Okay okay, I'm taking down one of my secrecy walls and addressing this very serious matter: I have entered the andro-ish (planned) part of my transition, and I find that I stress more over being perceived as androgynous than binary male or female. I once had a very hard time regarding androgynous as an actual identity, thinking it was more about style, but I guess I'm wrong. This is confusing. Help me to understand my inability to express androgynous qualities comfortably, as I feel it is a stumbling block in my transition- my master plan to ease my family into this (visually, despite my FB antics) will be a failure, and I will be less comfortable, I'm sure, until I've made the complete switch. Somebody explain to me the rules for being androgyne because I always thought I would embrace it well enough when I got there.


Seriously, I'm confused. I don't want to upset anyone, I'm sorry, and I don't even know if I did. Maybe I'm overcooking my brain with these silly plans and such.
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Quote from: EmmaM on April 12, 2011, 04:15:36 AM
Somebody explain to me the rules for being androgyne because I always thought I would embrace it well enough when I got there.

the most important rule is to make up the rules as you go.

Ok, I realize what I've done, let's try different questions!

Who in the media, today, do you think is cool and is androgynous?
Andro style tips? Do they exist?
What makes an androgynous person happy (as far as recognition)?

I would say maybe a mixture of the two.  Nothing that is overtly masculine nor feminine.

Maybe have the eyebrows shaped.  Pierce and wear simple earrings.  Maybe some eyeliner. 

Clothes are easier.  Wear more feminine tops or jeans.  Maybe some ballet slippers.  a Blend of male and female.

Thank you, Janet. I don't know why I feel the need to stop in the unicorn forest and dabble, but I think it may have a lot to do with believing certain aspects of gender expression to be unnecessarily gendered.

Edit: I'm not a gender deconstructionist, I'm just different that way

I've been thinking along the same lines as Emma but specifically about clothes. Can anyone point to examples of outfits that are androgynous?

I've always tried to do the opposite NOT appear andro and I  don't know why exactly. I get what your asking though and the best way I can describe it is to think Tomboy as far as dressing.

there are many different ways to present as not Male or female exclusively some of us present in a way that causes others to think "is that person Male or female" the fashion world see androgynous look being someone who shows no gendered traits.  I'm at the other end where I clearly show traits from both sides (I have a full beard and wear breast forms full time) there are rules for presenting as male and female if you don't fit either box then presenting as outside the boxes has no real rules and could be seen as just breaking rules from both sides, being true to who you are means not conforming to anything that feels wrong for you. 

Here ya go

http://i.models.com/oftheminute/images/2008/04/katya45.jpg

http://images.teamsugar.com/files/upl1/0/3987/40_2008/Rachel-Bilson_0.preview.jpg<-- I never heard of this chick before but wow I may have found a new girlfriend !!

http://image.rayli.com.cn/0002/2011-01-07/images/20110107144357404.jpg

Thanks for the help, but it seems I have conveyed the wrong need. My fault. How do you cope with being perceived as androgynous, because it stresses me a little. Sorry :/ 

I would do whatever make you feel the best.

Quote from: EmmaM on April 12, 2011, 09:17:07 PM
Thanks for the help, but it seems I have conveyed the wrong need. My fault. How do you cope with being perceived as androgynous, because it stresses me a little. Sorry :/

I see your point, now. Just be and go about your own business. The androgynous look has been around long enough for it to have any kind of shock value. I would treat any comments people made with a simple thank you, and I like your sense of style too. Don't let others define you. You define, you have your say in this world, use it. Even if it's wearing what makes you feel good. If you feel good with what you're wearing, then you will look good. It's about confidence. JUST BE YOU!! You'll be marvelous Darling.

You pose questions that are difficult for many of us who call ourselves androgynes to answer. I can only speak for myself, because, like many in the forest, I am an amiable misfit and an unconscious rebel. When I was young, I infuriated those closest to me, first by experimenting with dresses, and later by growing a beard. Cool people in the media for me, would be perhaps Humphrey Bogart, Katherine Hepburn, Errol Flynn, etc. In this forum, I think Kinkly and Pica Pica have cool senses of style. I like shirts with puffy sleeves, tight at the wrists, bright tunics, and knee britches. I like more colors than are allowed in men's clothing stores.

I wear what one store calls comfort mocs, suede slip-ons (in a variety of colors, including red), and hiking boots. I like button-down shirts in pink, purple, pastel green, yellow, and several shades of blue. I also wear some more casual shirts, including some in a misses size 18, but those are not conspicuously feminine. My slacks are in a couple shades of blue, plus I've some khakis and jeans. I always wear a necklace with the Hebrew inscription: I am my beloved's, and my beloved is mine. I carry a tan canvas shoulder purse (Once a woman stopped me to ask how I liked it; she had thought of getting one like it). When I couldn't find just what I wanted, I have sometimes sewed or knitted for myself. My hair is in a ponytail that hangs to the middle of my back, washed and conditioned daily. My beard rates less care.

When my wife asks what she should wear, I usually give her a blank stare. I don't copy anyone's style (though I may adopt elements), nor would I presume to tell others how to live. I am flattered when told I look nice, cooked tasty food, or cleaned the refrigerator with uncommon thoroughness, and saddened when met with disapproval. I am happy when the group of women I work with considers me one of the group, and when I am accepted by the group of women I lunch with and am learning to play mah jong with, and when my wife refers to me as 'she' (or when she tells me she likes my body).

I fear none of this will be of much help to you, but I do wish you the best on your journey through the forest.

S

Quote from: EmmaM on April 12, 2011, 09:17:07 PM
Thanks for the help, but it seems I have conveyed the wrong need. My fault. How do you cope with being perceived as androgynous, because it stresses me a little. Sorry :/

...so are you saying that you don't want to look androgynous?  Because this probably wouldn't be the right forum for that.  I mean, we're androgynes, so...yeah.  I think looking androgynous often is one of our goals...not always, but often.

