Being a hispanic person, I take to this idea of Machismo. In no way am I claiming that anyone else need view this in the same light. I am saying this right now, this is my idea of masculinity.

I believe that I should be the better person in many ways. I should be the provider, I should be tough skinned, I should not cry before others, I should always do my best to take care of women. With the last one, I'm sad to say that I am essentially a sexist. You want to know how, then ask, but I'm not volunteering more than that.

I find it an unattractive and humiliating thing for a man to cry before another person, with only slight exception to an SO. The SO has to be of long-term and serious status. Even then, I do not cry before my SO unless it overcomes me. I hate it. I have a goal in life to be the man of the house, to be able to provide my family with enough and some more. I understand I can't give them the world, but I'll try. I want a wife who'll be a housewife, and fortunately that's the goal of my SO before her meeting me. I lucked out with that.

I also feel that I need to appear to be the best. I don't so the best at that with my shy nature, but it does allow me to put on a front. My front is just a stern/angry look. Being hispanic with cholos and gangsters here and there (I don't live in LA, so there aren't too many here) I need to look like a tough guy. I need to be taken in with a grain of salt.

Just like any male animal in nature, I need to be one worthwhile, one worth imitating. I need to be the goat with bigger horns or the peacock with flashier feathers. I am in no way a show off, but I'll do the typical act of "one-up"ing whoever tries to "one-up" me. I'll also jump on the wagon of not being a ->-bleeped-<-.

I vary with my situation because not everyone can take things so lightly, but in the end I have principles that say I'm a man and I'm not weak.

I guess I'm really just wondering how everyone thinks of this and how they perceive their own masculinity.

My gut reaction is "ick."  Sorry.
But you have the right to live however you want.

In my opinion, defining masculinity as the absence of femininity is cowardly, and that is what comes to mind when you say you won't cry in front of others.  Granted, there are plenty of situations in which I wouldn't cry simply because other guys would give me sh*t, so I can understand faking stoicism in the name of safety.  Personally, and fortunately, I live in a liberal area and have artist friends.  To me, crying is participating fully in life, and that isn't gendered.  Also, as an example, my ex bf is ex special forces.  He fought with elite soldiers, and was rewarded for his bravery.  He also is straight, which is why we broke up, but he has no problem with being seen as gay, and he loves to cry when he feels pain.  None of our friends think he is less of a man, and on the rare occasion someone tries to mess with him, he could and has, but doesn't want to, beat their *ss.  The point is, you can be very feminine and masculine at the same time.  It's not an either/ or thing. 

To me being a man means keeping my word, staying true to my values regardless of the consequences, and protecting women, children, the elderly, and anyone else who needs to be protected. 

But those are just my thoughts, and seconded: 

Quote from: crazyandro on April 28, 2011, 07:59:09 PM
My gut reaction is "ick."  Sorry.
But you have the right to live however you want.

It's always interesting hearing people's different perspectives on what exactly masculine means.  I grew up with basically a completely opposite point of view.  With my family and friends, it is usually the women who are more assertive and dominant.  Many of them are better educated and earn more than their spouses/SOs, and generally nobody cares.  I would love to be in the position of being able to care for someone I love, but the thought of having a housewife just seems...beyond odd.  That may just be because I don't know any women who are or have expressed a desire to be one. 

I take to this idea of Machismo. ... this is my idea of masculinity.

Why haven't I filled them out? Why do I keep putting them off? Why?  I talked to my therapist ... My therapist and my SO both say to just go for it.

I can't think of anything less macho than ... I asked my therapist, I asked my GF, I still can't make a decision...  Like anyone who is really macho would care in the least, or even ask around about something they knew was right for them.

I need to look like a tough guy.
Real 'tough guys' don't look tough, they are tough, it oozes from them - form follows function.  Chuck Norris would look tough in Kate Middleton's wedding dress.

I need to be one worthwhile, one worth imitating. I need to be the goat with bigger horns or the peacock with flashier feathers. I am in no way a show off, but I'll do the typical act of "one-up"ing whoever tries to "one-up" me. I'll also jump on the wagon of not being a ->-bleeped-<-.
Dude, you work at Disneyland.  I don't see how any of that follows being a 'character' in a theme park.  A less macho place on earth I can't possibly imagine outside of a Paris runway during Fashion Week.

I really always thought that the entire macho deal was a cultural reaction of Latin men to being surrounded by Latinas, pretty much the fiercest women on earth.  They had to put up that entire 'man up' deal to keep from being ground into the dirt by the point of a stiletto heel.  For all the macho stuff, Latin culture is decidedly matriarchal.  You can take almost any Jewish Princess joke (the Jewish culture being THE most matriarchal culture ever) and substitute Latina and they still work.  What's a Latina do with her ->-bleeped-<- every morning?  Send's him off to work.   Perfect fit.

white girl: If I catch you cheating on me we are so over.
Latina:  If I catch you cheating I'm going to cut your balls off.
And, oh yeah, the white girl is kidding, she'll sob, she'll cry, she'll stay.  The Latina is not kidding in the least, you better run if she catches you.

