Quote from: Rabbit on March 09, 2011, 08:32:42 AM
BUT in general, I do feel feel that religious people need to justify their beliefs to me (and it is my duty to mentally shred that belief to pieces).

Why? Well, simply because these people are getting in my business (and a lot of others here)... they are the reason trans people feel the need to be in hiding...

But, you might say that not all religious people are the ones doing this. The thing is, most of them actually are (on one issue or another).

I see ABSOLUTELY no evidence that ANY of the religious members here have ever done such a thing to anyone here. So your case is far from proven and if you start shredding anyone here you will be simply completely out order and liable to the full force of the moderation penalties which WILL acrue from any such behaviour!

Quote from: Rabbit on March 09, 2011, 08:32:42 AM
You see, when a persons belief system tells them that another person is wrong... the person with the belief system begins to distance themselves from that other person.

Which of course is EXACTLY what you are also doing in this thread. Your belief system has told you that religious people are wrong and you are therefore beginning to distance yourself from them.

In your mind they are on trial - they have to justify themselves etc etc....

So unfortunately you are now hoisted by your own petard.

Enough!

So stop it already, before you give either me or one of my esteemed colleagues a reason to place you under formal moderation.

I forget where I got this from... I suppose it doesn't matter.

Dear Dr. Laura:

  Thank you for doing so much to educate people regarding God's Law. I have learned a great deal from your show, and try to share that knowledge   with as many people as I can. When someone tries to defend the homosexual   lifestyle, for example, I simply remind them that Leviticus 18:22 clearly states it to be an abomination.  End of debate.

  I do need some advice from you, however, regarding some other elements of God's Laws and how to follow them.

  1. Leviticus 25:44 states that I may possess slaves, both male and female,   provided they are from neighboring nations.  A friend of mine claims that this applies to Mexicans, but not Canadians.  Can you clarify? Why can't I own Canadians?

  2. I would like to sell my daughter into slavery, as sanctioned in Exodus 21:7.  In this day and age, what do you think would be a fair price for her?

  3. I know that I am allowed no contact with a woman while she is in her period of Menstrual "uncleanliness" - Lev.15: 19-24. The problem is how do I tell?  I have tried asking, but most women take offense.

  4. When I burn a bull on the altar as a sacrifice, I know it creates a pleasing odor for the Lord - Lev.1:9.  The problem is my neighbors. They claim the odor is not pleasing to them.  Should I smite them?

  5. I have a neighbor who insists on working on the Sabbath.  Exodus 35:2 clearly states he should be put to death. Am I morally obligated to kill him myself, or should I ask the police to do it?

  6. A friend of mine feels that even though eating shellfish is an abomination, Lev. 11:10, it is a lesser abomination than homosexuality.  I don't agree. Can you settle this? Are there degrees of  abomination?

  7. Lev. 21:20 states that I may not approach the altar of God if I have a defect in my sight.  I have to admit that I wear reading glasses.  Does my vision have to be 20/20, or is there some wiggle-room here?

  8. Most of my male friends get their hair trimmed, including the hair around their temples, even though this is expressly forbidden by Lev. 19:27. How should they die?

  9. I know from Lev. 11:6-8 that touching the skin of a dead pig makes me unclean, but may I still play football if I wear gloves?

  10. My uncle has a farm. He violates Lev.19:19 by planting two different crops in the same field, as does his wife by wearing garments made of two   different kinds of thread (cotton/polyester blend).  He also tends to curse and blaspheme a lot. Is it really necessary that we go to all the trouble of getting the whole town together to stone them?  Lev.24:10-16. Couldn't we just burn them to death at a private family affair, like we do with people who sleep with their in-laws? (Lev. 20:14) I know you have studied these things extensively and thus enjoy considerable expertise in such matters, so I'm confident you can help. Thank you again for reminding us that God's word is   eternal and unchanging.

  Your adoring fan.

