Quote from: Stephe on April 20, 2011, 01:43:44 AM
Does being transgendered and having had surgeries etc diminish your womanhood?

Yes we all have "That stupid past". Either we can learn to embrace it as part of who we are or try to run and hide from it for the rest of our lives trying to pretend it doesn't exist. We didn't create that past. It was what we were dealt. Why should we be ashamed of it? I am not saying you need to add a modifier to your title "woman" or even go around telling people you are if you don't want to. But I don't think it should be something you would be uncomfortable if people knew either.

Take a breast cancer survivor. They don't go around with a tatoo on their forehead but they shouldn't be ashamed of it and try to pretend it never happened either. They will always be a cancer survivor, just something in their past that likely has an affect on who they now are and what their perspective is like.

As TG's, we also have a unique perspective of the world cis people would never be able to grasp. I think it's a good thing and makes us tough YMMV of course..

Breast cancer survivors do not also shout it from the roof tops. Most are worried that it diminishes them as a woman if they are without breasts. They as you say dont deny they have had it but they also dont advertise the fact.

Trans peoole in my experience feel that same. Yes we are trans and no we are not going to advertise the fact.

I read the first page and felt bad. lol. I was like...pft ya its so true. Then really read the wiki page that was recommended and see what it really meant and was all  . lol To be honest I am still a tad confused but learned alot.

This is a very personal issue to many and unfortunately it usually ends up in disarray and hurt feelings.

Lets try to keep this civil.

Quote from: Sarah Louise on April 20, 2011, 01:46:33 PM
This is a very personal issue to many and unfortunately it usually ends up in disarray and hurt feelings.

Lets try to keep this civil.

It does seem to be a very personal issue indeed. I think the goal here was simply to establish a logical and general definition of the word transgendered. Valerie, I intend to respect your feelings about being forced to recognize what you see as a political label, but I'd like to repeat something that I have said again and again: The label in itself doesn't hold any power.

If an immigrant person arrives in a new country, that person will get the label of an immigrant. It doesn't matter why he chose to move from his country to ours, it doesn't matter if he had a choice in doing so, he still is an immigrant. Once that immigrant has been established in his new country and started over a new life, feeling completely integrated, will that person stop being an immigrant? The fact is that this person will always be an immigrant. That doesn't mean that he hasn't perfectly adapted to his new country, that doesn't mean that is not just as worthy as anybody to live there. Being an immigrant simply means that this person has a history of being in a different country.

Did that immigrant face discrimination for being one? Sadly, it often the case. But it is not word that forced that discrimination to happen, it's the other people's fear and insecurities. Someone might say "I'm not an immigrant, I'm a real citizen.", but that comes from a wrong set of mind that thinks immigrants can't be real citizen, which is a very discriminative one. While the person doesn't realize it, he has internalized the fear and insecurities that other people have projected on him, and took refuge from them by denying reality.

I think saying " I'm not transgendered, I'm a real woman." is exactly the same as saying "I'm not an immigrant, I'm a real citizen.". Saying so implies that being transgendered exclude being a real woman, when this is absolutely not the case. And the problem with that kind of thinking is that it doesn't help anyone, including the person who's denying. When people learn about your history, they won't care about the words you use to describe yourself. If no one as taught them that being transgendered is in no way an obstacle to being a real woman, they might just as well see you a man in delusion. Accepting the label means that you can start actively promoting tolerance and credible knowledge about it.

I have no desire to attack anyone on their beliefs and I have a huge respect for the history of everyone on this forum. I'm still very closeted about my own issues, but I've seen enough to know that the world his far from tender to those who aren't gender normative, and even less to the transsexuals. I know many of us have good reasons for not wanting to labeled as transgendered, but we should remember that people use labels everyday. Unless we actively shape our own, it's the cisgendered people who are going to do it. And the result is rarely very satisfying.

Quote from: Caleb_ on April 20, 2011, 03:42:36 PM
There is no reason for her to identify as an immigrant any longer. She is a Canadian with a Dutch background.

I understand that, and I know that, but can't we just summarize the "with a Dutch background" by saying immigrant? Would that take away the fact that your grandmother's home is here in Canada? The definition of an immigrant is "someone who has lived in an other country before this one". So instead of bothering in using the whole cumbersome definition every time, why wouldn't we use the word that was meant to say that?

