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Does it honestly matter whether you pass as your gender or not?

Started by Ribbons, March 25, 2011, 07:15:52 AM

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piers816

I think it's worse when I don't pass. Being in high school, it's pretty rough if I'm perceived as female by passerby students. Mostly it's anti-LGB comments, and thankfully it's never gotten physical, but sometimes I'm scared of what could happen if someone sees me as male and finds out that I'm biologically female.

Trans, along with all LGBTQ people, are at a great risk of being bashed. After my friend was gay bashed, I was terrified, even though we live in different cities.

So, yes, passing is a big deal and it does matter to me.
there is life in every breath you take
and there is hope with every move you make
and every single mistake you think you've made.
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Arch

Quote from: Ribbons on March 25, 2011, 07:15:52 AMI doubt most people are going to discriminate much against you if you don't pass.

Why should anybody discriminate against us? Frankly, I think one is too many.
"The hammer is my penis." --Captain Hammer

"When all you have is a hammer . . ." --Anonymous carpenter
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Nikolai_S

In an urban setting, I generally like to pass, but the longer I'm on testosterone the less I'm actively concerned about it. I pass to myself, and that's what matters. I'm okay with being perceived as androgynous, I'm genderqueer and I like to express it when the situation allows. Most of the time, I'll never run into the same people often enough that it matters how they perceive me. Bathrooms make me most nervous when I'm in a city, and that's definitely a safety issue.

In a rural setting, like where I live, I feel like I need to pass. I don't want to do anything that makes me stand out, including confusing people in regard to my gender. Pre-T I looked and sounded like a very feminine guy, and I happened to be wearing a necklace one day - you would not believe the glares I got when I was minding my own business browsing shops. One woman refused to move out of my way when I tried to pass and she referred to me as "it" to her friend. I don't feel safe appearing either a feminine man or a masculine woman, just being out as gay is a scary concept to me here. As soon as I can, I'm going somewhere where I don't sense impending doom.
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pretty pauline

Quote from: Jerica on March 26, 2011, 11:44:19 PM
As much as I know I'm a woman.....it still matters to me that people recognize and acknowledge me as such.

But everyone is different.
Absolutely agree, it matters to me that people except, recognize and acknowledge me as a woman.
p
If your going thru hell, just keep going.
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Sarah B

Years ago I changed everything that was possible at the time to make sure that I gave nobody any reason not to suspect that I was a female and I have lived and worked as female ever since.  I have not gone through what I have gone through to be thought of anything less than a female.  So to answer the original question in the context it was asked.

Does it honestly matter whether you pass as your gender or not?

Yes, it matters very much to me and it is imperative that remains so and I will take care of anything that will jeopardise that.

However, having said that, I don't pass and I'm not in stealth, never have been and I never will be because, I get up in the morning, go to work interact with my colleagues, come home, take care of my family and friends and go to bed.  In other words I'm living my life as any other female does in similar circumstances and as such, people accept, recognise and acknowledge me as such.  Just as I accept, recognise and acknowledge other peoples gender.  Because not to would make me a hypocrite.

Kind regards
Sarah B
Be who you want to be.
Sarah's Story
Feb 1989 Living my life as Sarah.
Feb 1989 Legally changed my name.
Mar 1989 Started hormones.
May 1990 Three surgery letters.
Feb 1991 Surgery.
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PixieBoy

To me, passing is important, but it's not everything. What's important is that I feel at home with myself, and not like I'm wearing a masquerade suit all the time. I want people to accept, respect and acknowledge me as a guy, because I am a guy. However, if some random stranger in the street thinks I'm a girl, I don't really care. It's they who are mistaken, not me.
...that fey-looking freak kid with too many books and too much bodily fat
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insideontheoutside

Personally, I feel a lot of people give themselves needless worry and stress on the "do I pass" thing. If you are confident in who you are, that confidence will show on the outside too and it really can just be a simple matter of correcting someone who might get it wrong (only if you choose to correct them and in certain situations). Even if you have to still live your life as male and you're really female or vice versa, if you know who you are on the inside you can develop an inner confidence in yourself that will show on the outside.

Before everyone reiterates the safety thing, let me expand on safety myself.

