Quote from: Sharky on April 30, 2011, 12:58:39 AM
I've got to be, a macho man.


Is that a dog?

I've actually no idea 

Quote from: malinkibear on April 30, 2011, 01:40:18 AM
I've actually no idea 

I was trying to figure it out. It looks really small compared to the floor boards. I though it might be a dwarf hamster, but it has a back nose. I don't think hamsters can have black noses.

Whatever it is it's amazing hahah.

I don't think I could have a wife who stayed at home... I think in this day and age you have to make a loootttt of money to be one man who takes care of a wife and kids with a house and car. Even then I wouldn't want to do that, probably because when I was growing up as a women if a man wanted that from me I would be extremely offended and the idea of that still angers me. I would never expect that from any girl.

I can be a bit of a feminist in mind, but I don't like to show it... right? 'Cause women can stand up for themselves, they don't need a man to do it for them...

The extent of my masculinity socially is that I like anything marketed for men, like clothes, body wash, etc. etc. basically if anything is gendered I have the "for men" brand. I want to be muscular so I work out and exercise everyday. I like programming, web developing,  video games and beer... but again this is just in terms of masculinity that is socially constructed. Other than that... I'm not Mr. tough guy, I don't try to one-up anyone, that's annoying, I don't talk about 'how many girls I've banged' to my friends, don't like sports and all that crap.

Quote from: crazyandro on April 28, 2011, 07:59:09 PM
My gut reaction is "ick."  Sorry.
But you have the right to live however you want.

I feel the same.

I'm not even sure what makes something masculine but from what people tend to think masculine is I guess i'm pretty masculine, I dress masculine, listen to metal, when I can i'll grow facial hair etc but I wont hide my femininty, i'm comfortable with my gender and gender expression. I don't feel the need to be super macho.

Also it's horribly sexist to think that crying or not being tough is bad because that's a woman thing.

Quote from: Nathan. on April 30, 2011, 08:23:04 AM
Also it's horribly sexist that to think that crying or not being tough is bad because that's a woman thing.

I agree.

I have sat back and read replies but now I have to pipe up, because I am personally starting to take offense.

For any of you that think not crying in front of others is a sexist thing, or makes you less of a person... you are very wrong. 
There are a multitude of factors that can influence a person's not wanting to cry in front of others.  Some of the factors are age, culture, upbringing, religion and personal past among others.  The beauty of the human race is the fact we are not clones and have individual thought.   
I did not cry at my father's funeral and he was and still is my idol in life, does that make me sexist or less of a person... NO, and I dare anybody to tell me different.  None of you know my past or anything about me, yet people make general comments.   I encourage everybody to consider what may be said, the context and remember we are all different with a different story.

Quote from: Jigsaw on April 30, 2011, 01:30:39 PM
I have sat back and read replies but now I have to pipe up, because I am personally starting to take offense.

For any of you that think not crying in front of others is a sexist thing, or makes you less of a person... you are very wrong. 
There are a multitude of factors that can influence a person's not wanting to cry in front of others.  Some of the factors are age, culture, upbringing, religion and personal past among others.  The beauty of the human race is the fact we are not clones and have individual thought.   
I did not cry at my father's funeral and he was and still is my idol in life, does that make me sexist or less of a person... NO, and I dare anybody to tell me different.  None of you know my past or anything about me, yet people make general comments.   I encourage everybody to consider what may be said, the context and remember we are all different with a different story.

There's nothing bad about not crying in front of others. I was always horribly embarrassed about breaking down in tears, and one of my favourite effects of T is that I don't cry anymore.

It is, however, sexist (and destructive, and hurtful to other men) to believe that crying in front of others is objectively a bad thing, that it shows weakness, that it's only acceptable for women because they're supposed to be weak, that a man who cries is somehow less of a man. It takes a lot of strength to be comfortable showing emotion publicly - a different kind of strength, a kind I don't have. My dad does, and like I said, he's more of a man than I'll ever be.

Quote from: Jigsaw on April 30, 2011, 01:30:39 PM
I have sat back and read replies but now I have to pipe up, because I am personally starting to take offense.

For any of you that think not crying in front of others is a sexist thing, or makes you less of a person... you are very wrong. 

Except that no one said that, at all... O_o  They said that the idea that crying in front of others automatically makes one weak or woman-like was sexist and not true, which is what the OP was asserting.  No one said the opposite, I think you were misreading or jumping to conclusions.

