The marriage licence bureau, the social security adm, the Immigration naturalization service, the IRS, the courts all have their own ways to determine gender.

How do people in society determine gender in our day to day lives?

I believe it is very simple, people determine gender by physical appearance only.

If a person looks like a feminine woman, then all perceive the person that way, no matter what other circumstances surround them. This person can use profanity, have road rage, love sports, whistle at women, be ruthless in business, say things that are normally only said by men, plus 10 other sterotypical male traits and not one person in 1000 would doubt they were female. They might be labled a bit*h or obnoxious or lesbian but never a man.

A person who appears like a man, can have feelings just like a woman, and express them like a woman, be sensitive and cry easily,  relate and be friends with only women, like fashion and decorating, (i know this is all stereotypical but you get the point) and not one single person would consider that this person could be female. They will use words like sensitive, nice guy or suspect they might be gay but never female.

So that's my point, when you walk into a room appearing male, your appearance determines how everyone perceives your gender and even if you act, talk and have feelings like a woman, even over a period of years, no one will question your gender. Gender is the only first impression that can't be changed. If a person has for instance a mean look, your impression of them being mean can be easily changed in a few minutes of conversation.

This fact is one reason it is hard for people to accept us, they cannot easily accept the possibility that a person could be a different gender then their appearance suggests.

nicely put.  i agree.

  "I believe it is very simple, people determine gender by physical appearance only."

Sorry Beth, but it's not like it's all that simple.  There is far more involved then you know yet.  My personal opinion of course, but I find the basic idea ludicrus as I know from experience how simplistic that is.  Physical appearance may make an initial impact, but a little time and close contact will most always make the difference, and i'm not talking about simple things like voice and such.  I'll not go into it on this one, just state an opinion and leave it at that and bow out.  Right now I'm to busy trying to hold my sides together and rolling my eyes.  Bad mind set for a conversation.  But perhaps someone else with more control ....

Hum, I agree to a very large degree.

Atypical behavior though is going to cause reexamination of the first impression, which should be based just on appearance.

---

Starts to get paranoid and thinks the above is too simplistic, even if it is greatly simplified!

I guess there is a need to qualify this for those that are rolling on the floor instead of understanding what i said. This statement has nothing to do with anyone transitioning or transitioned. I said if you appear as a man, i didnt mean in any way someone transitioning which of course would cause people to observe behavior and make their own judgements. Appears as a man or appears as a feminine woman means just that nothing else. And i do have experience in this, 40 years of experience. I am a little different than most and i dont assume everyones experience has to be exactly like mine as some do. Since 18 or so, I havent played a male role or acted macho to avoid detection. I have mostly just been myself in terms of how i act and communicate with people while in a male body and no one detected anything until i met my partner a year ago. I have always balled at weddings and sad movies, I have a doll, one that ive kept in my room (which was seperate from my ex wifes room), slept with, talked to it and kissed it all the time at least from 35 to 50 years of age while my children were up into their 20s. i interacted with men only on the level necessary for business. I occasionally showed a general disdain for men. I almost always disagreed with what men thought and how they acted. I lit up around women friends. I always loved womens movies, i did everything with my daughters including shopping and buying their clothes. I could go on and on. People do not question your gender by actions unless they include cross dressing, growing breasts, announcing your gender is different etc. and that isnt what im talking about in this thread.

Adel, a former regular here I think had the a great post on this. I was impressed enough that I copied and saved the text. Part of it is below.

GID doesn't make you a member of the opposite sex. It only makes you Think you are and at that point you are subject to all of the same variations that exist with in that gender and all persons of a particular gender don't meet the cultural/social expectations of others for that gender. It is how you relate to/with and are axcepted by the opposite sex and or gender that determines your actual membership. Once you take that to the bank, they cash it in for you and life becomes brighter, trust me on this.

The core identity simply is not affected by the views of others, rather how we are able to face the world with that core identity because of our own fear which is a product of the views of others until delt with and conquered within ourselves. The core identity can only come through in it's fullest expression when it has ceased to be afraid to do so and actually has learned to respect itself for what it is.

In other words, the GID itself is not in conflict. Instincts such as self preservation and pride are instead in conflict with GID.


Sandi

 

Quote
So that's my point, when you walk into a room appearing male, your appearance determines how everyone perceives your gender and even if you act, talk and have feelings like a woman, even over a period of years, no one will question your gender.

My experience is at odds with this Beth.