Should we let the stupid people who have misused the word win by allowing them to decide the meaning they want to give the word?

This is just the problem, once a position is taken, its hard to change.

No matter how much you debate it, minds are seldom changed.  Usually they just dig in deeper.

Why not just agree to disagree?

Quote from: Valeriedances on April 20, 2011, 04:06:19 PM
It is unfortunate that in many instances people who are living in a part-time or closeted status, for very valid reasons, have a point of view or agenda in asking folks who have risked everything and faced real discrimination in their lives to be who they are, to label themselves a certain way. I believe those that are doing and risking all should have the peace and freedom in being accepted as they show themselves to be.

That is all I am saying.

What is the most important thing for you? To be seen as a real woman or to be seen as a real cisgendered woman? I know I'll never be a cisgendered woman. No matter what I do, no matter what I think, I'll always know where I come from and what my history is. If the real goal of transition is to become a cisgendered woman, then I know it's not worth it, because it will never be achieved.

It might be hard for someone who's risked it all to hear of people who are actually questioning on what it is that they are facing and what it's going to mean. But to me, it's very important to be thorough in my reasoning if I want to ever consider going in such a huge change in my life. This is why I think it's very legitimate to question these kind of things. Once I am done transitioning, maybe I won't care anymore about what is real or what it not, but right now, this is a very important question for me and I'm simply trying to find answers.

I think everyone here knows that life is filled with hardships and deceptions. This is part what brought us together in the first place.

now i know why i come to susans place.........thanks for reminding me

Quote from: Catherine on April 20, 2011, 05:11:22 AM
The problem with labels is that it gives people an excuse to discriminate. I know I am transgendered, I would suspect everyone who is transgendered knows this unless they are deluded. I just dont want to be known as being transgendered. It is private information to me.

Read through the comments, several people here have proclaimed they are NOT transgendered and see it as an insult.

Also, if people want to discriminate, they will find a way to do so.

No one is saying you need to proclaim and announce to everyone you are transgendered. But when you work so hard to hide something like this from people, it sends the message that this is something people should be ashamed of or why bother to hide it? That it turn affects how the public views someone being transgendered, clearing it's BAD or they wouldn't be ashamed of it. I'm a woman, quite a few people know I am transgendered and I too have moved on with my life. This isn't a mutually exclusive thing.

As far as woman who define their womanhood by their breasts, size or lack thereof... I don't see how that is a positive way to live your life either, nor should we strive to follow in their footsteps or use them as a role model for our behavior..

Stephe

Quote from: Valeriedances on April 20, 2011, 04:06:19 PM
It is unfortunate that in many instances people who are living in a part-time or closeted status (for very valid reasons) have a point of view or agenda in asking folks who have risked everything and faced real discrimination in their lives to be who they are, to label themselves a certain way. I believe those that are doing and risking all should have the peace and freedom in being accepted as they show themselves to be.

The only "agenda" I have is the public needs to have "transgender" defined.

It needs a VERY simple definition that a cisgendered person can wrap their mind around, which is the one at the start of this thread. It doesn't need 2 paragraphs about "Some people who have had sex changes don't like to have their past revealed and so no longer fit in this group and have their own special group, which they also don't want used to define them, but some TS's still identify as TG" or whatever other exemptions some people want to create.

I have been living 24/7 as a woman for years and transitioned in place with no medical or therapists help whatsoever. I just did it on my own so I KNOW what discrimination is and that it exists. I risked as much as anyone has doing this the way I did with ZERO support. I'm not sure what your above statement is about.. I don't feel my opinions on this hold any more weight because of my life choices so far or than someone who still lives as their birth gender and is 100% in the closet.

I'm really sorry this topic and my comments upset you so much. Clearly no one can force a label on you and you can deny it applies to you. That's clearly your right. No one is saying you must tell anyone your past and feel free to hide from your past if that makes you happy. I'm sure not going to make a judgment on that for you and can totally understand why you would want to, it does make life more difficult if people know.

I like the example she gave of being an immigrant. You can become a full fledged legal citizen and -most- people will accept you are as much of a citizen as anyone. The law is on your side that you ARE a citizen. Personally I have  MORE respect for someone who worked to become a citizen than someone who was born a citizen. Are there people who view these immigrants as "less than real citizens?" Clearly there are, but should they live their life to stay under the radar of those types of ignorant, narrow minded people? 