Wolf Man, I kinda fall in the same boat.  I am not Hispanic, but European and I try to be a gentleman in all things.  I don't believe in crying in front of others and I want to be the provider for my family just like you.  I am eerie quiet unless I know people which gives its own toughness. I don't care so much about the tough look though.  I suppose when I am riding my Harley, I can fit the bill since I prefer the more old school look, but otherwise I just prefer the confident well dressed look.  My job does not require dressing up so I normally wear jeans and a designer polo with high end cologne with no synthetics.  Which is a great conversation starter with ladies because most men don't spend a lot of money on cologne so I smell different.  I think the way I do things speaks volumes for who I am, the pride I have in myself and I have a ton of respect, plus nobody messes with me. 

Honestly, I see machismo and shows of stereotypical masculinity as just that; a stereotype that has little to do with what I think matters when it comes to being a man.   Crying, to me, is not a sign of weakness nearly so much as other things like lying, bigotry, sexism, bullying, and otherwise not standing up for those who need it or trying to be controlling in all situations when it isn't warranted.  Personally, I think men that try to control women or are threatened by a woman working or earning more than them are usually insecure and compensating.  'Traditional values' are harmful to men and women, on principle they create inequality and resentment.  The human condition is to be scared, but I've always viewed the true cowards as those who spend so much time posturing and trying to convince others (and themselves) that they are not, and criticizing those who don't meet certain arbitrary standards for masculinity.  That's not being a man, that's being a fake.

I don't care about being perceived as tough, I know I can handle myself if the situation calls for it and all peaceful mediation fails.  I also don't care about being thought of/seen as 'a ->-bleeped-<-', again, that's an archaic notion that gay men by default aren't masculine.  I'm a strong person, in many ways, but I don't care if that's not obvious to those who don't know me well; to most, I'm a well meaning goof who's always cracking jokes.  I've got a fairly dominant personality, but above all I believe in fairness.  I love strong women, and I love working along side them and under them.  I know when I'm beaten in leadership ability and experience, and I'd never try to one-up or overtake anyone who's earned their position over me.

Masculinity is very much YMMV of course, but I grew up with a father who had some very traditional notions of masculinity, so I abhor them.  He was an abusive alcoholic, and was entirely dependent on my mother for guidance and emotional security.  When she was young she wanted to be a housewife, but once her kids were in school it wasn't enough and she needed to do something for her; to have her own life and career, (as women should be encouraged to believe they deserve and are entitled to).  My dad, however, couldn't handle that, became increasingly emotionally abusive to her, all while being the sole bread winner and resenting the hell out of everyone for it. 

My dad is still homophobic, racist, slightly sexist, and angry at the world.  Because I was living as a heterosexual female with a boyfriend for 6 years, I will forever be just 'a ->-bleeped-<-' to him, but I'm positive that as I am now I am already more of a man than he'll ever be.  I take responsibility for my actions, and I blame no one else for my failings.   So, no, my masculinity doesn't involve subjugating women to make me feel better about myself or the lack of control in my life( I'm speaking about my experiences with men like this, not you Wolf Man).    I do not feel that women need to be 'taken care of', many young women today are a lot more educated and independent than young men, which I find remarkable when the media does everything it can to convince women their worth is mostly or solely based on their appearance.  I'm still a feminist, as much as a guy can be, anyways.   I suppose I could be viewed as weak or unmanly for that, luckily it wouldn't bother me, manhood is what you make of it.  *shrugs*

Quote from: Bahzi on April 28, 2011, 08:48:45 PM
that's an archaic notion that gay men by default aren't masculine

You reminded me of this.  It's slightly off topic, but I thought I'd share anyways. 

Most of the gay men I know, those in my age range, are damn good in a fight, they had to be.  No running to the teacher and crying about being bullied - they had to learn to defend themselves, and did.

And it seems that physically you might be living in 2011 California, but mentally that's pretty much 1800 Mississippi.

@ Lee:  thanks for that link!  i almost fell down laughing at that

I second everything he said. But here's what stands out to me.

Quote from: Bahzi on April 28, 2011, 08:48:45 PM
Crying, to me, is not a sign of weakness nearly so much as other things like lying, bigotry, sexism, bullying, and otherwise not standing up for those who need it or trying to be controlling in all situations when it isn't warranted. 

My dad is still homophobic, racist, slightly sexist, and angry at the world.  Because I was living as a heterosexual female with a boyfriend for 6 years, I will forever be just 'a ->-bleeped-<-' to him, but I'm positive that as I am now I am already more of a man than he'll ever be.  I take responsibility for my actions, and I blame no one else for my failings.   

This is a perfect example of who I want to be as a person. I have always felt that there could be no greater pride than to know you have earned the respect of others by being a man (or for women, too) of principal, being honest, being truthful and honorable. Those are values that matter to me. And his words there are also inspirational to me, because it reminds me, for all of the people that make fun of me for not being feminine like I'm "supposed to be" (I'm not 100% out to the world as trans), but I am a better person than they are because I am truthful, I don't bully or belittle others, I'm not bigoted or prejudiced. Those things mean so much more. So much more. Character is what I strive for more than anything. And to me, that means I need to control my anger better as well, and not resort to being a brute. Just because I can fight equal to a biological man doesn't mean I should. I want to be a better than that.