I had barely stated transitioning and HRT, probably less than a month or so when I started going to the bar.   I do admit that at first I held back, not forcing my presence on the women that later were to become my close friends.  They saw me then and how they relate to me now shows  no doubt that I am accorded the same rights as every other woman.  My personal belief is that its who you are that influences acceptance, not what you appear to be.

Quote
This fact is one reason it is hard for people to accept us, they cannot easily accept the possibility that a person could be a different gender then their appearance suggests.

I agree at least in the str8 world.  They are so invested in the binary gender system that there are no allowances for those who step outside of the system.  In the Queer community there there is much greater acceptance of gender varience.  A good read is Gender Outlaws by Kate Borenstien or Stone Butch Blues by Leslie Fineberg.

I kind of experienced the same thing at work.  When I first started working at my present clinic I was still half a year away from starting hormones.  Every body there was looking at me like Whats that?  There were even phone calls to my manager wanting to know what kind of freak had been sent to them.  All knew I was actually Male at the time.  The first couple of weeks was a lot of cold shoulder and snubs, but I did my job, stayed as cheerful as possible and answered up to any calls or request as politely and eficiently as possible.

LIttle by little, one by one, the MA's stationed in the halls began to exchange some small talk with me and again, one by one began to establish a sort of relationship with me, but not all.  To this day there are a couple that have never exchanged words with me other then required for business.

As time went on I began to be greeted and exchanged with in any of the med units on the compound.  Doctors and head nurses began establishing relationships with me.  After starting hormones, as the months went by, my developmental process became a topic of conversation with the various staff.  By this time I was always being invited into chats and afterwork plans with members of the staff throughout the compound.  Girls that I talked to most would stop me in the halls and ask for a hug.  There are a couple I can't walk by without a hug fest.  Even when the have a patient on the scales or otherwise involved with them. Some of the girls started refering to me as Ms. Terri.  Some of the charge nurses started asking me how i wished to be reffered to as gender wise.  My response was to simply refer to me as suited them as I would not stand for anyone to be forced to refer to me as something they didn't believe.

Almost 3 years have gone by and I am treated with all female courtesy by both Male and Female employees, though none of them for a moment believe I am a genetic female, yet they talk to me in softer tones and kid around and chat with me about their daily lives, their husbands, kids, the family car and their pets in perfectly natural tones.  They treat me as a person, and better yet, like a female person and many of the MA's like to stay current in my transitional process and when is the final step and do I need any help with sick or vacation time when the time comes.  We can save up to 500 hours of vacation time and a few there have offered to donate time from their own accounts If I need it.  They make me feel totally accepted and wanted, of value, and I love them for it.

I've been told often enough that they couldn't imagine me as male, though it is a fact that I am one who's appearance changes dramatically depending on mood or thoughts.  When happy and secure, I'm a bright, sunny, feminine person, but when not happy about external events at home or worried about finances or a million other things I tend to become very masculine in appearnce and sometimes even deameanor.  The staff is familiar with this and when I seem to be more masculine, they come to me asking whats wrong and can they help? They will joke with me and tell me stories to cheer me up and not let me go until they see their "girl" again.  On days such as this my partner tells me that on her rounds MA's will stop her and ask her whats wrong with me?  Am I sick or have some trouble?  And all just because I appear more masculine at times.

Even knowing Full well I am biological male, they do not see me that way and if I appear to be acting that way, do their best to bring me out of it.

It goes pretty deep.  They are no more ashamed of associating with me then of talking with any other girl.  The other day I was in Opticle Sales.  One of the girls followed me out into the reception lobby while talking with me about upcoming surgery.  We stopped in the lobby and chatted a bit about how long I would be off and would it be a painful process and all that.  When we said goodby, I turned around and a lady waiting in line for reception was glaring at me in a way I didn't like.  She was a big woman and if the same look had been on a man, my hackles would have gone up, but as she was obviously over 60, and female I discounted it.  Said "nice to see you again" and walked out.  This same woman had stopped me earlier for directions and had completely accepted me as female during our short conversation and now realized she had made a "mistake" and apparently didn't like the idea of it.

Same occurs on the streets.  Some will have nothing to do with me, but almost everyone that takes time to talk with me and get to know me a little gives me at least some acceptance, some totally.  The corner store I often stop at, a regular stop for construction people, gangstas and Harley people, they clerks all know me by name and treat me with total respect.  some of the hardcases watch me some, but so far nobody has made any challenge or threat and just for fun I sometimes ask one of them to hold heaverier items like packs of cokes etc. while giving them my brightest smile and so far they are always glad to.  And I'm telling you, as a package, I'm not all that passable, and now that it's warming up I often go in on days off wearing tops and T-shirts which show my bare arms, complete with the unfemine Tatoos, sometimes even showing off the skull and wheel above my belt line in midrif tops.  there is little doubt that I'm a ->-bleeped-<- and not a genetic when you look me over,  The dropped right eye, the scars around both eyes and around my jaw and the scars and burns on my arms are enough to make one wonder about female, but they accept it.