Obviously that is a personal choice and again no one can tell you "You have to proclaim at every opportunity "I am transgendered!". I don't think anyone is saying that here. But IMHO to deny you are transgendered would be just like an immigrant trying to deny they ever lived in another country. Their past is nothing they have anything to be ashamed over. On the other hand, no one expects them to go around telling people "I was originally from ____ before I became a citizen" either..

Stephe

Quote from: Valeriedances on April 20, 2011, 09:11:10 AM

I'm not trans-ing anything, as I've said before. I'm legally female. That is all the identification I need or want.

I'm curious, if they had denied this "legally female" identification would that change your self perception? And were you a different person before the legal status was granted? Just curious as you keep saying this, like this legal status changed who you are.

One last thing I'm curious about, were you ever transgendered and now you're not? Or are transgendered people a totally different group of people who just happen to also have been born a different sex than their goal gender identity, many of whom may one day end up post op with this same legal female status?

One question of yours I didn't answer, by -us- I was talking about transgendered people. I'm tracking to have surgery, get my legal female status etc so maybe I'm not part of this -us- and don't realize it yet or it's that your not part of this -us-? I guess I'm confused in that I don't see the difference between me and you.

Valerie, allow me a shot at understanding.

TG is important label for the politically active, I've been asked to be part of the political and social TG community as part of my therapy- and I kind of balked at the notion. I tried, but ultimately came to the conclusion that, since I will consider myself just "another girl" when all is said and done, that I have no special tie to the group in that manner. For those who don't require relative stealth to address their GID, a transsexual of incredibly intense nature is a frustrating individual.

I can't take it, I tried, but settling for anything other than "her" wil not do. I find myself identifying with women like you more and more. I try to help others on their journey through, and I need help too, but I won't let trans be the biggest part of my life beyond it happening. (surgically)

I know that is probably going to make quite a few people mad, but ghats

* that's what I feel I had to get off my chest. There are complications, of course, byt there goes a belief of mine.

I think y'all are building boxes with vapor and then being upset when things fall on the floor.

The topic of sex/gender has a real language problem.  Inadequate terminology and understanding of the subject in the early days led to a creation of this very confusing set of terms we have today.  Fuzzy and often contradictory meanings and definitions abound.  Trying to have a conversation about gender without it diverting into a discussion of semantics at some point along the way is darn near impossible, which frustrates us all to no end.  Also, language is the framework upon which thoughts are built, so when all you have in your arsenal for thinking about a subject is an inadequate set of blurry and conflicting terms, it can be really difficult to even think clearly about it.

It would be nice if we could scrap the whole sex/gender lexicon and start over, but unfortunately language doesn't really work that way.  We're pretty much stuck with what we got.  This means you have to formulate your own way of thinking about the subject and you have to allow others to do the same.  You also just have to accept that, given all of the above, we're not all going end up on the same page.  In fact it's a miracle if any of us ever do.

Also, Valerie.... <huuugs>

Quote from: Valeriedances on April 21, 2011, 04:50:08 PM
I have spoken my position plainly already. I dont want to argue any longer, it is tiresome.

I dont know why I am still here honestly.

-Valerie

Sorry you see this as a argument, that's not my intention. I was trying to understand why this upsets you so badly and how you got to this place where you don't consider yourself transgendered when some other post TS's do and what the difference is. You seemed to be focused on this "legally female" thing and I was trying to understand: is that the point you were no longer transgendered or ?? Again sorry if you see this as a fight, argument or somehow being attacked personally.

Quote from: EmmaM on April 21, 2011, 07:08:30 PM
Valerie, allow me a shot at understanding.

TG is important label for the politically active, I've been asked to be part of the political and social TG community as part of my therapy- and I kind of balked at the notion. I tried, but ultimately came to the conclusion that, since I will consider myself just "another girl" when all is said and done, that I have no special tie to the group in that manner.

I honestly have never had an interest in being politically TG active or involved with "the transgendered community" either. None of my close friends are TG but there are a few trans people at my church and they seem nice. I just don't have a lot in common with them, other than being TG, and for me that's not like some common ground to base a friendship. Anymore than being white or a woman is. it wouldn't exclude them from being my friend either. I've been invited to come to their support group thing, I'm not interested. I don't feel any "ties" to this community or feel like I need to go do things with other TG's etc just because they are TG.

