Some folks will argue that we, all of us, need to raise awareness by coming out as much as possible, especially if we "pass" well and nobody would ever know unless we told them. Such a practice might--MIGHT--speed up our access to equality, but it would ruin a lot of individual lives. A lot of us would wind up homeless, jobless, maimed, dead because a lot of cis people other us. Some trans people don't seem to mind taking the risk. Some have no choice.

I feel othered by my coworker because she went out of her way to find out more about me, convey that knowledge to me, and ask questions that I felt were intrusive. And she's a fairly decent person, I think--curious rather than hostile. But I feel exposed at work now. I feel like I'm on stage, playing out a role, waiting for the other shoe to drop. I deeply resent her for putting me in this position, even if she did it out of ignorance. But here, I had no choice in the matter.

Even though her intentions were benevolent and even though she was acting ignorantly, I feel othered. I know she sees me differently now. (In turn, I now view her with some suspicion.)

But what about when we out ourselves to people who would not otherwise have known? Do we other ourselves when we come out as trans? Do we other ourselves when we come out as trans and go out of our way to disclose pre-op or non-op genital status? I feel that we do, but maybe it depends on the circumstances. I feel that when we decide that this part of our lives is SO important that we are obligated to out ourselves to other people, even those we aren't sleeping with, then we other ourselves. But I'm not sure how I feel about other types of situations.

I would love to hear other perspectives.

As has been said more than once (first time I remember it in an interview was Renee Richards), I did not go through this to be a trans anything.  I also like the comments recently made by Nikki Araguz that basically denote it as a birth defect that has been fixed.  I am a person, not a cause.

A reporter for a local newspaper here interviewed me over the phone years ago.I did not mind answering all the questions,they were pretty straight forward and not overly personal.But since then i think people are becoming obsessed with what other people are doing privately and publicly.I think it is fueled by this "information age" and the media.Some almost look at it as their "right" to know what your up to..They make me sick.....get a life....I would not even be surprised if my neighbors across the street watch me with binoculars.Thats how messed up people are today.Yeah, and they post these kind of  headlines all over( Federal agents arrest iowa farmer) Why?..He was a new york mobster wanted for murder,racketeering,etc..He dropped out of sight about 15 or more years ago,bought a farm in iowa, lived there,befriended  his neighbors,tended to his livestock,model citizen i guess.How did he get caught?..HIS NEIGHBORS! getting to nosey .These headlines "look who you could be living next too" are getting way to much

While I try to avoid the issue as much as I can, by not telling people things that they don't need to know, I have to say that when it happens I really don't care.

There are so many ways to be othered that one more makes no difference.

Let me give you an example. For nearly ten years I worked for BBC TV as a video editor. I always wanted to make the jump into the more creative side of TV, but it was almost impossible because as soon as someone on the creative side knew that you were "technical" they looked at you differently and no matter how creative you actually were they would be unlikely to take your ideas seriously.

Basically that is the same effect right there and it has nothing to do with being or not being trans.

My point is that "othering" is an occupational hazard of being alive  - so on the whole it is probably better to try and accept that fact and quit worrying about it, and anyway basically if someone is going to be so silly as to allow themselves to be blinded by a label then I can't be bothered to deal with them.

Quote from: rejennyrated on May 01, 2011, 05:15:32 PMThere are so many ways to be othered that one more makes no difference.

Let me give you an example. For nearly ten years I worked for BBC TV as a video editor. I always wanted to make the jump into the more creative side of TV, but it was almost impossible because as soon as someone on the creative side knew that you were "technical" they looked at you differently and no matter how creative you actually were they would be unlikely to take your ideas seriously.

Basically that is the same effect right there and it has nothing to do with being or not being trans.

Not many people have gotten beat up, raped, or killed for being "technical', or had their lives completely ruined for it, so our situation is somewhat different.  I think that disclosing our past to most people does make them see us very differently, as Arch well pointed out, and yes those are the cold hard facts of life. I do not see myself as anything other than a woman, so I am not going to go around making it a point that other people will see me any differently either.  Some will in any case, and I suppos that is unavoidable.  Otherwise I will only disclose on a strictly need to know basis, such as doctors or whatever.  I see my past as the thing that was "other", and increasingly less relevant to my life now the more time passes since I completed my transition.  To me an altruistic obligation to other myself is not a good enough reason to do so, considering all that I might stand to lose.

Well to be fair I did start by saying

Quote from: rejennyrated on May 01, 2011, 05:15:32 PM
I try to avoid the issue as much as I can, by not telling people things that they don't need to know...

So I don't routinely go around putting myself in that situation. My comments were directed to those rare occasions when you simply cant avoid it.

I disagree with the basic premise that 'coming out' if you are well integrated does anything to help the "trans issue". If a person is fully integrated and announces their trans status, they simply lower people's opinion of the individual rather than raise the opinion of trans people. The ones who WILL change public opinion are the youngsters who are now going through transition at younger and younger ages - their success and naturalness give people a picture they can fathom.