Of course a lot of it is just I happen to be in the middle of Queer county so for most anybody, it's not all that unusual to encounter one of us, but the personal interactions show more then tolerance, and I know some who are afraid of their shadow when stepping out who to me at least, pass wonderfully, just it's only skin deep for them and thats what comes through when directly involved with people they don't know.  I just bebop around in my Jeans, sneakers and tops and am as safe as any of the strangers.  Go figure.

Leigh is right, its not what you look like or what people know you are by birth.   They seem to believe in me because I believe in me and I relate to them as they would expect a person of my belief to relate to them.

If all it amounted to was how I looked or was dressed, I'd have been pounded into a mud puddle long ago.  What they see is me, not my gender, thats the only way I can take it.

I guess most didnt understand what I said, it had absolutely nothing to do with being accepted while transitioning or presenting as TS, but you made great points in what you decided it was about.

beth

In some extra ordinary individuals I can feel the feminine essence of their spirit.    There was something different about their presence in the room.

I have also felt this about one or two men.  I am not talking about a brutish essence,  I am talking about a masculine essence:  strong,  self assured,  in command,  but not pushy,  used  to influencing others, dominate but not dominating.

I am not sure what essence I give off.   When one grows up in an emotional disfunctional family,   some times one develops a sense of who people are and what mood they are in.  I believe I have done that.

Unfortunately I am more sensitive to others than I am to myself.   I am not sure what my essence is saying.    But I feel that if a person comes into a room eluding a feminine essence they will be perceived as female inspite of  many visual clues that contradict it.

Just a thought.

Quote from: Sandi on May 29, 2005, 10:32:34 AMGID doesn't make you a member of the opposite sex.

i find this weird to think around.  for now, and i might be wrong in this, i'm assuming that gid means being transsexual.  if it also means things like crossdressing, then i can't really cover that as i don't know much about it, and it's kinda besides my point anyhow, so i'll stick with the assumption.

gid is a label given to people who aren't the gender they appear to be.  or the sex.  depending.. on how the quote uses language.  what it doesn't say is "the opposite sex"... to what?  if it means physical sex, then obviously it doesn't make you a member of the opposite sex, but a gender change operation (even a falsely-administered one) will.  so i doubt that's what it means.  so assuming by "the opposite sex" it means one's gender being different to their physical sex... then sure, it doesn't cause you to become a "member of the opposite sex"... but it's only given to people who are... so the point seems kinda redundant.

to avoid further dicing my words, for argument's sake let's take me as an example.  my physical sex (my bits and pieces, if you like) are male.  my gender is female.  this quote would seem to be suggesting that my gender is, has always been and will always be male, because some physical characteristics (ie. the bits and pieces... maybe the chromasomes... somesuch like thing) happen to've been set that way.

so, let's say it means chromasomes, again for argument's sake.  and for argument's sake, let's assume something that i've actually no idea of yet one way or the other, which is that my chromasomes point to male.  so this would have it that i will always be male because of that, no matter what.  seems true in isolation... but look at the actual meaning.  in essence, if my chromasomes said i was male, or female, either way it means nothing except itself.  yet by reading this as some kind of "proof of manhood", people don't just take it as that... they associate gender with it... and that's where the meaning is lost.

if 999 people are born with two arms and consequently observed in a certain way as determinedly human, and 1 person is born with three arms, and observed in the same way as having some kind of difference in some kind of genes, that doesn't mean that the 1 person is not human.  the only reason any science attaches meaning to any kind of bit or piece of the human body is because that's what it was observed to appear to do.  and the same would go for any criteria other than chromasomes.  gender is something like life in its otherworldlyness.  it is there and definately exists.  years and years ago, lots of people probably didn't know about the possibility of people being intersexed.  their laughing at the suggestion that genitals do not a gender make, is today's critics laughing at the suggestion that whatever other markers you care to observe do not a gender make.

in these (apologetically overlong!) ways, i disagree with the quoted sentiment.

Actually as medically defined all GID amounts to is a mind set which is unshakeable and incurrable which leads a person to believe that they are a member of the opposite sex, with Sex meaning the genetic (or chormosonial) conditon of being medically defined as male or female, or what is on your birth certificate.