I too am just another woman/human being that just happens to be transgendered. I have no desire to live in a "trans friendly area of town". And being transgendered is not really something I dwell on or is part of my life as such, but it just -is- if that makes any sense. Being TG doesn't make me not a woman or any more or less anything. Doesn't mean I have to talk to people about it or go hang out with other people just because they are either.

I do feel that the non-transgendered people around us in the world are curious and a simple explanation of what the term means, without a confusing list of exclusions, would help things for a lot of people. NO ONE is saying anyone has to take this on as their own. Like I never said "Valerie is transgendered", I only said "transgendered means: someone who was born male wants to be a woman or someone who was born female wants to be a man".  This seems to be what is the accepted definition of the term. No where does it say you must be involved in the community or anything such as that.

If someone doesn't see these definitions fitting them, then they aren't transgendered. I don't see why this is so complicated or how anyone would get upset over this.

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/transgender

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/transgender

http://www.answers.com/topic/transgender

 I'm about to say something really inflammatory.

   I apologise, ahead of time, if what follows offends you, but it's how I genuinely feel. I'm not suggesting that anyone here has less validity than anyone else... just that self-identification is quite subjective and contrary to the objective definition suggested by the first post in this thread.

  There are those that have been truly born with a birth defect. Gender Identity Disorder is a very real condition for many here... I, personally, experienced profound depression, debilitating anxiety and real suicidality as a result of my condition. I once tried to castrate myself.  My brain is physiologically female; medical treatment worked wonders for me.. HRT, quite literally saved my life; SRS has been determined a necessary medical procedure for me.

There are many here that are self-identified as "non-op" or "non-medical." Some would describe themselves as having lived years as a certain gender but still assert the desire to use the genitals they were born with. I don't get that.

  If you want to live as a woman but be a man in bed.. yep, you're Transgender. DO NOT, however, suggest that folks like me should identify with you. I think the Transgender definition has become TOO broad, mixing lifestyles with life conditions.

Quote from: Stephe on April 21, 2011, 09:53:26 PM
Sorry you see this as a argument, that's not my intention. I was trying to understand why this upsets you so badly and how you got to this place where you don't consider yourself transgendered when some other post TS's do and what the difference is. You seemed to be focused on this "legally female" thing and I was trying to understand: is that the point you were no longer transgendered or ?? Again sorry if you see this as a fight, argument or somehow being attacked personally.

I didn't see any posts where she came across as being so upset.  In any case, I think she explained why she doesn't identify with the term pretty clearly.

Like many words describing gender related issues, transgendered has so many meanings for so many different people that the word doesn't effectively mean anything, or at least it can mean darn near anything you want.  One person's version isn't any more valid than another's.

If y'all want to have a single and well-defined meaning for the word that everybody is going to go along with, well good luck with that one...

Quote from: JessicaR on April 22, 2011, 12:02:53 AM
I'm about to say something really inflammatory.

   I apologise, ahead of time, if what follows offends you, but it's how I genuinely feel. I'm not suggesting that anyone here has less validity than anyone else... just that self-identification is quite subjective and contrary to the objective definition suggested by the first post in this thread.

  There are those that have been truly born with a birth defect. Gender Identity Disorder is a very real condition for many here... I, personally, experienced profound depression, debilitating anxiety and real suicidality as a result of my condition. I once tried to castrate myself.  My brain is physiologically female; medical treatment worked wonders for me.. HRT, quite literally saved my life; SRS has been determined a necessary medical procedure for me.

There are many here that are self-identified as "non-op" or "non-medical." Some would describe themselves as having lived years as a certain gender but still assert the desire to use the genitals they were born with. I don't get that.

  If you want to live as a woman but be a man in bed.. yep, you're Transgender. DO NOT, however, suggest that folks like me should identify with you. I think the Transgender definition has become TOO broad, mixing lifestyles with life conditions.

Good post,

I agree there are so many 'definitions' invented to allow people to justify a lifestyle.

As I keep saying my Shrink told me there are two genders and many sexualities well six actually... and he seemed to me to be pretty up on the current practice.

Personally I don't get transvestism.. I don't see how a man can get sexual gratification from wearing a pair of silky knickers. I know they do, I don't criticise them for doing it but I don't get it and I certainly don't identify with it..

If gender is binary, where do intersexed people fit?