I am not "out" thought I was outed 15 years ago by gossip leaked from a medical clinic and I lost a few friends over it and some people have treated me different ever since. I was fully integrated and accepted as a member of the community, just another woman, but the rumors put a dent in that and it is still present (on a very small scale). What did it accomplish? Not a damned thing! I would rather that it could just be wiped out because it has nothing to do with who I am.

Quote from: Sarah7 on May 01, 2011, 06:17:26 PM
. Besides, I'm awesome, which obviously overwhelms any other considerations.

I wish i would have said that

Quote from: Northern Jane on May 01, 2011, 06:49:14 PM
I disagree with the basic premise that 'coming out' if you are well integrated does anything to help the "trans issue". If a person is fully integrated and announces their trans status, they simply lower people's opinion of the individual rather than raise the opinion of trans people. The ones who WILL change public opinion are the youngsters who are now going through transition at younger and younger ages - their success and naturalness give people a picture they can fathom.

I tend to think of it as a generational thing, too, a long-term process that won't change overnight, even if every single trans person in America simultaneously came out to every single person he or she knew. I don't doubt that there would be some positive impact from a mass coming-out, but there would be plenty of negative effects, and I seriously doubt that the result would be as instantly edenic as some folks seem to believe. That just isn't how people work.

I am out.
I am open about my trans status.

In part I think that's because I live in a country which is really quite open and accepting. I mean, yeah, sure, there's a handful of jerkwad ignorant douchenozzles around, but those are really hard to eradicate though simple information tends to thin the herd an awful lot.
I know that in part it's because I was raised in a family which doesn't think all that much of it and has been amazingly supportive throughout this whole mess.

But what I believe makes the most difference is that I myself refuse to view my trans status as something that takes away from my gender identity or value as a human being.
I refuse to consider trans men less than men and trans women less than women.
I do not see trans as "less than".
I do not see trans as something greater than hair-colour or height or anything like that in context of how human we are.
I do not see trans as a defining label any more than any of these other things.

So yes. I am a trans man. Does that make me less of a man to you?
I'm also a graying, brown haired man who consistently dyes his hair blue. Does that make me less of a man to you?
I'm also a mother to my daugher, the only one she'll ever really have. Does that make me less of a man to you?
I'm also an artist, a lover, a patient, a student, an amateur philosopher, an avid reader, a this, a that and a thousand things more. Do any of them make me less of a man to you?

If yes, then the problem isn't that these things inherently  make me less of a  man, the problem is that you can't see past these things and allow them to make you think less of me than there is just cause to.

I refuse to take other people's lack of ability to see me as who I am and make it mine.

I refuse to participate in the 'othering' of trans people by making 'trans' something other.

In that, I probably give others reason to other me more than otherwise.

I just recently decided it would be wise to out myself on facebook to raise awareness. I was 100% stealth, and my FB friends were like (REALLY I HAD NO IDEA).

This would be a substantial risk if it were not for my understanding that who I am is not defined by what other people think to me or what I have.

I believe that this concept of stealth undermines the spreading of information on the topic. It then becomes a taboo and we end up becoming ostracized.

IDK, just a thought.

I had an interesting response from a female colleague, and close friend, when I sort of accidentally came out to her. Her first comment was that's fine doesn't concern her at all, her second comment was more interesting. Why don't you live as Cindy full time? I've always looked at you as a person who does what they want and have to do. I've always respected that in you because it has made me stronger. When I explained why, she said she totally agreed, but she was surprised that I hadn't been living FT from the beginning of my career, which would have meant that stuff I face now would not matter.

Cindy

Quote from: Barbara on May 01, 2011, 04:45:38 PM
A reporter for a local newspaper here interviewed me over the phone years ago.I did not mind answering all the questions,they were pretty straight forward and not overly personal.But since then i think people are becoming obsessed with what other people are doing privately and publicly.I think it is fueled by this "information age" and the media.Some almost look at it as their "right" to know what your up to..They make me sick.....get a life....I would not even be surprised if my neighbors across the street watch me with binoculars.Thats how messed up people are today.Yeah, and they post these kind of  headlines all over( Federal agents arrest iowa farmer) Why?..He was a new york mobster wanted for murder,racketeering,etc..He dropped out of sight about 15 or more years ago,bought a farm in iowa, lived there,befriended  his neighbors,tended to his livestock,model citizen i guess.How did he get caught?..HIS NEIGHBORS! getting to nosey .These headlines "look who you could be living next too" are getting way to much

Well put ! ellen

The only people that will ever know are the ones that knew me pre-transition.

I'm not ashamed of who I am, but it's not something I'm proud of either. I want to leave my past in the past. It's no ones business. I feel I have every right to keep that private, even to the person I marry. If it's something that I don't care for remembering and doesn't represent me anymore then I don't want to bring it up. After working so hard to transition, I'll just want it to be left alone as the past and never mention it.

Though those who do know, I want them to know enough about the situation so they can try and understand it and see me as a regular female.
So I don't mind answering their questions and explaining it.