  James M. Kauffman, Ed.D. Professor Emeritus, Dept. Of Curriculum, Instruction, and Special Education, University of Virginia.

PS (It would be a damn shame if we couldn't own a Canadian)

Dear Dr. Laura, Why Can't I Own Canadians As Slaves? | CommonDreams.org


And this one under a picture of the tattoo:

Tattoo of Leviticus 18:22, which forbids homosexuality: $200.

The fact that Leviticus 19:28 forbids tattoos: Priceless.

And this has always bothered me: When and why did everything in the Bible get names and numbers?  Ahhhh...I think someone just wanted to take something out of context and put a name and number on it to look official. But I could be wrong. Thats something I believe in without any faith of it being true.

Augh, I should never have started reading this thread. I have no interest in critiqueing, praising, denegrating or arguing about anyones faith unless they're getting in my face about it or using it to justify something I find ahorrent or unjustifiable. Or they're preaching too loudly and it wakes me up.
Plus, I tend to deal with anything like the OP is on about on an individual basis so didn't feel like I had much to add.

*Begin Derail*

But then I read this

Quote from: stardust on March 09, 2011, 04:41:22 AM
I'm sorry but I'm not even going to waist my time answering this except the writings of historical fact about Jesus of Galilee in the writings of Josephus, etc. There is more historical evidence than there is for Julius Ceaser another JC. There are other manuscripts numbering thousands regarding biblical evidence of other events, histories and they uphold against critical analysis.

So now I have to comment.. and not to beat about the bush, Stardust this is a  lie. End of.  Since you brought up Josephus I'll use him too... there have been more arguments since the 16th century about the validity of his Testimonium ( the one where he writes of Jesus) than there have been total posts on Susans. Any and all non-religious text relating to Christ is highly debatable and whether or not any piece passes critical analysis is in the eye of the beholder and is usually predicated on personal faith in my experience.

Many things are mentioned in the bible that certainly happened, but the fact that a religious text contemporary to the Roman Empire or Assyrian Empire or various Egyptian Pharoes mentions them does not validate or prove the veracity of the religion, only that the people writing about it, you know, went outside and paid taxes inbetween scribbling things down and mentioned some of it while writing something later incorporated in the bible. Using this as evidentiary justification for more esoteric parts of the texts is an infantile argument and one rarely used even in theological courses at university level except as an example of something not to do.

Likewise many figures mentioned in religious texts feature in historical texts, (Pharoes are a good example again) and there are a few historical manuscripts that suggest that figures correlatable to those more widely known as John the Baptist or Jesus of Galilee probably existed.... again, this does nothing to settle the case as to whether the latter was the son of God, prophet of Allah or mad wandering tabloid darling of his day. It just notes that a person of that common name from that populated place caused a ruckus. To imply that non-biblical verification of this existence is prima facia proof of their biblical and deific status is dependent on personal faith, not empirical fact.

And as for there being more historical references( excluding religious text) to Jesus than Julius Caesar? I'm not even going to dignify that with a counter argument. Use google if that bothers you.

Incidentally, on that well covered other JC, Julius Caesar was deified by the Romans after his death, does that mean you believe he was a God, since he definitely existed and it was decided he was the son of a God and raised to be one ?

*end derail*

Apologies to anyone who finds all or part of that derogatory to their beliefs, but I spent quite a chunk of my life at various levels of university picking up qualifications in archaeology, ancient history, medieval literature and mediterranean/levantine historical culture and I find blind statements like Stardusts to be personally and professionally insulting, so I stuck my oar in.

Quote from: Rabbit on March 09, 2011, 08:32:42 AM

When I see someone picking on someone because they are different, I also tend to speak up. Should I just keep quiet because saying they are bigoted would insult them?

Your attitude is no less bigoted and dismissive of peoples faith as some (notice the qualifier some here) religious folks attitude towards the LGBT comunity in general and the transgeder comunity in particular. Fighting hate with hate does not make you noble, merely another hate monger.

