I'm fine with being a trap.. It's the thought that counts. If I think I'm a boy, I'm a boy. A lot of cis-people get their gender mistaken; you just have to correct it.

It's common nowadays for men to look feminine and for woman to look masculine, so whatever.

It's an innocent mistake. I'm pretty sure most people wouldn't think twice if you just corrected them.   

I doubt most people are going to discriminate much against you if you don't pass. 

Well, say that when you're pinned up to the wall in a mens bathroom.

Passing is a great feeling at first but then it comes down to safety.

I'm a girl, I want people to see me as a girl.  It's upsetting to be constantly 'sir'd by employees and treated like 'one of the guys' by people I don't know.

Discrimination can be annoying or devastating.  It all depends who does it.  If you're trying to get a seat at a local restaurant and the owner denies you, then it's annoying.  If you're looking for a job or a place to live, then it can be devastating.

Society is still very bi-gendered.  Emphasize "VERY".  Most people's minds go to wild, absurd images when they can't immediately determine gender.  Even more so when they know you've crossed genders.  Remember, the average IQ is something like 93.  That means about half the people fall below that mark.  If they aren't prone to learning they are probably prone to irrational behavior when confronted with something foreign to them. (Rule of 93)  The irrational is magnified with some of the Jerry Springer fan-types and irrational behavior cannot be accurately predicted.  Shoot first, ask questions later.

Now, if you find yourself pinned up against the wall in the mens bathroom, odds are you broke a male rule of engagement.  Unless you outed yourself or simply cannot pass, you probably made some sort of contact with the guy, even just a sidelong glance, and he's bigger than you.  BIG NO-NO!  In the mens bathroom you walk in, do your business and walk out.  You may be able to get away with light conversation while washing your hands but for the most part you should NEVER make contact.  It's a very difference experience from the womens bathroom.  Think battlefront when entering a mens bathroom.  And BTW, the Rule of 93 applies here too.

Quote from: Julie Marie on March 25, 2011, 08:01:40 AM
Discrimination can be annoying or devastating.  It all depends who does it.  If you're trying to get a seat at a local restaurant and the owner denies you, then it's annoying.  If you're looking for a job or a place to live, then it can be devastating.

Society is still very bi-gendered.  Emphasize "VERY".  Most people's minds go to wild, absurd images when they can't immediately determine gender.  Even more so when they know you've crossed genders.  Remember, the average IQ is something like 93.  That means about half the people fall below that mark.  If they aren't prone to learning they are probably prone to irrational behavior when confronted with something foreign to them. (Rule of 93)  The irrational is magnified with some of the Jerry Springer fan-types and irrational behavior cannot be accurately predicted.  Shoot first, ask questions later.

Now, if you find yourself pinned up against the wall in the mens bathroom, odds are you broke a male rule of engagement.  Unless you outed yourself or simply cannot pass, you probably made some sort of contact with the guy, even just a sidelong glance, and he's bigger than you.  BIG NO-NO!  In the mens bathroom you walk in, do your business and walk out.  You may be able to get away with light conversation while washing your hands but for the most part you should NEVER make contact.  It's a very difference experience from the womens bathroom.  Think battlefront when entering a mens bathroom.  And BTW, the Rule of 93 applies here too.

Well said.

Also, it didn't happen to me but I've heard horror stories about it. I never attempted to use a mens room until I started testosterone. I didn't want to cause a scene. That, and an FTM friend got the ->-bleeped-<- kicked out of him badly by 3 or 4 guys outside of a bar. While they were kicking him they shouted "wtf are you?" So really, that's why passing matters. :/

Quote from: Ribbons on March 25, 2011, 07:15:52 AM
I doubt most people are going to discriminate much against you if you don't pass.

I agree with it all except this. If you're at the store or something and somebody gets it wrong either correct them or ignore it if you don't want to waste your time/energy on them. There is no "pass". People either get it right or they get it wrong.

Unfortunately there are still times when you may get attacked for it if someone thinks you don't fit typical gender patterns, either physically or otherwise, such as employment discrimination, especially if they do a background check (does anyone not these days?). Bathrooms are another hazard zone; best to get in and out fast. I find that if you look busy, confident, in a hurry, and like you know exactly what you're doing most people will leave you alone. That applies to many situations. The worst thing you can do is appear vulnerable, fearful, or unsure. To some people that signals that something is wrong or that you're trying to get away with something. To others it  makes you look like prey.

Quote from: Ribbons on March 25, 2011, 07:15:52 AM
I'm fine with being a trap.. It's the thought that counts. If I think I'm a boy, I'm a boy. A lot of cis-people get their gender mistaken; you just have to correct it.

It's common nowadays for men to look feminine and for woman to look masculine, so whatever.

It's an innocent mistake. I'm pretty sure most people wouldn't think twice if you just corrected them.   

I doubt most people are going to discriminate much against you if you don't pass.

  Your sentiment is refreshing.... but very naive.

  There are many who HATE transgender people.... hate enough to say and do things they normally wouldn't.

  I'm sorry to be so blunt but.... your attitude could get you killed.

From an experience during early transition:  "Check that out.... does that have an adam's apple? Heh.... maybe it should be careful walking to it's car... never know what might happen to one of those".... <four guys laughing>
 

As much as I know I'm a woman.....it still matters to me that people recognize and acknowledge me as such.

But everyone is different.