I pretty much grew up in Los Angeles. Anyway, I've been all over that city over the years. I used to go to raves in abandoned buildings down on Gage. I used to eat chicken and waffles at Rosco's (and I used to live a couple miles from there and sometimes walk down there). I used to bring my camera and take photos downtown, all over Hollywood, and in parts of the L.A. river (for those of you unfamiliar with the L.A. "river" it's all concrete and in some areas covered with amazing graffiti). In all the years I lived there, I was never f**cked with except for one isolated incident in my own apartment ... and I've been female, male and in-between. I'm no where near physically imposing. I'm white and 5'3" and even in guy mode can still be taken as a female sometimes. I've had friends that lived somewhere else and moved to L.A. and every one of them has had something happen to them - cars stolen, beaten up, mugged. I've known a number of people from there that have had problems. What I attribute my record of not having any problems to is not just attitude (which does go a long way - if you walk down the street confident, you do not make yourself an "easy" target) but awareness. I have absolutely, personally witnessed some very, very sketchy ->-bleeped-<- go down. There were places where I would rather piss in a bottle in my car than get out. There were places where I'd drive through a red light in my car rather than stop. There were places where I would walk down one street that was out of the way instead of talking a more direct route. Being totally aware of your surroundings and the people in those surrounding is a very key skill to cultivate - whether you live in the big city or not. Sometimes this does mean modifying your behavior. Some people might not be "cool" with this but I can tell you it's better to be aware and avoid a situation then be subjected to something bad going down. I've even been in a few occasions where there were not easy options to just avoid it. Luckily, I'm a damn good actor when I need to be. I've been to places where I walk in, and pretty much walk right out. I've always considered myself empathetic as well. If some place just has a weird vibe, I will avoid it. This includes bars, shops, restrooms, whatever. I know not everyone has a heightened sense of what might be impending doom but just getting familiar with your surroundings, other people's body language, etc. can literally be a life saver.

Some might totally call me a cop-out or a pussy or any other names because I'm not the "out and proud" type and I'm not beneath playing the part of the opposite gender if I know it would behoove me to do so in a particular situation. But I'm all about self-preservation just as much as I am about self-expression and just being yourself. But to me, safety takes precedence.

A few years ago I went to NYC for the first time. Everyone told me, oh you have to really watch yourself there! Really, I just behaved like I did when I lived in L.A. - I was totally aware of the surroundings - even though they were unfamiliar to me - and I walked with my head up like I knew exactly where I was going with confidence (even if I didn't!). I had other "tourists" asking me for directions. I was there for a couple weeks and every night I would walk a couple blocks from the hotel (which was between China Town and SoHo) to this 24 hr market and get some snacks or water. I saw the most amazing things at 1am in NYC. Giant rats. Crazy bums. People having arguments. Just a whole bunch of random stuff. There were a few times where I rode the subway late. I caught on pretty quickly to subway etiquette though and even when there was the crazy guy who was trying to get in people's faces I managed to get through the experience unscathed. I'd totally go to NYC again in a heartbeat.

And I know that even with being aware and confident, things can still happen. But I feel like at least the odds are lower and I really do believe in the power of the mind. There's also been a number of studies having to do with criminals and victims. Criminals have come right out and said they specifically look for "easy pray" - that is the people walking with their heads down at the ground, unaware of their surroundings, people who were obviously nervous or "out of place", people fumbling for their keys ... The majority of criminals or people bent on doing others harm seem to have a sixth sense and are able to spot those easy targets. They're able to "smell fear" and things like that. If you're ever in or around a dangerous situation the worst thing you can do is appear nervous or fearful or freak out.

I hope that no one here has to deal with a dangerous situation but I hope that these few tips might help out just in your general life - to me more aware of your surroundings and situations that have the potential to be a problem.
"Let's conspire to ignite all the souls that would die just to feel alive."
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lightvi

As long as I'm comfortable in my own skin, that's all that matters to me. If I pass to other people is my secondary objective in transitioning.
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Padma

Seems to me from reading various threads on this forum that passing really matters to some people, and doesn't to others, and so the real question is not "does it really matter?" but "does it matter to you?" it's important that we don't universalise our own experiences or feel threatened by someone being different from us.

