Kia Ora, [This is the last poll for the day/evening/night...after which I'm off to bed]

  So far I've found it quite interesting how some trans-people tend to view certain issues...
In most cases my topics don't really have right or wrong answers, as it all tends to boil down to the individual's personal experience/choice...

The following only relates to the RLE time prior to one having surgery

The Real Life Experience period and the dreaded "Gate/Time Keeper" seems to be a real issue for some...On the one hand there are those who feel no RLE is necessary, in other words have the surgery and worry about what happens in Real Life afterwards...

Some feel that 6 months is enough time to know whether or not surgery is the right thing to do for them...For others it's 12  or 24 months...

I personally feel that 24 months + is a good period of time for one to get their 'act' together and they should have smoothed out any bumps in the road by then[especially for the older transitioners who tend to come with a heap load of male-mental baggage] ...[I would also fit into this category minus the anger]

The only exception to this rule I believe is those young/er trans-people who have never lived in denial of their true identity, in other words, never tried to "conform" to what others perceived as their "norm"...

I guess a good example of this is a friend of mine who transitioned at 17, that is she started to live fully time [without HRT or surgery], up until then she had been living an androgynous life style...

  As for myself, I was under the impression due to financial reasons I would never have surgery,  I had mentally conditioned myself for this, so when I went full time, it was also "real time" No gate keeper no RLE required...However I ended up having surgery four and half years later... By this time I had truly smoothed out any bumps in the road and had totally blended into society...       

Well what do you think??? Is the RLE passed it's use by date???

Metta Zenda I've had a lazy day today lots of time on my hands[plus the weather wasn't the best...

to me this is a total waste of time by the time youve jumped threw all the hoops to get hrt tell those that matter you are trans then deal with the fallout learning make up and how to dress, you already are full time in your head and please define living full time ive been fulltime since i realized something was wrong and that i wasnt the boy i appeared to be. full time tring to fix this collasal f up that is.
jessi

As far as I am concerned RLE is a total complete and utter load of stuff that comes from a cows bum.

I know what(?) I am I'm me.


OK we get very young people on this board and the question may be legit. But as long as they get pro counselling it should not be an issue. I knew the day I realised what gender I had been given that it was wrong. Why do I need RLE? For goddess sake I'm a woman. (bIg pause ) Sorry, ranting because of TOM. My RLE.

Cindy

If they are going to insist on surgical applicants having wasted the time and money to see a shrink, then the surgical team should be willing to defer to the very shrink in question...not everyone NEEDS a lengthy time in order to demonstrate fitness for surgery. 

The real life experience is an oxymoron statement.   No matter what I do it will always be my life.  So my life will always be real regardless of what I do.

So as far as I'm concerned it is a complete an utter waste of time and at least 2 years of my life were wasted, satisfying some conditions that the gate keepers imposed upon me and these conditions vary from place to place.  I would have had surgery at a much younger age if I had the information and knowledge that is currently available now and I know deep inside with every fibre of my being that I would not have hesitated in having the surgery straight away even then and most important of all I would never have ever regretted having my surgery earlier on in my life, even to this day I have never ever regretted my decision.

The 'gate keepers' have to fully realise that gender is innate in every human being regardless of our genes and trying to prevent how we want to live our lives is totally and utterly futile.  Yes, there maybe be co morbid conditions affecting gender and some individuals have questions or doubts, then these individuals need to seek the help so they can sort their issues out.

However, for others we need to live our lives the way we want without restrictions.

Kind regards
Sarah B

I know me better than anyone else and know what I want, what I need, the reality is that I don't need to see a therapist, or someone telling when I can do this or that, shouldn't have to, but do have to because those are the rules. And I was already intending to live my life as a woman, so there was no need for any standard to be set by some so called expert. If I had the money and could have the surgery, no waiting, no letters, just to be able to go in there and get it done, I'd do it right away, and know that once it was done I'd be okay, just as I knew I would be better while taking hormones.

Some therapists already get it.  I was never required to see my primary therapist on a regular basis during my year on hormones before surgery.  I only saw her, perhaps, 7 full times from initial appointment to the last one which was a discussion about the surgery letter. 

Technically speaking, I am not yet "full-time" because I have not yet changed my legal name and at the same time, I had the big surgery about 5 weeks ago.  Even then, I didn't live my entire life as my target gender until a month and a half before the surgery.

I think the "Real Life Test/Real Life Experience" is different for everyone as to what their therapist demands and the nature of that individual's transition.

Like Valerie, I'm torn.  I'm full time and on hormones right now, so technically in the RLE period.  Is this in anticipation of surgery?  Yes and no... I want SRS, but I'm also flat broke (actually, I'm $55k in debt from student loans) and lost my job yesterday.  My life is now devoted to finding another job and applying for spring admission to Masters programs.  Surgery is, sadly, in the far distant future unless my parents can help me out.  I may very well ask them in a year or so.

That said, by the time I can afford surgery, RLE won't be an issue because my primary therapist is well aware of my current state.

