up about an issue, like the republicans do with gay marriage).

At the end of the day, they are living their lives based on fantasy. They are lacking some mental capacity to see the major logic flaws in their beliefs (try to debate christians about why they believe what they do, it ALWAYS ends up as "just because i do"... ALWAYS).... and that mental defect can very easily carry over to other parts of life (such as beating you to death because you aren't living in a way they approve of). 

It is scary stuff, and the reason a lot of really bad things can / do happen.

((And this all carries to other religions as well, jewdism and some of the more philosophical religions are less dangerous, but still plenty of cultish behaviour to make you worried)))

i agree. i've found out that those christian people that think we're abominations has nothing to do with "god made a mistake." it's only their own hate group. the bible says nothing that i know of that males need to be masculine or females need to be feminine. that is the real argument, because the rest of their argument holds no water. they are truly very uneducated people who believe in living a life by a book, not with any real morals or values. they think this is "the word of god." they have no business speaking the word of god. they would be the ones going to hell, because they create war in society. jesus had long hair, and was very peaceful and passive. he was feminine if you ask me. so changing sex or being homosexual, those have nothing to do with anything.

btw, the more devaut ones are very misogynist people. thinking men are superior to the women.

In my experience, the religion is not the problem, so much as the kind of person who uses religion - be it Christianity, Islam or anything else - as a vehicle to express their own feelings of intolerance, hatred, fear, inadequacy, aggression and so on. This kind of fundamentalist mindset crops up in politics, too ... in sports: the kind of crazed fan who thinks that in order to support his team he has to hate someone else's ... in single-issue politics, be it environmentalism, sex/gender activism (there are some pretty hard-core transsexuals out there). Some people are just filled with hate and there's an end of it.

On the other hand, a person who believed in the kind of Christianity I can respect (though I am not a believer myself) would be tolerant, compassionate, loving and understanding on the basis that we are all God's creatures and all equally deserving of love. That's certainly what Jesus taught, and his entire ministry was about helping the poor, the excluded and the persecuted members of society. I actually attend my local church because I love the hymns and find the services bring me a sense of calm and reassurance ... and one of the other members of our small, village congregation is an elderly post-op MTF. She is always treated with respect and kindness by the other people there. These Christians look on her as a person, not a stereotype ... and I guess we should look on them the same way.

Meanwhile, if the Bible itself won't persuade the morons who are biased against transpeople, I give you the gospel according to Lady Gaga ...
I'm beautiful in my way,
'Cause God makes no mistakes
I'm on the right track, baby
I was born this way

People or groups whose primary religious descriptor is "Christian" are likely to hurt you, judge you, treat you badly. Generic "Christian" in the US has become a word primarily used by a particular brand of evangelical fundamentalist. "Christian" means "homophobic megachurch member." Especially if it's given as a major part of a person's or group's identity.

There are Christians and Christian groups who aren't like that. You'll typically find them calling themselves Episcopalian, or Anglican, or Catholic (the Catholic Church is a horrible homophobic organization, but American Catholics themselves have a long tradition of tolerance and liberalism from their predominantly Irish, Italian, and Hispanic Roots), or Lutheran, or Quaker/Friends, or otherwise identifying themselves by their denomination. They're as Christian as the others (by some standards more so - the tolerant denominations tend to put more emphasis on the words of Jesus and the Gospels, and less on Leviticus and Paul). And when you say you hate Christians, they'll often take it to mean you hate them, and they'll be hurt. But they (by and large) aren't hateful people.

I grew up in an Anglican/Episcopalian church, and while I'm an atheist and always have been (I was born this way as surely as I was born trans and gay) I still love the church and the people in it. My priest was gay, and it was from him, and from the congregation's unconditional love and acceptance of him and his partner (now husband) that I learned to start to accept myself. And even now when I'm down and lonely I know I can go to an Episcopal church and be loved and welcomed and fed. I don't believe in what they believe in...hell, something like 30% of church membership is some variant of atheist/agnostic...but I believe they're good and decent people. And they're Christian.

