for the record, i do believe in god. next, i also believe in the christ period. i do not believe in going to a church to have to validate my beliefs, or that i have to not eat meat on the certain calendar days of the year. being an extremist is not good in anyone or anything. if i'm considered a "christian" i don't know. my mom did make me go to ccd classes to get baptised, communion, and confirmation, but my religion really only goes as far as my first two sentences, that's it. i don't have a need to outdo my religion compared to someone else with the thought of it making me a "better person." if you want to be a better person, you need to get your head out of the clouds and live in the land of the living.

Quote from: pebbles on March 08, 2011, 07:09:40 AM
Umm help? how do you overcome it?
I want to let go but I know they feel no regret or acknowledgement of guilt. And I know I will be hurt more if I do let go.

You live near to Southampton don't you hun? If you do, next time you're around I'll teach you some quantum theology, a highly speculative branch of theology i invented in the street one day to break the tiny little minds of a couple of incredibly tanned mormons with very nice teeth (why is it that mormons always have nice teeth?). It works really well on jehovas witnesses as well.

I have often felt the same seething rage towards Christians. Catholics in particular. Everyone in my churc just gossiped gossiped gossiped. "Why doesn't her husband come to church? Is their marriage on the rocks?" "OMG the girl who led Sunday School got pregnant, WHORE!" Shamed everyone into their respective closets. School was even worse for that, most of the teachers were bitter and spewing venom about the dumbest crap.

What does help me is thinking about my one grandma. She's very religious but she doesn't pass judgment...it is no secret that she is devout but she loves me and accepts me. My grandpa too. He struggles more with it but he knows I was born like this ("God made you exactly like this"), he knows that this is something I need to do. He mostly worries for my health.

In addition. It's just them. As I said, they all live in their respective closets. My family hides the stupidest things, like, one person out of the 150+ relatives in two generations got a divorce. Oh noez! Haha. But it just leads to them shaming themselves. They have their own struggles, even if they may not be necessarily as hard and as socially stigmatized as GID. I just leave them to deal with their own ->-bleeped-<-; I choose to love.

It's always frustrating that the actions of a few can have such a strongly negative effect.  Pebbles, it truly sucks to have to deal with these people, but know that there are thousands of us on here supporting you.  I'm going to guess we outnumber the people who have given you a hard time.  It also cheers me up to think that we have to deal with rude people for a very minimal amount of time.  They are stuck with themselves 24/7, and I think that's a pretty good punishment.

As for the religious debate, all I have to say is that decent people come in all forms.  My mother is Christian, and my father was raised Mormon (though, he isn't anymore), and they're about as non-judgmental as you can get.  I've been taught to have an intolerance only of people who are intolerant.  I'm not out as trans, but I am openly bi, which has been a complete non-issue with them.  My friends come from a wide variety of religions, and none of them have ever taken issue with it either.  In fact, my devoutly Catholic friend was offended that I had reservations about introducing her to my then girlfriend.  I guess this is starting to ramble, but my point is that, even if some or many members of a religion hold a certain view, that doesn't give us a right to judge everyone within that belief.  I don't see how religious intolerance should be any more acceptable than intolerance for sexual orientation, race, or gender identification.

(I'll step off my soap box now.)

Quote from: spacial on March 08, 2011, 12:39:40 PM
A Christian lives by the teachings of Jesus. One of the most important is, that we must never judge each other on behalf of God.

As Carlita points out, these people are using their claims to justify their own intolerance.

But Pebbles. I really feel for you and where you are. Being surrounded by such people, whatever their claims to justification, will grind you down.

I do hope you can get away from such people.

Well said.  I just hope that the supercluster of Christians about 80 miles south of me in "Holy Roller Central" have more tolerance for others who are different than themselves.  These are the ones who sent a 'counselor' to try to disuade a mother on the acceptance of her transgendered child on the Dr. Phil show.  The mother wouldn't budge!  Good for her, I had a mom just like her!
  Joelene, a Christian.

Quote from: Lee on March 08, 2011, 04:02:11 PMI don't see how religious intolerance should be any more acceptable than intolerance for sexual orientation

While I'm rational enough to recognize my feelings I can't stop them. And I can see it's not necessarily fair or reasonable to hold such extreme anger towards people who regardless of what they believe haven't personally harmed me.

But I can't stop seeing them as potential threats seeing those who've hurt me inside them through there religious conviction. I feel that belief makes them vicious and cruel.