Now here's the tricky part: I know I've been female my entire life.  I've always known it, always felt it.  But I was socialized as a male and lived that role for 33 years, and there's a lot of baggage to shed from that experience and many lessons to learn now that I'm living as my true self.  Starting hormones, seeing physical results, then going full time has changed me far beyond the physical, and these changes also need to be processed and integrated into my self-concept.  This understanding is far more beneficial to my psychic well-being than any surgery in the world, including SRS.  I know that if I had to deal with the physical ramifications of surgery and learning a new body, I would have been too preoccupied to consider my mental life, which I identify with far more strongly than my biology.  I'm grateful for the time I have to grow emotionally, spiritually, and mentally into my new reality.

But what works for me doesn't work for everyone...    Others may need the physical before the mental.  It's the one-size-fits-all approach that bothers me about the RLE requirement.

My problem with this notion is that it seems to be more about asserting power over my (our) bodies and lives, than actually achieveing anythign constructive.

What surgical intervention I choose to get and when, is a matter for me. How I choose to live before and after is a matter for me.

Demanding that that I spend a period of time, wearing, what someone decides, is female clothing is insulting and just a little sexist.

I will dress as I choose to.

I would dearly love to have the ugly bit removed. Equally, it would be wonderful to have, what remains, reconstructed, by a skilled, plastic surgeon, into something more aesthetically pleasing to me.

That is my choice. It isn't for anyone else to know what there is between my legs, now or at any other time.

The notion of RLE is a humiliation.

My mental and physical fitness for surgery should be the same as for any other elective surgical procedure.

QuoteIt's the one-size-fits-all approach that bothers me about the RLE requirement.

Ditto that.
I think it should be tailored to the individual.

Quote from: Sarah B on May 07, 2011, 07:07:05 AM
The real life experience is an oxymoron statement.

It's not an oxymoron. However, it does lack context. "Real life experience as your target gender", with target gender marked as what you want your end goal to be for yourself, would be more suitable. It's obvious that everything you do is "real" with the exception of hallucinations, which are only real in the sense that you think they are; but I'm not going to go there.

It's a good idea on paper but in reality it's just more bureaucracy crap that people need to deal with without good reason. To my understanding, the whole point of it is to restrict people who are delusional about themselves, simply misperceive their feelings and will regret it later, or just have a good chance of regretting it in general. The first problem is that people can be confused about their reasons throughout the "real life experience" and come to the same unfortunate result. You need something major to realize you're going to make a mistake rather than time. An event of some sort that makes you actually question yourself is superior to just running on fantasy for 12 months (or any amount of time). The other problem is that (atleast, I hope) most competent therapists would catch this before writing letters which makes the "real life experience" rather redundant.

Quote from: Sarah7 on May 07, 2011, 01:23:37 PM
I'd rather the surgery was linked to a set amount of time on HRT.

I agree with you.
This goes along with the idea that I mentioned about needing something that will actually make you question yourself. If "RLE" was based on HRT then it would be better than it is now, but it's still a waste of time in my opinion; considering how getting letters can delay you the same amount of time practically, along with waiting times.


"Not necessary-A waste of time..." because it's redundant and has faulty logic.

Furthermore,

Quote from: JungianZoe on May 07, 2011, 09:27:35 AM
It's the one-size-fits-all approach that bothers me about the RLE requirement.

I agree.

How to handle someone's identity is too large of a subject to make guidelines for, especially 'guidelines' that are treated as law. An extremely loose set of guidelines that are extensively reworked for each person is far superior.

Well I voted not necessary - BUT - what I actually mean is that it should be at the discretion of the supervising physician whether or not to impose a period of RLE. They should be free to treat an individual patient rather than a set of rules.

Where the patient is judged intelligent enough to understand the implications I am in favour of informed consent by the patient as the main basis for authorising the surgery rather than any sort of formal rules.

Personally I didn't do a formal RLE and over 25 years on the lack of it obviously didn't do me any harm.

Kia Ora all, [I'm refreshed,  did my meditation and had my morning jog + the weather's much better today=nice and sunny]

First and foremost, I realise in order for some to participate in the RLE, there must be some leeway by the government/state involved enabling for example, a provision for a temporary document covering 'legal name change' and the like, so as to make life a little easier when having to do the required RLE time...

A while back research carried out in the UK re: RLE [two years, that was the requirement if one is having government funded surgery back then], found that around two thirds who start the 'experience' drop out, some only a few months into it...Only a third actually continue on with RLE...It's possible some of those who drop out were just "crossdressers" ie, having a feminine side but their core gender identity was not female-others may or may not have suffered from this congenital condition but just couldn't cope with the stress and social pressures involved...

Understandably the RLE can be a real stressful time for some, and if one should find they can't cope, this does not necessarily mean they are not "transsexual", but it is a good indicator that transitioning full time and having[what is for the most part irreversible] surgery may not be the best option for them...

  Would a parachutist jump from a plane without first checking their parachute?
When it comes to the older transitioner and the RLE, I feel that one should check their parachute, then check it again and again for 3 months or 6 months or a year or two, when you find it's flawless-that is, it will safely bring you down to earth-jump and enjoy the ride...If you don't 'check' your parachute first[have some RLE under ones belt, but instead rush in and have 'life transforming' surgery], you could quite rapidly return to earth with a big thump and could "live" to regret it

Re the standards set for RLE
Different strokes for different folks-but there are thousands of  folks with different needs... For me the RLE time frame was irrelevant...However this doesn't stop me from being deeply concerned for those who lack the necessary coping skills and  try and rush through things. Having some uniform system in place seems to be a practical approach to this...It might not be perfect, but it's all there is for now...

