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Marriage question regarding US Federal status.

Started by Cowboi, May 01, 2011, 10:39:26 PM

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Cowboi

Okay, so my fiancee and I have been discussing the idea of getting married sometime in the near future but we are kind of curious about how hard some of the items will be for us. I'm hoping someone may have personal experience or know someone who has gone through this.

Our basic situation in literal terms:
I was born female, live as male but have not legally changed my gender or had any surgeries. Not currently on hormones but have been in the past. My name is changed and the DMV has changed my marker on my license (in Nebraska you only need a doctors letter saying you meet the social requirements to fit a certain gender to have the marker changed so this is in no way a legal thing at all, just for appearances on the ID I guess).

She was born male, lives as female and has had her gender legally changed. Her name has been changed. Also no surgeries and currently not on hormones but has been in the past. Iowa would not allow her to change her birth certificate gender so on that she is still listed as male.


So our situation in legal terms:
We are both legally female, but based on birth certificates and licenses are a heterosexual couple. We are hoping to use a state that is more anti-gay to our advantage and use our birth certificates to qualify for a marriage license. Like one of the states who say you can only get married based on your birth gender regardless of legal gender changes or sex changes. From the way we were born we were heterosexual and the way we live now we are also heterosexual plus neither of us have surgeries so I think that part will be easy to accomplish.


My big questions is what will happen when we go to file for name changes with places like social security or when we file our taxes. Because legally we are both recognized as female under the federal government do you think they will deny her name change (also she has had her name changed once before, will that come into play to anyone's knowledge)? Do you think they will come back and attack the validity of the marriage?

Honestly if they do I think we would fight it and most likely win, because we can argue the technicality of our being a heterosexual couple pretty well. I'm just curious if anyone has gone through this themselves and if there are some particular hurdles we should look into in advance.

Sorry if this is all kind of random. Writing while watching tv, eating dinner and texting kills my concentration lol!
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LordKAT

I never heard of social security checking to see if anyone else has changed their status, spouse or otherwise. You can change your name to almost anything legally so that won't matter. Most laws regarding marriage are by state so I would be careful of laws in the state in which you plan to reside. (not the one you get married in) A marriage license in a state which has no same sex marriage like mine, can have the name changed after a legal name change, done at the same time even. On paper, mine would have two male names if I had done so. Tax wise it changes nothing, unfortunately.
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ToriJo

(this is US-centric)

For *marriage*, most states go by birth certificate.  For the purposes of marriage, in most places, your gender is what your birth certificate lists as sex.  Yes, screwed up.  There *is* some contradictory case law, and also case law that only recognizes the *original* birth certificate or DNA.  In other words, it's all over the map legally.

There's no actual definition in law of what makes someone male or female.  Seriously.  It's all case law (and every possible conclusion has been reached there) or administrative rules made by an agency (these carry some of the force of law, but aren't anywhere near statutes).  Perhaps they should have defined male and female before requiring one of both in a marriage.  But that would have been inconvenient for the right-wingers.

As for the Feds, if your social security markers don't show heterosexuality, I can see the possibility of tax issues due to DOMA.  Ironically, if you were married and filed as singles *OR* filed jointly you could be in trouble.  There is no single standard of what makes you male or female at the federal government level, either.

Today, the legal situation is:

1) If DNA between the two partners doesn't include exactly one XX person and one XY person, the marriage is at risk of being legally questioned in some places.

2) If the partners' original birth sex identification doesn't include exactly one male and one female, the marriage is at risk.

3) If the partners' current birth certificate sex markers doesn't show exactly one male and one female, the marriage is at risk.

4) If any combination of similar government documents won't show exactly one male and one female, the marriage is at risk.

5) If a partner has had surgery and doesn't disclose this accurately to the other partner, the marriage is at risk.

I *THINK* that if both of you did the same things (changed certain documents, etc) at the same times, and that the equivalent documents showed a heterosexual relationship between both of you at every step of the way (so you wouldn't want DLs that show you both as M or both as F, for example), you'd be okay (as whatever standard someone used, it would show a heterosexual relationship).  But the courts have a nasty habit of picking only the legal evidence of gender that they want to use - so if they could pick a standard that wouldn't show M + F between the two of you, then you could be in trouble.

I say this as one of the people who's marriage is both valid or invalid.  It's sad that there is very few relationships a trans person can enter into and have a legally secure marriage.  When I hear the anti-gay crowd say, "Gays can get married.  They just have to marry non-gay," I want to somehow put them in a situation where they can't marry either a male or a female because some backwater judge might pick some random criteria to determine sex.

I know that's probably not what you wanted to hear.  I'd encourage you to think carefully about what could happen to you if a court disagreed with you, but also to listen to your heart.  This is why the fight for marriage equality is so important.  It doesn't directly address bigotry towards trans people, but it side-steps it and gives rights, which is a lot better than the situation is today.
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Radar

Quote from: Slanan on May 02, 2011, 11:40:05 PMFor *marriage*, most states go by birth certificate. For the purposes of marriage, in most places, your gender is what your birth certificate lists as sex.
This is true- and most states will ask for a BC. For a legal marriage what's on the BC is what counts. So, if you have the gender on your BC as still F and your fiancee's is still M then it's a legal, heterosexual marriage. Your roles are just reversed, but the state could care less.
"In this one of many possible worlds, all for the best, or some bizarre test?
It is what it is—and whatever.
Time is still the infinite jest."
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Ann Onymous

Quote from: Radar on May 04, 2011, 11:05:23 AM
This is true- and most states will ask for a BC. For a legal marriage what's on the BC is what counts. So, if you have the gender on your BC as still F and your fiancee's is still M then it's a legal, heterosexual marriage. Your roles are just reversed, but the state could care less.

Some States provide in the law a whole host of documents that may be offered up.  The House Bill here in Texas that was a companion to the Senate Bill everyone was up in arms about was actually going to remove birth certificates as an acceptable form of identification (along with most documents in the list that did not contain a photograph). 

Where things become more complicated is if the marriage moves towards divorce.  I previously dated one of the parties in the Austin-area case where the trial court granted the divorce of a same-sex couple and the Attorney General sought to intervene claiming that the court lacked the authority to grant a divorce.  It got extremely messy, although admittedly, the intervention of the AG hastened the property settlement since they wanted the Court to agree to the Decree before the State could intervene further. 

While some may argue that the situation was different, the one common denominator was that the marriage was the product of an action in another State (which in that case permitted same-sex marriage) but when it came time to seek the divorce, the problems came about because the marriage itself was not being recognized in the State in which they resided (Texas). 
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Tamaki

It's not just divorce where things become complicated. Any time someone is looking for a reason to challenge the marriage is can become an issue. Following a partners death for example, if there is an estate or children the family may want the marriage declared invalid to boost their claim to the kids or money.

This thread has been very interesting a relevant for me. Thanks.

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Ann Onymous

Quote from: Hannah_Irene on May 04, 2011, 12:31:05 PM
It's not just divorce where things become complicated. Any time someone is looking for a reason to challenge the marriage is can become an issue. Following a partners death for example, if there is an estate or children the family may want the marriage declared invalid to boost their claim to the kids or money.

This thread has been very interesting a relevant for me. Thanks.

Estate and custody issues can certain become more complex.  However, those are also resolved in advance through careful estate planning that should render moot any challenges to the marriage.  While that does not foreclose a challenge to designated beneficiaries, it should make the Court's task much easier...

Other Wills or documents that may need to be modified would include those of other family members so that it comports with the individual's name and legal identification.   
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