I'm not quite sure how to describe this, but since I've been allowing all this to open up in me, I feel like I'm turning from a bi man into a bi woman (and yes, the experience is quite different, as well as similar) - the main obvious difference is in my attractions and fantasies, where I'm now relating to men and women both sexually and romantically not as a man, but as a woman - which is quite a new experience, but which feels very natural, and is making my manparts feel very irrelevant.

I guess this makes me realise that even though some people seem to "know for certain" that they're in the wrong body for their gender from early on in life, for some of us who take more time to let it come up to our surface, there's an experience of change of orientation (a "turning around in my own being") that runs alongside the physical change in the course of transition. My experience of myself is changing rapidly, and I haven't even begun HRT or anything yet - so this whole gender/sexual orientation spectrum may be way more broad and fluid than it seems, at least for me.

Oh, and it's totally starting to make sense at last why I keep falling for women who turn out to be lesbians (but given the furore that's been seen here before now, I wouldn't dream of using the L word to describe myself before I've transitioned!)

It's also making more sense of the experience I've been having looking at porn. At first, I thought I was doing it to try to make sense of my sexual orientation - but now I can see that it's gender that's been more the issue, and it's the women in the pictures that I've been identifying with. That's why, even though I like watching men make out together (so long as there's none of this stupid staged degradation stuff), it felt like there was something missing!

[okay, that's embarrassing to have written about, but let it stand.]

Quote from: yoxi on March 23, 2011, 11:07:54 AM
... some people seem to "know for certain" that they're in the wrong body for their gender from early on in life,

I have a strong male side and I can see that as maybe the reason why for you   Even though I knew several times completely I'm female it's more like "this is who I am completely"  forget even thinking in gender terms, the feeling of completeness is what counted, only looking at it is it clearly female behaviour, but first and foremost it is my behaviour forget gender.

"I'm female!" that would be like the male side didn't exist at all, and who would be making the observation?  I have the answer finally.

I'm experiencing this pretty much entirely in my "somatic self" - my sense of body. It's a very immediate physical sensation, with an emotional response to that, and then a rational "quick, let's get this all figured out and pinned down!" reaction to that going on on top of it. This last one, the rational one, is the one I have to make the effort to contain, as the other ones seem much more fundamental, intuitive, and clear - it's only because they're relatively unfamiliar (because they've been carefully repressed for decades in order to keep me feeling "safe") that my rational mind is trying hard to tidy up the new experience. But I don't want tidiness, I want authenticity, and I have all the time that takes, even though I'm having to fight off the rational urge to hurry and come in to land in a new version of myself.

I have never felt so happy in my life. And when I feel doubt and self-undermining creeping in under this, it's because I'm thinking things like "...but how can I be this, when I don't want the same things as <insert random other transfolks' experience here>??" So yes, I'm trying to settle into a sense of who I am and what I want to be like and be doing, if there were no-one else to compare myself to. And the more I do this, the more apparent it is that the person I want to be is very similar to the person I am now - except with a different body. For me, it's not about passing as anyone except myself (who may end up looking no more* than gender-ambiguous, what with the whole "6'3" and big feet and missing muscles thing I've got going on, and that's going to be fine if that's where I end up).

I don't have a bad relationship with my male aspect - in fact, it's through getting into a really positive relationship with myself that this femaleness has risen up out of the depths. I just feel that I've spent my life so far trying to be something that I'm not, and I'll be happier when I move on to being what I am more. And it doesn't even feel like a choice: I'm changing, will-nilly, and I can either resist that, or try to pick it up and run with it - or I can take the middle ground and let it lead me gently forward.

Right now (as in the last couple of days or so) my attention has been on the sexuality aspect of it, simply because that's what's been changing most in my awareness over the last few days. Meanwhile, the things I was all caught up with a few days before that have settled down and feel clearer - so I expect this is what will happen with my sense of sexuality/orientation. I'm loving this fluidity and novelty, and the feeling that what seems novel is (as soon as I look back through my memories) right there, all the way back, just a shift of perspective needed to see it clearly all along.