BTW, I also believe that most if not all gender therapists who deal with trans people[well at lease here in NZ ] have a genuine concern for their clients wellbeing...A gender therapist's life is not an easy one...

When dealing with trans-clients a counsellor and a psychiatrist that I saw once said "At times being the 'gate keeper' is not a pleasant job!" They went on to say they see clients who are obviously struggling, finding it hard to cope in society in their newly acquired public identity, yet these clients insist by having surgery life will be better ... 

Please bear in mind  these are my personal opinions and by stating them it was not my intention to offence any reader ...

But I really do hope the new comers[especially the older ones with all the baggage] will think long and hard about things before jumping!

Happy Mindfulness

Metta Zenda

I also voted not necessary, however leaving it up to the supervising physician to impose any RLE, would more than likely lead to such variation in requirements for the RLE test.  How people go about their lives should be left up to the individuals concerned.  Humans are social creatures and the they will take the necessary steps that they deem necessary to join the 'social group' that they feel most comfortable with. 

I'm also of the opinion in what Jenny said and that is namely 'Where the patient is judged intelligent enough to understand the implications I am in favour of informed consent by the patient as the main basis for authorising the surgery rather than any sort of formal rules."  Whether our gender is innate or not does not matter, the individual must realise the unmistakeable consequences with going through with any surgery or treatment that is irreversible given today's technology.

Life Experience is real or Life Experience equals or equates to real.  So replacing "Life Experience" with Real in 'Real Life Experience" you will end up with 'Real Real.  Therefore an oxymoronic statement if there ever was one.

I understand the context in which Real Life Experience is used, however as mentioned above, we as individuals will take any or all of the necessary steps to acquire what we want and 'therapists' are there to help us if we need the help.  We can only achieve so much given our current circumstances, background and other factors.  We as humans need to learn acceptance of everyone regardless of how they present, whether we agree with what they do or not, does not matter, because if we humans want to evolve, then we must learn to accept them for who they are.

My kindest regards to one and all
Sarah B

I think that some kind of real life experience is necessary.  And the reason is that if one could just go and get surgery, what if they find that it isn't really what they wanted.

Most probably would have no reluctance, but what of those few that would.  Should we not make sure everyone is right for surgery?

I am more than ready. 

this to me is one more attempt of society to protect the stupid.... for instance harmful or fatal if swallowed on a bottle of draino, coffee served hot, on a mcdonalds coffee cup really people come on.........if you have grs and suddenly or not so suddenly discover it was a bad idea tough who here can say that they didnt know the surgery was perminant who here after years of contiplating it can stand there and honestly say they didnt know it would radically change their life good or bad.....
please
jessi

Quote from: Sarah B on May 07, 2011, 05:54:16 PM
Life Experience is real or Life Experience equals or equates to real.  So replacing "Life Experience" with Real in 'Real Life Experience" you will end up with 'Real Real.  Therefore an oxymoronic statement if there ever was one.

That's not oxymoronic, that is redundant.

Quote from: Janet Lynn on May 07, 2011, 08:22:55 PM
I think that some kind of real life experience is necessary.  And the reason is that if one could just go and get surgery, what if they find that it isn't really what they wanted.

Most probably would have no reluctance, but what of those few that would.  Should we not make sure everyone is right for surgery?

I am more than ready.

A set amount of time in RLE doesn't necessarily make anyone more ready for surgery.   You can't quantify everyone's experience to a set period of time requirement.  Some people need no RLE to be ready for surgery (such as myself) while others may.  So in your unprofessional opinion, you are saying you know that I was not ready for surgery contrary to two therapists with PhDs?  I think you to be in no position of authority to have any say over what I wish to do with my own body and when.

Quote from: girl_ashley on May 07, 2011, 10:53:37 PM
A set amount of time in RLE doesn't make anyone more ready for surgery.   You can't quantify everyone's experience to a set period of time requirement.  Some people need no RLE to be ready for surgery (such as myself) while others may.  So in your unprofessional opinion, you are saying you know that I was not ready for surgery contrary to two therapists with PhDs?

I never said that at all.  Don't put words in my mouth.  I said some need to have RLE.  I also said that many would have no reluctance.  But you seem to value what two PhDs say rather than your own mind?

Quote from: Janet Lynn on May 07, 2011, 08:22:55 PM
I think that some kind of real life experience is necessary.  And the reason is that if one could just go and get surgery, what if they find that it isn't really what they wanted.

Most probably would have no reluctance, but what of those few that would.  Should we not make sure everyone is right for surgery?

How is this different from the woman who goes for the BA with 470cc implants?  We do not require them to go around for months on end carrying around falsies in that size...

And yes, it is essentially the same analogous situation in that both persons are seeking to bring their body into congruence with an image they believe to be appropriate.