^ This.
I avoid going out as much as possible and when I do, it's almost always with at least one other guy. I've been paranoid my whole life and coming out has only exacerbated it.

I realize that there's a lot of feminine guys out there, so if a store clerk hesitantly calls me a girl I can live with it. What drives me up a wall is when I'm suffocating under two binders and swimming in clothes too big for me and STILL people are calling me a girl. That's when I start getting upset.

The only thing I can add is that passing is kind of a Bob Dylan deal.  Most people don't care in the least bit, but the ones who care, care a hell of a lot. 

I have never had a problem.  Ether I am very naive, very lucky or just always watch for things that could be out of the ordinary.  I think that I am watchful, which any woman should be.

It does matter for me.

Where I live trans women have been beaten and arrested for using the women's bathroom. There are no laws that prevent discrimination against transgender people. If I go to a resturaunt they can refuse to serve me if they read me as trans. I know of at least one trans fellow who used the men's bathroom at a bar after being very confident in his ability to be read as male (he had a large amount of facial hair). He was beaten and raped for being read as trans. He couldn't report it to the police because he didn't want to out himself, and on top of that dealing with ignorant police officers won't help.

I was denied a job for the way I express my gender, and the way I identify. I've been thrown out of clubs for using the men's bathroom. I've been refused service in a hospital's ER because I was "too masculine." So, yes. In many places and in many situations passing can be very important.

Quote from: Nygeel on March 27, 2011, 12:13:19 AM
It does matter for me.

Where I live trans women have been beaten and arrested for using the women's bathroom. There are no laws that prevent discrimination against transgender people. If I go to a resturaunt they can refuse to serve me if they read me as trans. I know of at least one trans fellow who used the men's bathroom at a bar after being very confident in his ability to be read as male (he had a large amount of facial hair). He was beaten and raped for being read as trans. He couldn't report it to the police because he didn't want to out himself, and on top of that dealing with ignorant police officers won't help.

I was denied a job for the way I express my gender, and the way I identify. I've been thrown out of clubs for using the men's bathroom. I've been refused service in a hospital's ER because I was "too masculine." So, yes. In many places and in many situations passing can be very important.

That's so wrong. It doesn't surprise me but still, it's just...man. There's something seriously wrong with people. That's scary as hell, I can't believe they'd deny you medical service even.

Quote from: N.Chaos on March 27, 2011, 12:33:41 AM
That's so wrong. It doesn't surprise me but still, it's just...man. There's something seriously wrong with people. That's scary as hell, I can't believe they'd deny you medical service even.

All of it is wrong, yet all of it is true. I don't live in the bible belt. I don't live in a state that's considered conservative yet crap like that happens.

Quote from: Ribbons on March 25, 2011, 07:15:52 AMIt's an innocent mistake. I'm pretty sure most people wouldn't think twice if you just corrected them.   

I doubt most people are going to discriminate much against you if you don't pass.

I guess you've never been driven out of the women's restroom by a freaked-out gal who is so sure that a guy has infiltrated her space that she heads for security, or another women's restroom. Or the men's room for that matter, because she's so sure that she must have stumbled into the gents' by mistake that she turns around and heads straight into the men's room without reading the sign. Or she's so sure that I'm going into the wrong place that she actually bars the doorway with her own body, thus making it impossible for me to enter without getting physical--or lifting up my shirt. And so on.

Of course, these women were right: there WAS a guy in their restroom. A guy with boobs, a front hole, and a high voice.

Around here nobody seems to care much generally, but then I won't be going into a pub at night in some areas either.  At least there are legal protections here for transpeople amongst others, but then criminals are criminals because they break the law.

For the sake of all the people who have suffered over there, I'd love to grab "American Society" by the collar and say, "listen, if your best friends can't tell you that you have excruciating body odour, who can.  For goodness sake, wash the 17th Century off, mate!"

Karen.

There is no 'American Society' there are "American Societies' plural.  Several of them.

No it doesn't matter to me...as long as people don't say anything rude. I longboard and need to wear functional clothing, which by it's nature is fairly androgynous, so I go out and about in the full knowledge that I may be mis-gendered, but I don't care. The fact is that I don't get mis-gendered but that's not the point.

On the phone I occasionally get misgendered, but I just pass it off with a quick "oh you wouldn't believe how often that happens" They always just apologise.

If you make a big deal of it it just makes people suspicious of what you have to hide.

It would matter greatly to me, probably because I depend to much upon the validation of others. 

Quote from: Nygeel on March 27, 2011, 12:13:19 AM
It does matter for me.

Where I live trans women have been beaten and arrested for using the women's bathroom. There are no laws that prevent discrimination against transgender people. If I go to a resturaunt they can refuse to serve me if they read me as trans. I know of at least one trans fellow who used the men's bathroom at a bar after being very confident in his ability to be read as male (he had a large amount of facial hair). He was beaten and raped for being read as trans. He couldn't report it to the police because he didn't want to out himself, and on top of that dealing with ignorant police officers won't help.

I was denied a job for the way I express my gender, and the way I identify. I've been thrown out of clubs for using the men's bathroom. I've been refused service in a hospital's ER because I was "too masculine." So, yes. In many places and in many situations passing can be very important.

that sounds a little too much like what black people went through in the 1950's. to us, it sounds so stupid about what you say happened to you at the ER. that they actually have gendered standards for who they treat in an emergency room. sadly, those people are so pathetic, that they actually believe it's their responsibility.


why don't we start a "NAATP"