The word Transsexual, in it's original form ment those who desired SRS and no others.  The word Transgendered was coined outside of the medical community to mean those who wished to live full time as a member of the opposite sex but did not feel the need of Surgery to do so, and No others.

->-bleeped-<- is a medical term to mean those who like to dress up as members of the opposite sex but had no wish to actually live as a member of that sex full time, prefering to conduct their daily lives in original form.

The word Crossdresser was coined to mean the same thing as a ->-bleeped-<- but without the medically defined sexual disorders of that definition.

Over time, many transsexuals began do dislike the word sex within thier definition and so opted to use the Transgender label in order not to be confused with sexual disorders as in ->-bleeped-<-

->-bleeped-<-s, crossdressers and even transgenders began calling themselves transsexuals in order to gain the medical status of that definition in order to get away from being lumped in with the sexual disorder thing.

So now what we have is no label as such really means anything, it's all just what tickles your fancy and sounds best to one.

in the case of MTF, be it transsexual, ->-bleeped-<-, crossdresser or Transgender, none of it makes one a woman.  it is only what one believes they are, not an actual member.  What determines admission to a particular club, such as Women, is the clubs willingness to accept you as a member of their club, not just your desire to join.  It is the club and not you that determines membership.  Just like if you wanted to join any private club that has prerequisites for membership.

that help any?

Quote from: Terri-Gene on May 29, 2005, 08:46:57 PM
The word Transgendered was coined outside of the medical community to mean those who wished to live full time as a member of the opposite sex but did not feel the need of Surgery to do so, and No others.

Transgendered as I define it is a term for a variety of individuals centered around the full or partial reversal of societally accepted gender roles.

There are people who are transgendered who would be left out of the definition you assign to the word crossdressers for example. Did you know some of my best friends are crossdressers. The word transsexual fits just fine for the people who wishes to transition full time.

Uh, I forgot intersexed.  Intersexed has nothing to do with any of the other definitions.  It is not a subjective or arguable definition as it is a medically confirmable physiological condition, not wholy a phycological one.  It is therefore treated differently then for Transsexuals in matters of diagnoses and surgery issues, thus is why intersex is specifically excluded from the definition of a transsexual.

These persons are born with conflicting or obscure sexual organs and are sometimes "assigned" as sex at birth, be that the correct one or not.  there are criteria they use in these cases based on a subjective opion of which assigned sex would produce the best sexual life of the person depending on penis size or best ability to function.  SRS is preformed, generally in stages to correct the person to fully function as the sex noted on the birth certificate.

Intersex occures through a number of medically recognized and confirmable conditions and can be verified at most any time in their lives by medical tests.  Some of these people, depending on original deformaty may identify as Transsexual, but are medically looked at as Intersexed.

Agreed Susan, as it was exactly what i was pointing out, any attempt to classify by labels only confuses the issue as the labels are confused these days.

In the most modern times, Transgender has publically become the umbrella term for everything.   This is just as good as defining ones self as TS/TV/CD or whatever, because all those labels are misused, so If one is to misuse a lable, best to pick one that is a catchall, and I'm totally aware that the public will pick up on Transgender quicker then they will Transsexual in terms of thinking they know what it means.  I know that most people at work think of myself as TransGender rather then Transsexual.  MY own psychologist used the Term TransGender for me in a letter he drafted to the Urologist who did my Orchie as justification for the surgery.

Keep in mind though that the modern day use of the term Transgender is a corruption of what it was intended when used originally By Virginia Prince to describe people who felt that they were Transsexual but didn't meet the requiremnet of feeling they needed Surgery so in effect were not transsexuals though except for the surgery issue were often indistinquishable

Quote from: Terri-Gene on May 29, 2005, 08:46:57 PMin the case of MTF, be it transsexual, ->-bleeped-<-, crossdresser or Transgender, none of it makes one a woman.  it is only what one believes they are, not an actual member.  What determines admission to a particular club, such as Women, is the clubs willingness to accept you as a member of their club, not just your desire to join.  It is the club and not you that determines membership.  Just like if you wanted to join any private club that has prerequisites for membership.

no way.

what you describe is whether or not you belong to some sort of social "women's club" ie. being "one of the girls" but it most definately does not describe whether or not you're a woman.  when i was born, i was a woman.  i'm a woman now.  i'd be a woman even if i'd never met any other women in my life.  it isn't a "belief" as you put it, and what is this "actual" membership all about?  if i were born with the correct anatomy, i would be a woman and wouldn't need to "join some club".  the same goes despite that i wasn't born with the correct anatomy.