Quote from: Barbara on May 01, 2011, 04:45:38 PM
A reporter for a local newspaper here interviewed me over the phone years ago.I did not mind answering all the questions,they were pretty straight forward and not overly personal.But since then i think people are becoming obsessed with what other people are doing privately and publicly.I think it is fueled by this "information age" and the media.Some almost look at it as their "right" to know what your up to..They make me sick.....get a life....I would not even be surprised if my neighbors across the street watch me with binoculars.Thats how messed up people are today.Yeah, and they post these kind of  headlines all over( Federal agents arrest iowa farmer) Why?..He was a new york mobster wanted for murder,racketeering,etc..He dropped out of sight about 15 or more years ago,bought a farm in iowa, lived there,befriended  his neighbors,tended to his livestock,model citizen i guess.How did he get caught?..HIS NEIGHBORS! getting to nosey .These headlines "look who you could be living next too" are getting way to much

OMG this is so true.  I have problem with my neighbours.    And I agree, I think there are people who honestly believe they should know all your business, that it is their RIGHT, ffs!!!  I've had harassment because I wouldn't play the game but luckily a few choice words within their hearing, they backed down, after 1 year of c*ap!!  (I was talking to a friend on my mobile outside and said I was reporting every single **** he was doing!) See? They were listening as well as watching!! I think my best option is to move still! 

Quote from: Rabbit on May 07, 2011, 04:10:53 AM
So... your argument of why we should be less nosey... is because this "right to know" catches murderers? Or rapists? Or all kinds of other horrible things?....

Nope, I don't get it.

True, I'm glad the guy got caught and good on whoever put him in.  He certainly didn't deserve to live the good life after what he's done.

I think in my case anyway, I have people who have 'no life' and I'm an easy target.  I've had good neighbours before and hopefully when I move, I will have them again. Some people are just haters. 

Quote from: Rabbit on May 07, 2011, 04:10:53 AM
So... your argument of why we should be less nosey... is because this "right to know" catches murderers? Or rapists? Or all kinds of other horrible things?....

That's not what I took away from Barbara's post, but I suppose she could have made a more explicit connection between her point and the mobster story.

I feel that she's saying that this guy's neighbors were so obsessed with observing him and keeping track of him that their nosiness finally turned up some detail or other that got him caught. And she implies that people are so intrusive that we trans folks could easily be outed by similar people in our own neighborhoods--even though we haven't done anything wrong. But people are always looking for dirt on others.

BTW, I did a cursory search about this odd story, but I didn't find anything about especially nosy neighbors.

I am "other" in a number of ways, in terms of my religious beliefs, my political beliefs, my sexual orientation, my relationship with my family, and, of course, my trans status (including my genital status). I've been experimenting with a more open life, but it isn't working well. Outside of my circle of friends and the larger gay community, I still don't feel that I can be open about any of these aspects of my life without attracting curiosity and prying questions--not to mention downright bigotry, which could result in a loss of opportunity or well-being. And even in the gay community, I'm careful when I talk about certain things.

I tried being more open about some of this stuff, and I feel that it has only made my life harder and more uncomfortable. Nice experiment, but it's going to end here. I don't see any need to go about trumpeting that I'm an X, a Y, or a Z when that would tend to other me. For example, just because I'm obsessed over my atypical sexual equipment does not mean that I need to tell others, even if they've become pretty good friends.

Except, paradoxically, I'm still of two minds over whether I should come out as trans to certain people, even though such a disclosure would probably wind up straying into a discussion of my equipment. Why am I torn? I'm still not sure. I guess it's a combination of factors. One issue is that other people think we're not who we say we are--we are seen as deceptive--and so a lot of people think they DO have a right to know. This attitude, to me, is a form of othering, and I don't want to buy into it.

I know a gal who doesn't like to talk about her first marriage, and she doesn't. A lot of people who know her don't know she was married before. It's her business, not theirs. She doesn't go around thinking of herself as dishonest for withholding this information. She thinks of it as a private affair.

I also had a friend who had an abortion. Physically, it was no big deal--pretty painless, with no complications. Psychologically, it was a huge freaking big deal. When she found out that I was pregnant, worried as hell, and planning an abortion, she told me about her experiences. This was not something that she shared with other people. It's none of their damned business, no matter how much they might argue that they have a right to know. She is not obligated to tell them.

So, in the same spirit, why should I feel obligated to tell people that I used to live as a woman or that my genitals are not like most men's? If they want to google me and they find out that I'm trans, that's one thing--it's bad enough if that happens, but who the hell are they to EXPECT me to out myself voluntarily? I don't expect them to tell me about things that make them uncomfortable, and I feel that they shouldn't expect me to talk about stuff that distresses me. They're not dishonest when they don't share these things, and I'm not dishonest when I keep my trans status to myself.

One reason many of us don't out ourselves is that we still get too many negative responses. That's a problem, but it stems from other people's othering of us. I think that we ourselves can take on that act of othering when we behave as if we're so different that we feel obligated to tell (warn?) people of that difference. I think that more than anything else, the whole aura of deception that accompanies trans-ness is a form of othering that makes it very difficult for some of us to feel perfectly justified in keeping our private lives private. And that's a crying shame.