Now this thread has been derailed enough, it was a request for help on how to deal with a phobia towards christians that has been brought about by the actions of a few, not to declare open season on the faith in general.

I am politely, but firmly asking you to dissist. Now. If you continue in this frankly unbecoming manner I will sadly be forced to take punitive action, up to and including giving you a warning. As has so rightly been pointed out, bashing an entire faith, when members of the forum have openly stated that they are members of that faith is bodering on an open personal attack and will not be tolerated.

I sincerely hope that i have made the stance of the forum staff absolutely clear hear an that you have not misunderstood me in anyway shap or form?

Good. Now y'all play nice, hear.

Is it okay if I actually address Pebbles's question? I know that calm, reasoned discussion is always off topic when it comes to discussions of religion on the Internet, but perhaps you could forgive me if I deviate from the script for a moment.

I think this is the heart of the matter:

Quote from: pebbles on March 08, 2011, 07:09:40 AM
At the time of these events the only emotions I felt were fear, humilation and self-loathing. This passed in time and I didn't think I was too badly effected by what I'd been through the occasional nightmare.

I recognised afterward however I was becoming fearful of christians in general when someone would declare there religion I'd feel a need to not reveal myself defensively lie and be dishonest about myself.
not wanting a phobia to become entrenched, I did what I always do to overcome my fears... Face them and immerse myself in them.
I visted various christian groups, went to the religious seminars at uni, spoke to them and was open about myself and my past, these pepole wern't part of my life and couldn't really hurt me from such distance.

...

Umm help? how do you overcome it?
I want to let go but I know they feel no regret or acknowledgement of guilt. And I know I will be hurt more if I do let go.

First of all, I'm really sorry to hear what you have gone through. That's the most important place to start from: You have done nothing wrong, and you are just trying to live your life, and these people have somehow decided that you rightly fall under their judgment. They have no excuse, whoever they are, when they judge others; for in passing judgment on another they condemn themselves, because they, the judges, are doing the very same things. (Wait, didn't I hear that somewhere before? Oh, yeah, Romans 2:1. That is the only verse that I feel is necessary to tell Christians who take it upon themselves to berate queer people. If that doesn't shut them up, then they're pretty much dead to me. This works too.)

But arguing who is right isn't the point, and it shouldn't be your concern. You have suffered real harm at the hands of these people, and you have good reason to be concerned about future harm. They're wrong, but so what? You can't make them be decent human beings any more than they can make you not be trans. That's just not your concern. Tell them they can go to Hell, for that's surely where they're going if their religion is right and they remain so prideful and hateful.

What you need to do is to focus on what you can change, which is yourself. If you want to join with groups that try to change laws and social mores, that's a wonderful thing, but that's going above and beyond your responsibility. I think you made a mistake in trying to "confront your fears." That only works when your fears are unreasonable. You actually have something to fear, so you need to figure out how to protect yourself. I'm not really sure what that entails but for me it's a matter of having a strong community of supportive friends and steady employment. So, for example, I don't worry that I will go homeless on account of being trans, because I have my friends, my work, and a community that doesn't have much problem, if any, with me being trans.

But it's not just fear for physical security that matters here. Part of the harm you describe is internal: the humiliation and self-loathing. In no would I suggest that it's your fault you feel that way, but I will suggest that you can change that. Those people took advantage of your frailty, the shame and self-loathing that was already present in you, and aggravated it. The best thing you can do to deal with that pain is to learn that there is really and truly nothing to be ashamed of, and that you're a wonderful person on your own accord. If anyone needs proof of that (which they shouldn't), they can find it in your original post in this thread. You are a blessing to the people around you, and if they reject that, then that's their loss. Your being trans means that you have less to be ashamed about on account of your gender, because you are one of the few people who has had to be truly honest about yourself when the easy path (at least in the short term) would have been to lie.

I can't say I'm really there, myself. But I'm doing a lot better than I used to, and I didn't get where I am by hanging around bigots; quite the contrary.