I've found myself thinking about this a lot, as I'm wondering what I would want to pass as if I want to pass. Talking to friends about my desire to transition, it's clear that some of them have an unconscious fixed idea of "looking like a woman" that's based around a very narrow-bandwidth idea of "what a woman looks like", so I keep having to point out the vast array of "looks" that women choose from, from what would be considered "very feminine" to what would be considered "very masculine" and all kinds of other scales too. My role models for how I think I'd like to end up looking all happen to be wiry lesbians (short hair, combat trousers kind of thing), and in some of my friends' eyes that doesn't constitute "passing as a woman" at all. At the moment (and this is before I've really begun transitioning) I don't think I care much what other people think, but that may change, as I change - how I want to look and be seen may change as I change.
Womandrogyneâ„¢
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Suzy

Perhaps one day I will be totally secure in myself. But for now all i can say is that it matters, and it matters a lot.  I rarely have problems, but I do not want to be discriminated against.  I do not want to be put in harm's way just because of natural bodily functions.  I do not want to be denied dressing rooms.  I don't want to be hassled by cops.  I don't even want to the be the object of whispers and glances.  On and on the list could go.  I think anyone who says these things don't matter is in denial.  Or maybe one day I will truly not care. I just doubt it.
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Arch

Speaking just for myself, if "passing" (I really hate that term, actually) didn't matter to me, I would not have medically transitioned. Of course, I didn't have a lot of choices. I don't think I would have lived much longer if I hadn't transitioned. I was emotionally exhausted.

Speculating about many, I suspect that most of us would have a hard freaking time living decade after decade and not being read as our true gender. Some of us don't make it.

And for those of us who did live that way for decades, well, let me go back to myself again. It can really do a number on us psychologically, and for me it did. In spades. I project confidence to the world now, but inside I'm still the little kid who wants his thirty-five-year-old father to call him "son" JUST ONCE, the adolescent who is mortified by what's happening to his body, and the young adult who resigned himself to being what everyone else perceived him to be. And, yes, the middle-aged guy who stared into the mirror one day and realized with profound despair, My god, I am forty-four, and I am going to die as a woman.

I carry all of that around with me, and the biggest reason I'm making any progress at all in combating it is that I PASS. A few people are quite content to just know who they are and be fine with that, regardless of how the millions see them. I'm not one of those people. Being treated as the man I am by other people makes all the difference in the world.
"The hammer is my penis." --Captain Hammer

"When all you have is a hammer . . ." --Anonymous carpenter
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piers816

I agree with everything Arch said.

Also, it feels even more important to me to pass after a recent incident when I didn't pass. Not passing around some people can lead to some pretty bad outcomes and I'm lucky the most I got was dirty looks and no confrontation - it could've ended much, much worse.
there is life in every breath you take
and there is hope with every move you make
and every single mistake you think you've made.
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crazyandro

It does matter to me--it matters a lot.  Because it really, really hurts when people read me wrong.  I can go on and on about how I should be confident in myself and it doesn't matter and I'll never see them again, as much as I want--but it still makes me feel like I've been punched in the gut.  Every.  Single.  Time.
Maybe someday I'll be confident enough that it won't matter.
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Lacey Lynne

Quote from: Kristi on March 29, 2011, 07:11:06 AM
Perhaps one day I will be totally secure in myself. But for now all i can say is that it matters, and it matters a lot.  I rarely have problems, but I do not want to be discriminated against.  i so not want to be put in harm's way just because of natural bodily functions.  I do not want to be denied dressing rooms.  I don't want to be hassled by cops.  I don't even want to the be the object of whispers and glances.  On and on the list could go.  I think anyone who says these things don't matter is in denial.  Or maybe one day I will truly not care. I just doubt it.

Everybody's replies are so interesting and right on. 

Kristi (quoted) and Julie Marie made comments that really resonate with me.  What you two said?  Ditto that here, girls.  So, so true.  Sigh.

Kristi has it so right in her quote as noted above.  Totally agree with you, hon.  That's "where I live" too.  You said it so well.  Thank you very much.

Julie Marie makes totally valid points.  What she said about the stupidity and violence of the masses is so sadly true.  It really is.  Face the facts.  Many of you know that transpeople generally are among the most intelligent groups, taken as a whole, in society being significantly brighter than the masses.  Some transfolks have about 100 IQ points over the average mass IQ that Julie Marie mentions.  Really. 

Transition cures our body and gender dysphoria.  How do we cure our violence and stupidity dysphoria?  The answer?  We don't.  How often have you felt like you are the only sane person in a group of nutsos?  Very often, I'd wager to say!  Therein lies the rub!  There is no escaping the asininity of the masses and you must do all you can to avoid their subsequent aggression. 

What a world.  No excuse or explanation that any god could possibly offer would suffice for just how whacked out it really is.  Even the whole Law of the Jungle trip in nature beggars belief.  What's the point?  Amazing beauty and transcendent hideousness mutually and eternally superimposed.  Duh? 