I can't wait to see what happens next... (well, laser de-bearding next week, for a start!)

*and by "more" I mean "more different from where I started", not "more female is better than less female".

  Wow, Yoxi.... I went through something like this awhile back... It's refreshing to know that I'm not alone in feeling the way I do.

   I was with a woman for 18 years, married for 9 of them. I truly loved her.... but it's taken me a long time to realize that I loved her as a woman myself.. and that's why it took so much work to maintain that relationship. It never really worked the way it should because my wife was straight... VERY straight. I could never be what she wanted or needed because I wasn't really a guy.

   I've ALWAYS considered myself Bisexual... Hell, I've always been attracted to both. Until I began transition, it was difficult to reconcile my sexuality because I never tried a real relationship with someone as ME. Early in my social transition I wound up in a relationship with a man.. It wasn't the healthiest but it made me realize that it felt natural to love a man.... So natural that now, being attracted to other women feels more taboo.

Quote from: yoxi on March 23, 2011, 11:07:54 AM
I'm not quite sure how to describe this, but since I've been allowing all this to open up in me, I feel like I'm turning from a bi man into a bi woman (and yes, the experience is quite different, as well as similar) - the main obvious difference is in my attractions and fantasies, where I'm now relating to men and women both sexually and romantically not as a man, but as a woman - which is quite a new experience, but which feels very natural, and is making my manparts feel very irrelevant.

I guess this makes me realise that even though some people seem to "know for certain" that they're in the wrong body for their gender from early on in life, for some of us who take more time to let it come up to our surface, there's an experience of change of orientation (a "turning around in my own being") that runs alongside the physical change in the course of transition. My experience of myself is changing rapidly, and I haven't even begun HRT or anything yet - so this whole gender/sexual orientation spectrum may be way more broad and fluid than it seems, at least for me.

Oh, and it's totally starting to make sense at last why I keep falling for women who turn out to be lesbians (but given the furore that's been seen here before now, I wouldn't dream of using the L word to describe myself before I've transitioned!)

I wish I could verbalize my thoughts as elequantly as you Yoxi, but uhmm Ditto? 

<3 Teagan

Well, thanks - I'm sneakily using this forum as my surrogate best friend at the moment to talk this stuff out, so it's kind of like stealth-blogging .

One of the things I'm finding so supportive about visiting here is that, because there's such a broad range of people with different experiences, I keep finding others who can say "ditto" when I say "I have this thing happening" - that's such a relief.

By the way Teagan, I've been dipping into Tegan & Bella lately - I like their just-them-and-guitars stuff.

JessicaR, I know what you mean - I've been in a number of relationships with women, and never felt right, but until recently I attributed that to other issues. Now it's so obvious that I wanted to be with them as a woman - I've actually been thinking back over my past relationships and imagining myself there with them as a woman, and it's been blowing my mind. I think there's only one of them that would actually have worked with, and she's the one I was really in love with and who was really comfortable with me being bi and "gendercurious" (ironic new term? ) - but right now she's having a baby in Scotland, so that's not a goer!

And, to be frank, though I enjoy sex a lot, I've never been comfortable with actually ->-bleeped-<-ing someone, whether it was women or men, and could never figure out why before now.

This male/female thing is intriguing - it isn't that I want to rid myself of my maleness, or that I hate it or anything, it's more like one of those weathervane things with the man and the woman who come out depending on the weather! So it's like the woman me has just risen up out if the depths and said "okay, it's my turn now" and the man has just gone to sleep. I'm grateful to him for getting me here, but now there's something else going on instead.

Hi Yoxi,

Nothing wrong with having in depth discussions on the forums, we all learn from them . I've been married for coming on 29 years, but I haven't been sexually (male)  active for about 20 of them. The relationship  was fine but due to health issues which are in other threads it is now one of love and support in her final days. I have never been attracted to guys. But I have been regularly hit on by guys throughout my life. I have always been gentle and caring in telling them that I'm not interested, but since being on HRT, I'm definitely interested, in fact I find myself getting quite embarrassed by guy watching . Then of course looking at a magazine at some beautiful woman and thinking, I love that dress, wonder if I can do my eyes like that.