Pebbles,

I am so sorry that you have had such horrible things said to you by Christians. I have to say though, that I am a Christian and I take my faith very seriously. I know what you have gone through as I too have had similar cruel things done and said to me all in the name of Christianity. I too live in the UK. But and I have to say I know God loves me and has given me a wonderful new life to live. Please don't tar all Christians with the same brush and please try and not blame my God. Its hard I know to put things out of your mind that have hurt so much. In my church I have found so many caring and loving people. I have been in many churches and the one I worship and fellowship in today is the best I have ever been in. So not all are the same.

What can I suggest? Well, I would say to let God judge them, not you. I believe they will answer to him one day, if not today or tomorrow. If we hold things like hate in our heart it becomes like a cancer that eats away at our souls, it grows bigger and bigger until there is nothing left of ourselves but hate. As Yoda said, anger turns to hate and hate turns to suffering. There is real truth in that what ever you believe. We become consumed by it. Look beyond their limited theological understanding of transsexualism and leave it to their God (my God too) to do his thing, he will.

I am sorry to speak in terms of my faith but that's the only way I can express it even if you don't have any faith.

Stardust (A UK Christian)

Rabbit, I find what you have just said offensive and subjective and inaccurate. I have a BA (hons) and a post grade in education. I am currently taking an MA. Ignorant, not able to think critically, I don't think so.  O! did I mention I was a Christian.


Stardust

  @rabbit Yes actually I was just contemplating whether a post stating, in effect, that all Christians were ignorant unintelligent frauds, in a thread where there are already members who have admitted holding christian faith didn't constitute a thinly veiled form of personal attack.

As I have contributed to the thread already I am not going to formally moderate it, but this is a friendly warning that in my opinion you are treading very close to the boundaries on several points of forum Terms Of Service here.

Please be very careful where you take this or other moderators may wish to do what I have not.

Many Christians may be offensive and hurtful to us, but that does NOT give anyone the right to declare open season on all of them.

Thank you.

Granted, I most likely will not be diggin' any religion any time soon, but at the same time I'm not going to disrespect another person's beliefs nor will I stoop to the level of a hater

Quote from: Rabbit on March 09, 2011, 04:14:19 AM
I'm not saying that. Intelligence has a wide range of ways it manifests... logic and reasoning just happens to be a certain aspect of that. I'm not randomly trying to insult christians, just explaining why things are as they are.

If you want to start a thread on religion and debate it back and forth until all the christians post "just because", we can... I have debated this subject many many many times over the years, and it is ALWAYS the final response... again, this isn't meant to be insulting, this is simply what the end of the road is when you dig a little deeper into someones "faith"... always, for everyone. I have never run into a religious person who remotely was able to support why they think what they do. For intellectuals and philosophers, this is a BIG BIG BIG problem.

And this isn't simply a wild claim or an observation born of little experience. I have spoken with rabbi, priests, people young and old (of varrying levels of faith), I have joined christian groups and forums to discuss with them, and ALWAYS (I really can't stress this enough) they have ended with "just because".

This isn't meant to be insulting... I'm not saying these things to randomly insult people (even though of course no one wants to hear that their faith is baseless).

If you feel I am wrong, if you feel that YOUR faith has a strong reason behind it, step up and explain it (but be ready because I will challenge what you say and think... and unless you are confident you can defend that, it will end up "just because"... and, even if you are confident, you will not be for long when i begin to rip apart your arguments...).

That is the thing. I can say these things because I am very confident I can back it up. If you want me to start pulling out facts and go into further detail about why christianity (or other religions) are dangerous, I am more than happy to (such as how christians used to force jews to wear stars to identify them, which was later adopted by the nazi... or the more subtle phenomenon where a social climate is created through disapproving / intolerant views which allow for many of the things we see in a society like america *basically, this is how seemingly harmless people help fuel the actions of others... you don't need to physically pull the gun to be responsible for why a transsexual was murdered. Do you think homosexuality or transsexuals face the issues they do because of a very limited number of vocal "extremists"? It is actually a lot more than that.. western society is heavily influenced by christianity, even those who do not identify directly as christian... for example, the entire overreaction to nudity and viewing the human body as "dirty". Yup, this is a christian thing *you need to follow back the societal history a bit to find out how*).

So, no, I'm not being overly dramatic or unfair to label religion as I have. The effects touch almost every aspect of our lives (to such an extent that many people don't even realize much of it comes from religious teachings).