i am puzzled by this view.  let me ask you, if nobody accepted you as a woman, would you really believe that you weren't one?  and if so, then do you really think you are in the first place?  it seems more along the lines of "seeking to become a woman" than "being one".  dare i say without trying to offend, "pretending".  i know, i know; that said to me would offend me, so please take it with a huge tonne of salt.  but if non-acceptance of who you are makes you not who you are, then something's wrong with that logic... because that way, you start of being not who you are (an impossibility i think)... then have to "earn" it.  what am i whilst i am "earning" this?  a man?  wouldn't i similarly have to "earn" that?  why then would it be assumed by default?  but for some odd reason people not cursed by the gender bug don't have to earn it.  which in my book is just plain skewith.

my gender is female.  no matter what anyone chooses to think.  just like my species is human.  no matter what anyone chooses to think.  i couldn't be a man if i wanted to.

I am a woman, i was born a woman, i was a woman for over 50 years, before i ever told anyone or tried to look like myself. I would have been a woman if i had went to my grave without ever telling anyone or doing anything about it. That is just how it is.

NO way?  the only people you have to convince of this are the women, not any of us for sure, and I've seen just how they can rationalize this.

if nobody accepted you as a woman, would you really believe that you weren't one?  and if so, then do you really think you are in the first place?

Easy, to myself and myself alone I am a woman, but to everyone else I am a transgender until each of them accepts to themselves that I am a woman by thier defininition of what a woman is.  There will always be thse who will never accept me as a woman no matter how much I met the "criteria" and there will be those who find me no different.  I already experience this and unless I could erase my entire background and go where absolutely nobody has ever seen or heard of me before, even after surgery, I will always be looked upon with suspision by some.  It's nothing I can change or do anything about, so I accept the reality of it with no delusions of the right or wrong of it.  It's just the way it is.

By the way, the young woman who wrote the article which was reposted by Sandi is a very close personal friend of mine and the content of that article was prompted by an event in her life and discussions I had with her over the next week about that event.

She overhead a discussion on the subject of if T's were really women or not by a womens group while they didn't know she was present.  All of these women had known her for all or most of her life and helped raise her and knew as much about her as it is possible to know about a person and all were agreed that she fit all the criteria of being a woman and all loved her and had individually cared for her when she was a child and beyond.

She was at first used as an example of a true TS woman, but then questions of uncertainty came up because of the way she had been raised and there was some uncertainty as to if she were truely a woman or had simply "learned" to be correct.

This event shattered Adel in a way I have never seen her before or sense, even though her medical problems and the axiety and fear she went though during that period.

MY point here being that a young T woman who was unquestioned as a woman was actually somewhat contraversial by the very women who not only accepted her as one of them, but who had loved and raised her. I doubt many here could hold their own in a total womans environment any where close to her level and yet her status was questioned, and that by women who loved her.   Kind of cripples my own view of myself in such situations some, even if it doesn't cripple yours, but then you didn't know her as a total person.

*sigh* terri-gene, as much as i do enjoy our debates, this attitude does begin to rile me significantly.  if the following is far too harsh, then please take it with the knowledge that it is a completely knee-jerk emotional reaction, that i just have to get off my chest so-to-speak:

get it through your thick skull that transitioning women are women!!!  stop treating them as though they are two seperate groups of people, please!!!  "the women, not any of us"... yes that is a snippet taken out of context, but the meaning was the same in context... that us transitioning women "don't count" as women.  we do, because we are!  please try to understand this and stop treating us all as though we aren't real women.

sorry about the tone of that, but i felt it needed to be said.

Insert Quote
Quote from: Sandi on Today at 11:32:34 AM
GID doesn't make you a member of the opposite sex.

This makes it sound like becoming a member of the opposite sex is like joining a club.
We have to sign up and fill out an application before we can join the opposite sex club.

Before we joing we have meet the criteria for joining the opposite sex club.   The majoity of the members of the opposite sex club have to accept us as a member before we become one.

Are we male or female because of our bodies or because of our spirits/souls, emotions, and psychic idenity.   If I am a female because of my spirit/soul, emotions, and psychic idenity then I have to come to terms with being a female in the wrong body.   I am a female who has been socialized as a male from birth.   I have had to live with this male body and adapt my female Phyche to it.  People see me as a male and I may never be able to make enough changes to myself to change this.   Women who have had mastectomies and hysterectomies are still women.   Just because my body has male physical attributes that doesn't make me less of a women.

Because I am a women I don't have to appliy for membership.   
By the way where is the embassy to the queendom of womenhood so I can apply for a Visa?

Male and female are just two intellectual categories human organisms have been placed in for societies' purposes.