Masculinity to me is displaying the traditional male attitude, or living the stereotype.  I like to look masculine, but my mindset is the completely opposite.  To each is their own.  I certainly am on different wavelengths as you.  Kudos to your pride.  Be very aware the very idea of machismo is probably changing as we speak.  I understand different cultures have less change and hold to the tradition (or even stereotype, lol) but in general I think the terms of masculinity vs. femininity-- they are not what they were even 10 years ago.  "Live like you wanna live baby!" 

ah the great irony of being an open minded community...everyone can see masculinity how they choose, but here's all the reasons why your view is wrong.
I don't think it's a terrible thing for you to have this view of masculinity. It's obviously a big part of your culture and upbringing and if there are certain things you'd like to continue then good for you. You clearly stated it was your own view and no one else has to agree so if it works for you go with it.
I think I've been raised with similar values. I was raised by two incredibly tough women who I wouldn't want to mess with in a fight but simple things like opening jars for them or holding doors just feel masculine. Always being the one to build everything in the garden or the toys at Christmas, doing any heavy lifting, fixing anything to do with the car.
As long as you aren't forcing anyone else to believe the same things you believe then you be the best man you know how to be whether that's Oscar Wilde or Clint Eastwood.

I knew I'd receive such offense to the things I said, but I want to thank Logan and Joey for understanding that it's my own stance and I in no way wish it upon others.

I'd like to thank Tekla for his brutal honesty. I respect anyone who sticks to their views despite anything.

I'd like to let the "feminists" know that I am in no way pushing my views upon others and believe that feminism is pushing women a little too far. They have said they are feminists and for the choice of women, yet I've seen many do as you do. They are furious that a women would want to do anything that isn't independent of men such as being a housewife or even doing pornography. I still believe women have this choice, even in terms of birth. I never have or will suggest a woman to be a housewife for me, it's simply something I strive for and I have an SO who strives for it as well.

I enjoy hearing everyone's idea of masculinity. It really does let me in on what's going on around me. I follow a stereotype because it's the only thing I really know to be masculine. My SO does not appreciate it, yet I can't break from it. Tekla is right in that there a so many things wrong with this ideology and my way of living currently. I see that and it really is a big cause of this mess of feelings I have, but I still follow it. I will follow this idea of masculinity until I become a strong enough man to be like kyril's dad.

And to Aussie Jay: I see my wrong in certain feelings because I was female myself, but I still stick to these feelings. I feel like having been subject to a female body/life I can find justice in some things I think, but I even find truth in it that trumps what I think. Despite what shows me to not think in these ways, I do. And until I can see the man in myself, then I will do what I can to be seen as a man to this society.

Feel free to comment more on your types of masculinity or on anyone elses or my OP or this. Yeah. Thank you all for contributing.

Quote from: Wolf Man on May 01, 2011, 12:08:00 PM
I'd like to let the "feminists" know that I am in no way pushing my views upon others and believe that feminism is pushing women a little too far. They have said they are feminists and for the choice of women, yet I've seen many do as you do. They are furious that a women would want to do anything that isn't independent of men such as being a housewife or even doing pornography.

Please talk to more feminists or something, all the feminists I know have no problem with women being hosewives or being in porn, it's all about choice. It's actually anti feminist to shame other women for their choices.

Quote from: Nathan. on May 01, 2011, 12:17:54 PM


Please talk to more feminists or something, all the feminists I know have no problem with women being hosewives or being in porn, it's all about choice. It's actually anti feminist to shame other women for their choices.

ditto; please talk to other feminists.  I'd try to elaborate, but there are others who can do that much better. 

wow, things have turned awkward here. calling a bunch of transguys who disagree with macho feminists when they didn't say they were actually made me giggle. unfortunately up to this date a lot of feminists will argue that being a transguy one could not at the same time be a feminist. i'm glad it still works for pointing fingers though.

to Wolf Man: i hope you're not going to take this the wrong way...but you mentioned that your significant other doesn't like your macho attitude and later on you even identified it as a pattern you adapted in order to mask insecurities.
you may be trying to distance yourself from "the former you" by mimicking what the men you grow up among did to display masculinity. but not everything about our past selves is "bad"...one of the "advantages" of being a transguy, so to speak, is that we don't need to treat women like aliens - because they're not. most of us are used to women around us, due to how we were socialized (forced or not). that way, we actually have a broader scope of socialization than most people. that's a good thing, there's no need to reject it, because it broadens your horizon, imho.