But Christian clubs, associations, bible study groups, megachurches...even if they start out ecumenical and tolerant, they're quickly hijacked by the right-wing misogynistic homophobes, because they're loud and obnoxious and intolerant and utterly convinced of their moral superiority. Just stay away from them.

this is why god doesn't come back to earth yet.

Dear Pebbles,

I am so sorry that things are so  tough and you have to go through these things.  It is true, I hate the proclamation of Christianity as some divine title that qualifies everyone who claims it with superiority. It is disgusting and wrong.

I will not claim it, because I feel it is a false shroud, that so many people cling to, believing it makes the better than others.

It is nearly impossible to love people who mistreat us and cause us harm. I find myself so angry at people like that. Angry  and resentful. I am very defensive of the people I love. These so called Christians are ignorant hypocrites. They do not follow the one commandment they are given. Love one another as you would be loved.

I have a neighbor who is Christian and she is very accepting and understanding. My brother is a wonderful Christian. There are some really good people too that claim to be Christian. I believe in my heart though that they are great, not because of Christianity, but because the are sincere and good by nature to begin with.

We are thinking of you. We wish you the best always. Sorry that you are having these terrible difficulties.

Many Hugs.

Roxy & Patty

One of the first things you have to realise is that Christians come in many forms.

In general it is the more extreme flavours like Roman Catholics and Evangelicals that are likely to be a pain in the arse. However in amongst all the dross and pharisees there are also some genuinely good and kind people. The trouble is they generally aren't the ones you will notice. They aren't the ones that shout and make the noise. They are the ones who will just help you, and then years later you accidentally find out their religious affiliation.

I have to say I too have a dislike of people who too quickly and openly try to push their Christianity in my face. Apart from anything else such people are often profoundly UNchristian in their behaviour and merely using the faith as a tool to legitimise their own bigotry.

As I was once a lay preacher myself I take great delight in using my superior knowledge of their holy book to publicly debate them and win.

I don't know how you can get past the fear, but I hope it may help you to realise that not everyone who CLAIMS Christian faith, genuinely has a Christian heart, and indeed that some who do have a Christian heart may not choose to own the label.

So your tormentors may not truly be what the claim to be.

Just out of curiosity, Pebbles, what geographic area do you live in?
I have met several perfectly rational Christians.  I nice rule of thumb I've found is that if hey mention God in their daily life beyond "goddamn it," or introduce themselves as Christian/Catholic/what have you without prompting, probably want to stay away.
I myself am mainly agnostic, with a minor belief in the Old Ones.  They don't give a ->-bleeped-<- about us, and when they come back we're all going to die.

Quote from: Serra on March 08, 2011, 11:00:08 AM
Just out of curiosity, Pebbles, what geographic area do you live in?
I have met several perfectly rational Christians.  I nice rule of thumb I've found is that if hey mention God in their daily life beyond "goddamn it," or introduce themselves as Christian/Catholic/what have you without prompting, probably want to stay away.
I myself am mainly agnostic, with a minor belief in the Old Ones.  They don't give a ->-bleeped-<- about us, and when they come back we're all going to die.

I live in southern england.
I try to rationalize it and seggregate the different denominations in my mind that's why I sought out so many other christians. So I could tell myself "Most of them are decent. It was just those three or so who turned out to be monsters."

But when 2/3rds or so came back to bite me, I kinda lost that ablity. 66% of 2Billion is a massive number.

Quote from: pebbles on March 08, 2011, 11:44:15 AM
But when 2/3rds or so came back to bite me, I kinda lost that ablity. 66% of 2Billion is a massive number.

Only 2/3rds? You were doing well then!

I go by the theory that if maybe 10% of the people who claim any particular faith actually practice it in a way which truly helps the world then we are doing well. Some of the rest will eventually see the light, others will continue to blunder through life leaving a trail of hurt and injury behind them in the wake of their unpleasant rhetoric and polemic.

The trouble is you can't tell the wheat from the chaff, and in bible itself it warns us not to try and judge others. So there isn't really a solution to the dilemma other than to try avoid prejudice. In just the same way that we don't want someone outside the community to judge us on some bad experience that they once had with someone who claimed to be trans, we must not make the same mistake when it comes to religious people.

we must not make the same mistake when it comes to religious people.