So what I suggest is this: Recognize the real harm they have caused, understand that you have nothing to apologize for, and take care of yourself physically and emotionally. If you want to reach out in reconciliation, that's nice, but the burden is on them. It's always good to treat people as individuals worthy of respect, rather than to write them off like you're doing now (which I mention because that seems to be your concern), but it's only really possible to do that when you are secure in yourself; and once you are secure, if you're a decent person (which you certainly seem to be), it tends to come pretty naturally.

Let me leave you with this: I'm Christian, and I get nervous too when I meet someone and I find out they are Christian, because I never know, a priori, whether they are Christian in the sense of being humble, meek, non-judgmental, poor in spirit, merciful peacemakers, or in the sense of being jerks who hide behind a book to attempt to excuse their hatred.

  

Need I have to remind everyone of the TOS.  Rule 10 covers Religious groups as well

Quote from: Rule 10.Bashing or flaming of any individuals or groups is not acceptable behavior on this web site and will not be tolerated in the slightest for any reason.  This includes but is not limited to:

• Advocating the separation or exclusion of one or more group from under the Transgender umbrella term
• Suggesting or claiming that one segment or sub-segment of our community is more legitimate, deserving, or more real than any others

Also I am moving this to the Spirituality Section.

Quote from: Rule 16.Please limit religious discussions to the spirituality forum. If a thread in another forum turns into a religious discussion please move the thread to the spirituality forum. Our moderators will assist in this process if necessary. (This term does not apply to chat)

Ugh how they treated you is friggin disgusting.

I am still a Christian but the line of Christianity I speak of is not the mainstream.....the churches I go to are LGBT affirming and just trying to love everyone.

That being said, my church and parents and ex-wife caused me to be really worried about coming out to Christians.

My company at work was founded by a fundamentalist christian so I was very surprised when he was totally fine with my transition. It's kind of touch and go but I do agree that the majority of these "fundementalist christians" are usually bad news for us......

Quote from: Jerica on March 09, 2011, 06:50:13 PM
Ugh how they treated you is friggin disgusting.

I am still a Christian but the line of Christianity I speak of is not the mainstream.....the churches I go to are LGBT affirming and just trying to love everyone.

That being said, my church and parents and ex-wife caused me to be really worried about coming out to Christians.

My company at work was founded by a fundamentalist christian so I was very surprised when he was totally fine with my transition. It's kind of touch and go but I do agree that the majority of these "fundementalist christians" are usually bad news for us......

i think i remember a thread you made a while back. your mom doesn't want anything to do with you now because she said you were a "prodigal" son, but you "abandoned" them from transitioning. is that right?

Quote from: SpaceyGirl on March 09, 2011, 06:57:09 PM
i think i remember a thread you made a while back. your mom doesn't want anything to do with you now because she said you were a "prodigal" son, but you "abandoned" them from transitioning. is that right?

Yeah both my parents disowned me that way....until I come back to them "the prodigal son"....in other words, as a man.

Not going to happen.

But yeah my mom is constantly saying I walked away from THEM. Drives me nutso

Quote from: Jerica on March 10, 2011, 12:29:47 AM
Yeah both my parents disowned me that way....until I come back to them "the prodigal son"....in other words, as a man.

Not going to happen.

But yeah my mom is constantly saying I walked away from THEM. Drives me nutso

Wow ... way to completely misread that particular parable. And here I thought it was supposed to be encouraging people to be forgiving, not judgmental jerks.

People can belief whatever they want, and I don't think that anyone wants to stop that.  What people are asking for is that if this is to be the basis of society, as it has been for over 2,000 years now, we need more than taking the word of some of the people on the 'faith' that they - and they alone - are right with the understanding that none of it can be proven.