Or are you troubled because you don't think you know how to look androgynous?  I'm confused.

Emma

I think I know how you feel and what you mean when you say your stressed at being perceived as androgynous.

There is absolutely nothing wrong with being androgynous if this is how you want to look or how you feel. I have talked with a few wonderful people on this forum that consider themselves this. As for myself and maybe you Emma I want need to be gendered as one or the other and I want it to be female.

I am also at the androgynous stage of my transition, although I am gendered correctly (female)most times I struggle with how people perceive me when I don't know what gender they pegged me as. I do not want to be gendered as male but unfortunately I still present that, in doing this I don't know how people perceive me at times.

Before the start of my transition, I thought wow, becoming androgynous would be so cool, to actually have people not know what gender you are groovy well I was wrong I DO want people to know what gender I am, problem is some people KNOW I'm male but not sure what they see. I hate being gendered male but have no choice.

Side note, sorry to any FTM's but I hate being called dude, man or guy even in casual conversation. My children all know dude isn't allowed in my house. 

Shelly

Hi Emma, andro.... yeah BTDT,, ok so the advise.. I got there when I tried to transition 16 years ago, and and it was REALLY tough, becuase I felt like nothing,, I presented in public lookin glike a Fem guy, (which killed me!) I identified less with that than acting like a guy, make sense? Ultimatley it was another factor in me not completing my transition as I was not strong enough to endure..  JUST KNOW its only temporary, then you can move to where you want to be.  I wish I would have made it through. Think of it like a "tour of duty" it will end

Yeah, sorry for the confusion. I was over analyzing the road I'm taking- I will be lurking here in the forest for ideas and tips to andro living as the process puts me through the phase, because I admire your strength of character. At the end of the day, I don't have an option: Like Shelly, I NEED to be gendered female- no matter what I am or am not wearing.

Very interesting and helpful everyone

I myself was somewhat confused when i first found this website, as on the one hand by reading posts by others i felt as if i was andro, but on the other hand as i have no wish to come across as looking andro or  go out my way to do so like some of you on here, it left me wondering if i was andro at all. During my time on here however i have realised that being andro has no uniformity, just because i dont do some of the things others do, does not make me any less an andro than them. I am very protective of my female side, because thats the side of me that feels caged up and only allowed out when the time is right, i detest wearing male clothes, although i have very few, just wearing jeans and trousers in womans sizes makes my life a little more bearable.

Im lucky enough to have to have a very supportive wife who does not mind me plucking my eyebrows or removing the hairs off my legs and under arms or trying to increase my boob size. I do not like being called a male, although i have to accept i am my childrens father and my wifes husband, buts thats as far as that goes, but at the same time i am obviously not female either, i felt a few years ago that i was 60% female and 40% male and i have never changed my oppinion on those percentages. I dont really care how i come across to other people or what they think of me, how i see myself is the only thing that matters.

Quote from: EmmaM on April 12, 2011, 09:17:07 PM
Thanks for the help, but it seems I have conveyed the wrong need. My fault. How do you cope with being perceived as androgynous, because it stresses me a little. Sorry :/

The answer is simple...just don't worry about it. I had a bit of an epiphany last sunday after I bounced off the road after bailing from my longboard. The crash, though painful, ultimately didn't matter because i wasn't full of fear about it, or crashing again...the most important thing to me was to be on the board and enjoying myself (I ache now tho). If you fret and worry about how others percieve you, you will spend your days full of the fear of being percieved in a way that is hurtful to you. If however, you just decide to accept that every so often someone will percieve you in a way that is different to how you would like and just think "so what" you'll end up enjoying the experience of just being you a hell of a lot more.

Helena's advice to everyone fretting about transition and how people percieve you is - take up long boarding and learn to pick yourself up of the ground and get back on the board when you bounce off the tarmac at 30mph. This is why skaters, surfers and snowboarders are so relaxed, we've all learnt the big secret of how to get through life.

Quote from: EmmaM on April 13, 2011, 12:21:05 AM
At the end of the day, I don't have an option: Like Shelly, I NEED to be gendered female- no matter what I am or am not wearing.

Great questions Emma, and ones that are asked over and over here in the unicorn forest. However, your last statement in your last post is emblematic of what I feel is the real issue. Many people have given you good strategies, but how do you get to  the point of implementing them? Helena (and others) have all basically said, don't worry so much (or at all) about what other people think, it's what you think that matters. How do you just not worry about what (you think) they are thinking about reading your gender? You do realize, that the real problem is what you think they are thinking. It's the story (of what they are thinking) in your own mind that is causing you trouble.

A very wise women (Byron Katie) said that whenever you are worried about what someone else is thinking, you are in their business, and you have no right to be in their business in the first place, since you can't make anyone think or feel the way you want them to anyway. Further, when you are in THEIR business, you are not in/taking care of YOUR own business, and everyone just gets even more confused.

So, ask yourself, is it really true that others need to read your gender the way you want to be read? Is it absolutely true? How do you feel when you have that belief? How would you feel if you didn't have that belief (that you need OTHERS to read your gender as female)? I suggest that you turn that statement around and then sit with the result and see how THAT makes you feel.  That statement, turned around, could read: "I don't need others to read me as female." and/or "I need ME to read my gender as female." When you can believe that, I bet you won't even be asking these questions; you will already know.

(For more info on 'turn arounds' and Byron Katie's work on examining your beliefs, see her website or read her first book, "Loving What Is." If you can examine your fundamental beliefs and begin to change your self-talk, I bet your transition will feel much easier, for you and those in your life.)

Good luck and welcome to the forest!