I remember being in the tea room with some guys (I'm not out at work - fully- and they were commenting about a UK model called Jordan (?) she seems to have massively enhanced breasts. Well the guys were making "Oh wish I could whatever with her".  comments; while I just thought she looked ridiculous. I didn't say anything though .

I think one of the things about being on this forum is that we do hear honest comment and discussion and it does allow us to think. We are a forum therapist?

Cindy

Heh, it took me a while to figure out that watching lesbian porn wasn't a turn-on, it was wish-fulfilment . Seriously, I find it more moving emotionally than arousing (though now that I'm more in tune with what's going on under my bonnet*, it's arousing too ).

I'm feeling quite vulnerable and exposed around men at the moment, well, men that I find attractive, because before now, I'd be responding to them as a gay/bi man, I thought, and something there didn't quite click - and now I feel myself wanting to be much more "receptive" and it makes me feel like I'm 15 again, for goodness' sake. I have this very strong memory of meeting a didgeridoo player in Bristol (who was taller than me) when I worked at the museum, and us having a jam together in the museum lobby (I'm a percussionist). He came round to my house afterwards and we played some more, and when we said goodbye, he suddenly gave me this huge hug, and I felt like that bit in Amelie where she melts all over the bar floor. That's the only time I've been at all intimate with someone taller than me (I'm pretty tall) and it always seems like people want me to be the big guy who protects them - I'd like just for once to be enveloped by someone bigger than me! Good grief, I had no idea I was going to write any of that. Oh well, it is spring, after all (at least in this hemisphere).

*for the record, I haven't worn a bonnet since the 80's... and Americans would probably say "under my hood" which is just as ambiguous!

Quote from: yoxi on March 24, 2011, 03:28:38 AM
Heh, it took me a while to figure out that watching lesbian porn wasn't a turn-on, it was wish-fulfilment

Snap!

I got quite mixed up with my sexuality in my teens, it took me from the age of 12 to 19 to figure out that I wasn't a gay man and that my attraction to women was as another woman. The mistake i made was thinking that I could play the straight role, but sex never quite felt right. I spent years knowing I was female and a lesbian and trying to get it to work. I have to admit my first experience of being with another girl who saw and percieved me as female was a real eye opener. Okay there was a lot of confusion due the obvious, but in the end that made things more fun.

Strange thing is, I now realise I'm a bi woman.

That's it, ennit - in the end, you just fancy individuals that you meet, and they might be anything - men women, none of the above... the transman (that's how he wanted to be identified) that I got together with for a while last year I met through a dating website, and I was drawn to his fantastic smile before I read his profile and found out we had loads in common - and the trans factor was relatively irrelevant to me being attracted to him, even though it was very relevant in other ways, and something of a catalyst for what's happening now.

Bi is a very handy shorthand for what I am (in terms of other people having some idea what it means!), but "polysexual" feels more accurate, especially after meeting that fella. I'm just attracted to certain individuals, and their gender is not a primary factor in that - it's all about eyes and smile (well, maybe not all...) .

Quote from: yoxi on March 24, 2011, 03:28:38 AM
Heh, it took me a while to figure out that watching lesbian porn wasn't a turn-on, it was wish-fulfilment .

Yes! Exactly this.

For me, I actually knew this long before I started this or accepted what it really meant. I wouldn't wish to be with them, or just find the scene arousing, I wished I was one of them.

It's funny what denial can do to you. As direct as that thought was, I still never connected the dots.

Quote from: yoxi on March 23, 2011, 05:47:17 PM
I have never felt so happy in my life. And when I feel doubt and self-undermining creeping in under this, it's because I'm thinking things like "...but how can I be this, when I don't want the same things as <insert random other transfolks' experience here>??"