I don't know what masculinity is, I guess it's a lot of wrestling instead of hugging and also punching. It's also playing 'gay chicken', and making near-constant jokes about being gay yourself. This is the masculinity I've observed from peers my age. The girls can climb on each other, playing with each other's hair, commenting each other's bodies, etc, but the guys can't.

In my new class, however, the guys aren't like that. One of them loves Twilight, action films (his favourite is Inglorious Basterds), and romantic comedies. We all watch My Little Pony: Friendship Is Magic. When a new girl in class, dressed in Gothic Lolita fashion and looking like a little princess, challenged us in arm wrestling, she beat us all. There are little to no sex jokes, and absolutely no gay jokes. Nobody touches others before asking first. My dream job would be programming, and this summer I'll work in a Salvation Army store. I fit in a lot more in my new class, but I still get along well with guys in general.

I'm not sure if I'm masculine, feminine or neither.

respect of others by being a man (or for women, too) of principal, being honest, being truthful and honorable.

Yeah, that's a given, lacking that stuff you will not even get to earn the respect, which mostly consists of "show up, shut up, do the work."  Work, how good you are at it, in combination with how much you make (successful business types), how much prestige there is attached to it (doctor, lawyer, full college professor), or how cool/manly it is (construction, firemen, rock concerts, working at River Rouge) is pretty much how guys judge other guys.  The next thing most guys ask after your name is "what do you do."

If you are a thief, or a liar your gone before you even get going.  No one in real life, not men or women, put up with that kind of crap for more than a New York Second.  Male or female, if you are not true to your word, you're useless in reality.

Beyond that you should have a huge sense of humor, thick skin, be able to get as well as you give, not take anything other than work and family too seriously, tolerate differences, don't pick on those weaker than you, don't back down to people stronger than you, protect if needed.  If you can't handle your liquor or drugs don't do them, no one will think less of you for that - but pass out and all bets are off, sharpies are your friend.

I'm proud of my masculinity. I am a man – of course I want to be seen as strong, brave and tough because to me that's manly. I pride myself on stoicism in certain situations but I don't have a problem showing a sensitive side either. I don't pound my chest or put others down or think less of anyone else to be seen in that way. I have had girl friends tell me it's my energy that makes them feel safe walking down the street with me or sitting in a bar, and the fact I look like a bouncer!

But it's not because I talk it up or treat them as second class citizens or delicate flowers – the chicks around me would kick my ass black and blue if I acted like that! Though they do appreciate the protective quality in my personality – I'll defend those who can't defend themselves be them female, child, animal or another man til I can no more.

In Webster's masculinity is defined obviously as qualities and appearances generally associated with men. Macho is defined as a man who is aggressively proud of his masculinity. A chauvinist is a person with a prejudiced belief in the superiority of his or her own kind. And a sexist is generally a male chauvinist with a chauvinistic belief in the inferiority of women.

There is nothing wrong with feeling like a proud man; I too am a proud man. It's when you do it at the expense of others that you're no longer just being masculine but bigoted. I am all for each to their own but it's a little two-faced to think of women in this way having been born as one of them!

Now I never felt like a girl or a woman for those of you screaming this having just read my last sentence. I like many of you always knew I was supposed to have been born male, but I did live my first 25 odd years on this planet as one of them, even treated as a woman from time to time. If it were me I would feel hypocritical to in turn treat a woman as inferior or even to have that mentality.

QuoteMy gut reaction is "ick."  Sorry.
But you have the right to live however you want.

^ This.

It does explain though why smart, talented, and motivated Latinas tend not to marry Latins in ever increasing numbers.

I'm not interested in trying to live up to someone's idea of what a man is supposed to be. And I don't have any interest in asking other people to live up to my idea of what a man (or a woman) is supposed to be. Frankly, I'm not sure I even have any such ideas.

Other people would generally describe me as masculine. In the gay community, I'm (legitimately) "straight-acting." But I'm not acting - this is just me. Quietly dominant, competitive, respectful, emotionally reserved, drawn to physical work and rough play, a "fixer" rather than a "talker." But that stuff doesn't make me a man; a woman could have all those qualities. And my dad's ten times the man I'll ever be and straight to boot, and he's gentle, cooperative, non-competitive, physically unassuming and emotionally open. If I could be more like him - more 'feminine' in a lot of ways - I'd be a better man for it. Because in the end, being a good man is just being a good human being.

Sorry, too busy being a gentleman to think about being macho

Malinkibear I have no idea where you get these images but I love them!!! 


Sorry, I had to say it.... back on topic.

I've got to be, a macho man.

Quote from: malinkibear on April 29, 2011, 11:48:23 AM
Sorry, too busy being a gentleman to think about being macho

Is that a dog?