Scientific knowledge and understanding have expanded our views both in micro as well as in macro perspectives and in all of that not one shred, not one iota, not a sintillia or a speck of information - not a nano-smudge of anything - ANYTHING (and everything) - has in any way, shape or form proven any of the Christian (or Mormon, or Islamic) cosmology to be true.  There simply is after all this investigation still nothing more than faith and faith alone with which to accept these stories.

Doesn't it bother you at some itsy, bitty, tinsy-winesy level that absolutely everything we have learned about the planet, the universe and ourselves in no way, shape or form seems to back any of cosmology or explanations that Christianity (or CJCoLDS, or Islam) professes?

The claim of truth about sin, original sin, redemption, salvation, the fall, the flood, the parting of the Red Sea, heaven and hell, good and evil, as a fundamental basis for society and moral order and as a touchstone for modern decisions in the modern world has to rely on something more firmly rooted in reality and rationality then the basic Christian narrative.  For that to continue the Christians need to come up with something more convincing than just their word for it because they read it in a book.


Wait, how can I be talking about faith on a purely scientific subject, isn't it reserved only for religious people? Absolutely not. I have faith that the people who tell me the earth is round are telling me the truth even though I don't have the evidence myself. I have faith because I do not know of myself - I have faith because I do know with complete certainty that they are not lying to me.

You don't have to take it on faith.  That's what makes it science and not religion.  You can in any number of places actually see the curvature of the earth (airplanes, mountains, coastlines, the Salt Flats).  You can extrapolate like Columbus did about the way a ship disappears on the horizon line, or look in the sky and see that 'round' is the basic shape - indeed the only shape - for viable planets.  You can do measurements and work the math.  You can also just look at the pictures.  Here's a bunch of them.  I mean it takes the effort to do it, Science is lot of work and thought.  But that work is there to be done and you too can arrive at the same results that everyone else did time after time.
http://www.google.com/images?q=nasa+earth+photos&um=1&ie=UTF-8&source=univ&sa=X&ei=U9h4TYFEjaKxA9mEyZID&ved=0CDAQsAQ&biw

I try to avoid religious discussions as I find they tend to devolve into something unproductive rather quickly.

Since the original post was about hate, being harmed and how to overcome this I'd like to suggest something non-religious.

Michael Nagler webcast his course on non-violence through UC Berkeley and it is available to download for free (legally):

http://webcast.berkeley.edu/course_details.php?seriesid=1906978360

He also has a book but the book is mostly covered by the podcasts.

I personally feel that there are a lot of useful things that can be learned from the non-violence movement.

Take what you need and leave the rest.

I'm going to try and refrain from entering a debate as I really don't like religion especially the abrahamic ones. For me I can like a religious person but not their beliefs. A lot of people moan and say you have to respect other peoples beliefs but I think that's crap, should I respect a racists view? a homophobes view? no but does me not liking their views stop me for treating them with respect, no it doesn't.

Anyway I think it's wrong to tar a whole group of people with one brush, sure parts of the bible are pretty vile but that doesn't mean christians are, many christians differ on what parts of the bible they accept and because of this christians are a very wide group of people.

The thing to remember is that there are good and bad people in every group of people, my dad for instance is an atheist yet because of me being trans he wants nothing to do with me and my mum is catholic and 100% accepts me.

This will probably be my last post in this thread.

Quote from: tekla on March 10, 2011, 11:18:35 AM
People can belief whatever they want, and I don't think that anyone wants to stop that.  What people are asking for is that if this is to be the basis of society, as it has been for over 2,000 years now, we need more than taking the word of some of the people on the 'faith' that they - and they alone - are right with the understanding that none of it can be proven.

That might be what you're asking for, and that's fine, but that's not what the original poster was asking for, and I think that discussion, while interesting in its own right, does nothing to help her with the issue she is facing now.

Hannah, thanks for the link. That looks interesting. And Nathan, thank you for your words, too. You seem to be doing well to balance justice and compassion in how you see others, by treating people as individuals rather than as representatives of some group.

This thread has run it course.  Many of our Christian Brothers and Sisters are upset and it is time for this to go away.