People come in vastly vastly different types I wouldn't even worry about not fitting what anyone else experiences

Quote from: yoxi on March 23, 2011, 05:47:17 PM
So yes, I'm trying to settle into a sense of who I am and what I want to be like and be doing, if there were no-one else to compare myself to. And the more I do this, the more apparent it is that the person I want to be is very similar to the person I am now - except with a different body.

That is basically it, allowing expression not fundamental psychic change, infact it's a common experience we've all tried to fundamentally change who we are, it doesn't work in the end, we are who we are.

Quote from: yoxi on March 23, 2011, 05:47:17 PM
For me, it's not about passing as anyone except myself (who may end up looking no more* than gender-ambiguous, what with the whole "6'3" and big feet and missing muscles thing I've got going on, and that's going to be fine if that's where I end up).

6' 3" pfft I'm 'only' 5' 10" and I meet at least one woman who towers over me every day, being oneself that's it spot on.

Quote from: yoxi on March 23, 2011, 05:47:17 PM
I don't have a bad relationship with my male aspect - in fact, it's through getting into a really positive relationship with myself that this femaleness has risen up out of the depths. I just feel that I've spent my life so far trying to be something that I'm not, and I'll be happier when I move on to being what I am more. And it doesn't even feel like a choice: I'm changing, will-nilly, and I can either resist that, or try to pick it up and run with it - or I can take the middle ground and let it lead me gently forward.

My strong male aspect does the right thing regardless then my female side always concilliates.  Looking at it, for me "doing the right thing" in the truest sense is a female approach usually but it can be male (extreme situations).  Take the three stains I pursued for shouting "baldy" at someone who had a little kid with them in the street, (I'm thinning myself :/ lol), me and these cretins had alittle altercation one ended up calling me a gentleman at the end lol!, my male side doesn't exist beyond the initial burst, if I had too yes I would physically fight such people, but it's not the right thing to do in that situation Edit:  I don't want to fight them it's as simple as that, they were fairly young early 20's I was compelled to show them someone is going to stand up to them.  My male side feels slightly soiled, but my female simply consolidates in the long run the mix is right I think.  It's a mixture, the female cares more, sees a much bigger picture and admits she can't see the entire picture.

It's the admission of weakness that makes me strongest, it's a very female thing imo.

Quote from: yoxi on March 23, 2011, 05:47:17 PM
Right now (as in the last couple of days or so) my attention has been on the sexuality aspect of it, simply because that's what's been changing most in my awareness over the last few days. Meanwhile, the things I was all caught up with a few days before that have settled down and feel clearer - so I expect this is what will happen with my sense of sexuality/orientation. I'm loving this fluidity and novelty

I can't wait to see what happens next... (well, laser de-bearding next week, for a start!)

Physical, mental, sexual I've been going through the same process    Everyone does/is

I got my referral today She's really nice on the phone, OBE no less OoOOo lol   I rememberyou saying  you're moving down dorset way?  I wouldn't worry a second about telling the GP, I went for a female doctor, I used their automated service to book her, felt weird asking for a female doctor, this is crazy I'm in my mid 30s haha  Social retraints cripple me, I'd have got there eventally no matter what though.

I need to save alittle money for my first laser session it wont be long though

We'll all get to finish like I think   ( Strange thing is I even think of the finish line as a male idea and I'm trying to think of an alternative to saying it even though it's good lol.)   A place where we are happy with ourselves yes!  Life is a long journey of discovery and being true to ourselves

Quote from: yoxi on March 24, 2011, 01:13:25 PM
transman

I'm a fan completely and utterly

The only reason I ever slept with women is because I wanted to be THEM! I guess I've always been "gay" but never really wanted to do anything with men until after I started living as a woman.. I really have no interest in women sexually now that I am one. Not sure exactly what I am, I do find I like feminine type men? Who knows why? lol

Stephe,  I look at some women and it's a feeling of a shared situation and a deep desire to emulate.  I love that feeling, it's at the very core of my being

Men with a feminine side crossing over to non-op MtFs, hot is what i say, smoking hot   Yet to be sexually intimate, to get me going , I'm bodily a woman (and I'm working on that.)