I'm sorry but I'm not even going to waist my time answering this except the writings of historical fact about Jesus of Galilee in the writings of Josephus, etc. There is more historical evidence than there is for Julius Ceaser another JC. There are other manuscripts numbering thousands regarding biblical evidence of other events, histories and they uphold against critical analysis.

Quote from Rabbit.

If you feel I am wrong, if you feel that YOUR faith has a strong reason behind it, step up and explain it (but be ready because I will challenge what you say and think... and unless you are confident you can defend that, it will end up "just because"... and, even if you are confident, you will not be for long when i begin to rip apart your arguments...).

I find your arrogance actually goes beyond disbelief.

Stardust 

@rabbit I don't debate the validity of religious belief for precisely that reason. It is a futile activity doomed to fail before it even starts in which neither party will win.

The thing you seem to be missing is that it is not necessary for someone to justify their beliefs to you. I could not give monkey's bum whether you choose to believe something or not. It does not concern me one way or another.

Why do I believe? I am not so sure that I do. I may, I may not. I have had periods of faith, I have also had periods of no faith. I can follow the logic of belief, I can follow the logic of disbelief. If you asked me what I believe today, you will get a different answer from the one you would have got yesterday, and indeed tomorrow's answer will be different again.

The REASON why is unimportant. It is the end result, good or bad, which matters. At the end of the day all that matters is whether a particular set of beliefs or disbeliefs help the person to live their lives in a way that they are satisfied with.

I would say that there are many people on this planet,who tend to be "Romulans" emotional and passionate and doing things mainly because they "feel" they are right. Then there are those who tend to be "Vulcans" guided by logic. They need reasons. They need someone to be able to defend and justify. By observation I would say you tend towards this approach, but don't make the mistake of trying to judge everyone by this metric because those of us who tend towards the Romulan approach simply don't understand your need for reason to be supreme.

In any case this thread is supposed to be about dealing with phobia induced by bad experiences with religious people. I feel that in trying to open it up into a debate about the validity of a particular faith we are in danger of getting somewhat bogged down.

Rabbit, I don't think you're wrong, but I think you're over the line. This is supposed to be a supportive forum. You don't have the right to demand that people justify their beliefs.

Many people here have sincerely struggled because the teachings of their faith conflict with their identity and the way they need to live their lives. Most trans and gay religious people are very well aware of the discrimination and persecution perpetrated by various religions. But for whatever reason, their beliefs are important to them - in many cases a core part of who they are, a source of stability and cultural identity.

It doesn't matter why. It doesn't matter if they're right or wrong. The last thing they need, when they come here for support, is to be attacked from the other direction. They need to feel respected as human beings. They need to feel accepted.

I'm an atheist. I share many of your opinions of religion. I can't believe in God; I can't even imagine believing in a god. And I know that the history of religion is largely a long, sad story of oppression, discrimination, war, and genocide. But when people are raised within a framework of a certain set of beliefs, those beliefs (usually) become a part of them. That doesn't make them stupid. It doesn't make them dangerous. It just makes them human. Sometimes I suspect that my inability to adopt those beliefs makes me less human...I know it makes me different. And not necessarily in a good way.

But you...you think you're special in a good way. This isn't the only post you've made to that effect. Maybe you are, I don't know, I don't really know you. But I know that the way you're behaving in this thread is negative, and it's hurting people. Decent, good, human people who came here for help, not for a debate. Please stop.

Quote from: pebbles on March 08, 2011, 07:09:40 AM
how do you overcome it?

I don't.  I use my hate to make myself stronger.  I start listening to Christrian radio stations.  I start studying Biblical debates.  I make myself malevolently informed about my enemies.

They aren't the only ones who can play mind games on people.  If that's the way they want to play, I'm game.  I can roll with that.  If they want a battle of wits, I will come well armed.

My interpretation of a 'christian' reading the bible.

Stone your kid to death for talking back...(forget i just read that), turn page..
Kill your wife on her wedding night if she is not a virgin...(forget i just read that)...turn page
Kill my neighbor if he works on the sabbath (but he cuts my grass) turn page.
Hate homosexuals...ah, finally! Something I can use.

Quote
that all Christians were ignorant unintelligent frauds

All I can say is

We  all will find out in the end, Who's Right!

I always find it interesting that when religion is debated, it seems the unbelievers or haters speak up the most.

Weird! is that guilt?

Until someone can PROVE to me there is NO GOD, I will continue to believe.

My proof there is GOD.     LIFE!