Then, we have to worry about punishment for eternity in some afterlife?  Like, whatever.

Sometimes, it really is too much.  Bogs you down.  Even transition cannot slake the appetite for sanity, balance and decency. 

Just my two-cents' worth.  Sorry to annoy you.  Just had to say this.

:P    Lacey Lynne
Believe.  Persist.  Arrive.    :D



Julie Vu (Princess Joules) Rocks!  "Hi, Sunshine Sparkle Faces!" she says!
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angiejuly

I live in a small town thats pretty good about us. It is important for me to see myself in the mirror. If I can not see me then how can I find someone to love someone they cannot see. I want to be seen and loved. I feel invisible and unloved now.   
We must value ourselves to our attributes and contributions to others and environment and not our ability to aquire monitery value through means of greed and backstabbing. In this system the greedy would eat what the dogs dont want.
a blog on truth,   http://angiejuly.blogspot.com/
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Lee

Just popping in to say I love you angie.  Keep your chin up.  :)
Oh I'm a lucky man to count on both hands the ones I love

A blah blog
http://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/board,365.0.html
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JessicaR

I heard a story that made me shudder.... I still can't get the image out of my head...

   Last year, a transgender man was read as trans in the mens room on a college campus in Southern California. Another man confronted, then attacked him; he pulled his shirt over his head and carved the word, "IT" on his chest with a knife.

  An experience I had last night made me realize how truly dangerous it is for us. Passing is important to me for a number of reasons but my safety (and my kids' safety) is why.



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EliNewGuy

Quote from: N.Chaos on March 26, 2011, 11:50:28 PM
I realize that there's a lot of feminine guys out there, so if a store clerk hesitantly calls me a girl I can live with it. What drives me up a wall is when I'm suffocating under two binders and swimming in clothes too big for me and STILL people are calling me a girl. That's when I start getting upset.

^This! 

I find as I embark on this process of blowing open and being more "me," that my reaction to not being "read" as male varies from "no problem" when I'm not trying to pass to near rage when I am trying.  Somehow, some part of my brain thought that once I cut my hair short, I was going to pass all the time.  :/  I'm still working through that...
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N.Chaos

Quote from: JessicaR on March 30, 2011, 08:12:58 PM
I heard a story that made me shudder.... I still can't get the image out of my head...

   Last year, a transgender man was read as trans in the mens room on a college campus in Southern California. Another man confronted, then attacked him; he pulled his shirt over his head and carved the word, "IT" on his chest with a knife.

  An experience I had last night made me realize how truly dangerous it is for us. Passing is important to me for a number of reasons but my safety (and my kids' safety) is why.

That's disgusting.
And everyone wonders why I'd rather just stay inside on 4chan as opposed to going out and all that BS. Even on those rare occasions where I'm NOT paranoid, I always feel this crawling kind of hatred towards everyone around me, thinking about incidents like that, realizing that if half of them really knew me they'd probably laugh in my face while I died.  Individual people are fine, small groups are fine, but people on the whole? Hate them. I have to be completely honest and admit here, knowing that most non-trans people will never feel this kind of terror, this kind of basic goddamn fear just to live...it makes me want to find the things that they do fear and traumatize them with it.
But that's me. I'm a hateful jerk. At least I keep it to myself, though. At least I've never tried to kill someone unprovoked.
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kyril

When presenting female, I refused to be controlled by the misogynistic ->-bleeped-<-s who make women afraid to leave their homes at night. I went where I pelased, when I pleased; I took long solo walks through dark parks at 3am, I stumbled home drunk across a university campus, I spent the night in my buddies' rooms. I accepted the risks that came with claiming that freedom, and in a few cases those risks became reality. But I refuse to regret it.

As a trans man, I refuse to be controlled by transphobes. I refuse to be excessively concerned about passing. On days when I want to be comfortable, I'm bloody well going to go out in nothing but a sports bra and a sweatshirt. Or even a T-shirt. I'm not going to move differently, talk differently, change who I am so that the transphobes can't spot me, any more than I changed who I was and what I wanted to do so the misogynists couldn't access me.

Not to say that I don't care at all about passing. But mainly, I care about it in the context of looking attractive. I want to look good, in a non-androgynous masculine sort of way, and that sort of requires passing. But with that as my motivation, I don't particularly care if I don't always pass.

My physical transition isn't mostly about what other people see. It's about 3 parts making my body feel right/look familiar, 6 parts having the right hormone balance to make me not suicidal, and 1 part appearance/vanity.


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