I am not a feminist. I may have feminist mind-set tendencies? but that is because I grew up being a tomboy woman and it was frustrating to deal with sexism while living as a woman. So now that I am a transgender female-to-male why I would become the man I hated dealing with as a woman because "I can" now?

I am not against your ways, I just personally don't understand it and think some of it is sexist based on my life experiences but it's interesting to read regardless.

Quote from: Wolf Man on May 01, 2011, 12:08:00 PMAnd to Aussie Jay: I see my wrong in certain feelings because I was female myself, but I still stick to these feelings. I feel like having been subject to a female body/life I can find justice in some things I think, but I even find truth in it that trumps what I think. Despite what shows me to not think in these ways, I do. And until I can see the man in myself, then I will do what I can to be seen as a man to this society.

I've been waiting to see what you wrote next mate! I have no problem with opinion obviously I have my own too. I do apologise if you thought I didn't support the fact you're entitled to yours..

I'm attempting to understand what you're trying to say above - are you saying that because of your female body you justify feeling that women are inferior? Because you know they're weaknesses and the effects of emotion etc?? I don't mean offence if I've misunderstood.

It really sounds reading "despite what shows me to not think in these ways, I do. And until I can see the man in myself, then I will do what I can to be seen as a man to this society" that you don't want to see things the way you do.

It sounds like you don't enjoy the views you do but feel them necessary to be seen as a man. The most important person's opinion is yours mate! It's what you think, how you feel about your manhood and masculinity - about being true to yourself.

I guess I took the opposite view having been born female, a similar sort of stance to JayUnit I guess.  I look at it like well I was a strong "woman". I was a butch, manly, masculine "woman". And I hated, really hated when guys would treat me as less than equal.

I can appreciate the physical differences between the sexes but at least give me the opportunity – don't treat me as inferior. And now on the other side of the coin, where I always should have been, I know how it made me feel to be treated like that and I can't imagine treating a woman as less than equal!

If what written in the OP are your real beliefs stick to them mate no matter what people think. As someone stated before so long as you don't expect everyone to share your opinion...

Thanks Aussie Jay. You got it right for the most part. I feel that I understand the inferiority of women having lived as one and having a body that functions as such.

I can see what you and JayUnit mean by having been there and not wanting to subjugate. Also I don't think I've ever been like either of you in terms of being proud in the masculinity I had as a female. I also shoved it off as me just being a man underneath it all and I was subject to personal discomfort when people knew I was female and expected something different from what I was.

I'd also like to go back on what you said of me not really wanting to feel this way. I would like for me to become confident in my masculinity so that I can have emotions and not be ashamed, but not crying exactly.

Wolf man one day you'll be old what you going to do then become a vampire?

More to the point this talk of subjugation, the world is full of weak men and women and it is the weak who have the need to subjugate.  Because we each can only subjugate ourselves.  I know this takes cognitive ability to understand.

Quote from: Wolf Man on May 02, 2011, 10:48:33 AMAlso I don't think I've ever been like either of you in terms of being proud in the masculinity I had as a female. I also shoved it off as me just being a man underneath it all and I was subject to personal discomfort when people knew I was female and expected something different from what I was.
I'd also like to go back on what you said of me not really wanting to feel this way. I would like for me to become confident in my masculinity so that I can have emotions and not be ashamed, but not crying exactly.

I always knew I was supposed to have been born male and it used to make me insanely angry when guys thought I should be more girly because it just wasn't me! But it wasn't the card I was dealt so did the best I could as I thought living as 'female' was the only choice I had for so long.  I never felt right living as a 'woman' but the masculine parts of my personality was the only thing that got me through – the fact that I wasn't really a girl! It is kind of what helped me decide to take hormones – I really enjoyed the masculine parts of my personality and body, and what better way to enhance them than with T!

May I ask are you on T or started therapy? Like (assuming you are) is your transition in motion - something to look forward to I mean. I felt helpless before I started to actually do something about the feelings I had. Like I tried extra hard to pass and my actions were probably a little more macho that I actually was – is that kind of what you feel like (but maybe a little stronger)? Or do you actually believe that inferiority exists in women, apart from an actual physical difference between some men and some women and that they actually are subordinate??

Quote from: crazyandro on April 28, 2011, 07:59:09 PM
My gut reaction is "ick."  Sorry.
But you have the right to live however you want.

I have to agree.  Though I would rethink my friendship towards a person who expressed such rampant sexism.