Really?  I find that people who believe in invisible sky gods, zombies that were dead, but yet, not dead, original sin and all the rest to be proof enough.

Quote from: riven1 on March 08, 2011, 09:57:47 AM
What about the members of this forum that are Christians?

A Christian lives by the teachings of Jesus. One of the most important is, that we must never judge each other on behalf of God.

As Carlita points out, these people are using their claims to justify their own intolerance.

But Pebbles. I really feel for you and where you are. Being surrounded by such people, whatever their claims to justification, will grind you down.

I do hope you can get away from such people.

I was talking to my doctor, who is a transwoman, about coming out to various people and her response was, "what business is it of theirs?" Do these people who are so intolerant really need to know that you are trans? What are you really accomplishing by coming out to all of these people? Perhaps, if these kinds of people get to know you and respect you as a person before they know that you're trans their opinion of trans people might change.

Realizing that you are capable of hate is not an easy thing to come to terms with. It's a dark part of us that we would rather not look it. Often hate is driven by fear. I understand that you're angry with these people and that they are treating you unfairly but perhaps your reaction really coming from your fear of these people and the fact that you have no control over there opinions and actions. I willing to bet that more often than not their reaction to you comes from the same place as your hate for them. They don't understand what you're going through and are afraid of not only the unknown but of what is means for them. Some of the homophones that I've know eventually came to realize that they are gay. I'm not saying these people are trans but you're making them question their own gender identity. I don't think that this is something most people ever do, they are comfortable with their gender even if their not completely comfortable with their gender role.

My point to all of this is that if you don't want to hate them then have compassion for them and this is easier to do if you understand them.

My Buddhist teacher told me a story about compassion that I hope you don't mind me telling.

Your are riding on a subway, it comes into the station and a man and his two children get on. The man sits across from you and stares at the floor while his two kids go wild running around the train bothering everyone there. The man does nothing to control his kids. At the next stop he barks at his kids that this is their stop and to get off the train with him. Later you find out that they had just come from the hospital where his wife and their mother had just died.

If you had known that was going on you might have acted differently then just sitting there getting angry at these people.

Compassion is also a christian value and if these people were really practicing christianity they would be trying to understand you not showing you hate, which is not a christian value.

Me to evangelical preacher: Can God read your mind?

Preacher: Yes and no, but he does not regard the actions of your mind so much as the actions you take with your body.

Me: ... Why does the new testament exist?

Preacher: Because God makes mistakes, and this was his way of atoning for them.


God and I are at peace.

Pebbles, I can't say I blame you. The most traumatic time period of my life is thanks to Catholicism and like you, I harbor an unhealthy hatred and downright terror of most religious people. I agree with avoiding them as much as possible, and I'd honestly say don't try and make any kind of personal relationships with them. I've tried to keep friendships with people who were religious and it's never, ever worked. Acceptance goes both ways. If they won't accept you for something you have no control over, then there's no reason you should even try to accept them for being morons. I can tell you, like others have stated, they're not all like this. My mother's some form of Christian, and she's incredibly accepting. There's always going to be exceptions, but that's no reason to go out and start looking for them.

I just hold to the notion - not radical at all - that extraordinary claims require extraordinarily proof.

To date, no one seems to have such proof.

Quote from: tekla on March 08, 2011, 12:56:38 PM
I just hold to the notion - not radical at all - that extraordinary claims require extraordinarily proof.

To date, no one seems to have such proof.

Until there is proof, I consider myself a loyal follower of Lord Inglip.

There are way too many contradictions in religion, and why let someone tell you what your morals are. Frankly, I can decide that for myself. Woohoo for moral relativism! Ghandi once said something about liking Jesus Christ, but that a great many 'Christians' are nowhere near Christ-like. The thread was about 'Christians', so that's why I'm not talking about any other religions. In the meantime, before we figure out which god is the true god, let's just be nice to each-other.