Shelly

Unfortunately it is impossible for a Christian to give a reason you will accept as valid.  No matter how hard they try, no matter how thoughtful it is, those who dislike Christianity will close their minds and deny what was said.

I am a Christian, I have made no secret of that in these forums.  I don't debate it, I don't give excuses for it.  I made an decision to believe when I was 30 (yes thirty years old, and a reasoning adult).

I am not here to convince others, I don't push my faith on others, that decision is up to each individual on their own.

What I am saying is that I will Lock this thread if people can conduct themself more tolerantly of others beliefs.

Global Moderator (Susan's Forums)
Sarah Louise

Quote from: pebbles on March 08, 2011, 05:15:00 PM
While I'm rational enough to recognize my feelings I can't stop them. And I can see it's not necessarily fair or reasonable to hold such extreme anger towards people who regardless of what they believe haven't personally harmed me.

But I can't stop seeing them as potential threats seeing those who've hurt me inside them through there religious conviction. I feel that belief makes them vicious and cruel.

Pebbles, I did not mean for that to be aimed at your or the experiences you shared, and I'm sorry if it came off that way.  These people are (censored for the viewing of younger audiences), and I have nothing against hating them as such.  It only bothers me when people hold a hatred of all members of a belief system with the assumption that they all are like that.  I am not religious in any way, shape, or form, but I know many wonderful people who are. 

Quote from: Lee on March 09, 2011, 10:02:04 AM
Pebbles, I did not mean for that to be aimed at your or the experiences you shared, and I'm sorry if it came off that way.  These people are (censored for the viewing of younger audiences), and I have nothing against hating them as such.  It only bothers me when people hold a hatred of all members of a belief system with the assumption that they all are like that.  I am not religious in any way, shape, or form, but I know many wonderful people who are.

You see that's the problem I do hold that assumption. I can't overcome these feelings even if I know that "they"(Random christian) didn't directly harm me I can't help but see them as (At the very least) Apologists for those who have harmed me and if I'm told they arn't like that I assume they are dishonest and looking for away to get closer before driving another knife at me... as the christian religion instructs them to do dreadful things within it's very scriptures itself the accociation with themselves and the religion is enough for me to be frightened and potentially angry as those pepole who did those things to me openly told me they were simply doing as god instructed. This begin somthing widely universal amoungst them all only adds to my fear and negativity as it instantly makes someone implacable to others emotional pain caused by there own actions.

I struggle to just ignore those extremists and accept the majority of them because that's what I used to do and look what that attitude gave me! I don't feel a need to make them explain why they feel what they do they could belive the moon is made of cheese I wouldn't care it bothers me that see a desire to hunt and harry those whom there scripture condems who through no fault of my own I'm on that list.

Quote from: Rabbit on March 09, 2011, 04:14:19 AM
I have never run into a religious person who remotely was able to support why they think what they do.

*waves*  You just met one then.  The following is a post I wrote some time ago on a religious forum, but it should be convincing enough for you that there are those of us, a rare few, who have a basis for their beliefs.  You as an atheist will not believe what I write nor what I believe, and I make no attempt to convince you otherwise, I just wanted to show you something you've never seen before - a basis for belief.

***

"'Why do you believe what you believe?' is a question I like to ask those who profess faith or belief in anything. This is not just a question I pose to those of religious faith, but to those who believe pretty much anything. After all, how do we really know anything?

While this question of whether or not we really "know" something could have volumes written about it alone, I tend to direct my question more specifically to how an individual (specifically the individual to whom I am asking the question) knows what they know or believes what they believe. I'm not looking for the "right" or "perfect" answer, merely if there is an answer at all. I'm often surprised how many never really think this through because I consider it to be an essential element to my believing anything.

So why is this important to me? It is everything to me. I feel to properly confess belief in anything I must understand why I believe it. For instance, if you were to ask me why I believe the earth is round, I wouldn't tell you it was from personal experience - rather it is that I believe my textbooks and those professors of knowledge who have told me so. I believe the images I have seen of the earth from space and that they are not forgeries nor misconstrued.

If you asked me if I could prove the earth was round, I would not be able to do so - merely refer you to a perceived authority on the subject and let you make the decision of whether or not you believed them yourself. So you might say that I don't really "know" the earth is round and in a sense, you are absolutely correct. I don't "know" it at all. So would you say that I believe it blindly? No, that would not be correct, because my belief is based in reason - I believe that those who believe that the earth is round are telling the truth - you could say, I have "faith" in them.

Wait, how can I be talking about faith on a purely scientific subject, isn't it reserved only for religious people? Absolutely not. I have faith that the people who tell me the earth is round are telling me the truth even though I don't have the evidence myself. I have faith because I do not know of myself - I have faith because I do know with complete certainty that they are not lying to me.

So with this definition of faith, I could say that I have faith in pretty much everything. I have faith that when I rise from my chair and go to my bedroom tonight, that my bed will be as I left it. Do I have proof of this? Not from my current vantage point. My bed could indeed be missing and I would have no idea. I believe my bed is still there though I cannot say with certainty. Of course the question of the bed's existence is easy (without getting too metaphysical) as I could merely stand up and check if it is still there. The point is though, when I act on knowledge I don't immediately possess, I act with faith that what I believe is true.

Sometimes we can be deceived by our faith. Our faith in people, for instance, can be misplaced. Our faith in our bodies can also let us down. When your faith is proven wrong - in other words, when you found out that what you believed and were acting upon was not indeed true, what do you do about it? I find it important to reevaluate why it was that I believed what I did, that way I can potentially prevent a similar error in judgment.

This is why it is so very important to know why you believe what you believe. If you do not understand a belief's origins it essentially becomes tautological - an argument that by its very nature cannot have its inverse proven (basically a belief that is unprovable and impossible to disprove). While tautological arguments are not inherently bad nor immediately untrue, they can be difficult to combat when really trying to get at the basis for a belief to determine if that belief is valid or worth having.

Some base their beliefs completely upon the results of their belief. This is effective and pragmatic, but doesn't necessary make for sound arguments. For instance, "I believe that drinking is wrong, therefore I don't drink. Because I don't drink, I avoid the ills associated with drinking, therefore it validates my belief that drinking is wrong." This is pragmatic, but not necessarily true (or logical). I find that often this is enough for a person's basis in belief and many are content to leave it at that.

I personally feel that I must have more and in that am generally an incredibly skeptical person. That being said, I am also an incredibly religious person. Can a skeptic be religious? I say of course. A skeptic is someone who questions something, but even a skeptic who finds enough evidence to believe something can exercise faith in it. As such, I have enough evidence to convince me that my religious beliefs are worthwhile.

So to come full circle - why do I believe what I believe? Using the reasoning I described above, it can be safely assumed that anything I believe in I have a reason for that is generally faith based. Even when I experience something myself, I must still exercise some faith that what I perceived to be real was indeed as I perceived it to be. This goes for everything: from faith that my bed is where I left it, faith that my car will take me all the way to school, faith that some great discovery will not turn modern neuroscience on its head and force me to change my major, and finally even faith that my religious beliefs are valid.

Because so many of the other elements of faith are very intuitive to those reading this blog, I will focus the rest of this discussion on why I believe what I believe religiously and why am I am a member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.

I believe that the man Joseph Smith was a true prophet of God, that he saw God and Jesus Christ, that they revealed to him that he should reform God's true and original church in these latter days. As such, I believe that what Joseph Smith said God told him to do, God did indeed tell him to do and it was for a wise purpose even if I do not fully understand it. I believe that the church he formed is God's true and living church upon the earth today and it will endure until Jesus Christ returns again. I believe that He, Jesus Christ is the head of this church and is guiding and directing its leaders today. I believe therefore that what the leaders of my church advise us to do is true, that it is from God directly for me to hear and that I will obey as if commanded by God Himself.

But why do I believe these things? While I have had many positive experiences since having joined the church, it is my initial experiences in the end that have convinced me. I believe that after opening my heart to the idea that it could be true, and exercising faith to find out for myself if it was indeed true, that God Himself revealed to me that the church is true and that Joseph Smith was his prophet. He revealed it to me by a power I cannot completely describe, but one of such force that I am convinced totally that it was God who spoke to me, and that if I were to deny it, it would be as if denying that I am alive I am so convinced of it."

***

I went on but it was a bunch of religious stuff that doesn't apply to the point I was trying to make.  You are correct in your assumption that most religious people eventually devolve their faith arguments into "just because" but not everyone is like that - for me, "just because" is not and never will be enough.  I wouldn't be a member of ANY religion today if it were not for the spiritual experience I had telling me to join this specific church.  I'm very agnostic by nature - and it took an act of what I perceived to be God to change that.

To the peanut gallery who understably hate Mormons: This post is not an open invitation to discuss the legitimacy of anything Mormon, I just wanted to make the point to Rabbit that some of us exist that believe they have a basis for their faith.