Quote from: Janet Lynn on May 07, 2011, 11:03:27 PM
I never said that at all.  Don't put words in my mouth.  I said some need to have RLE.  I also said that many would have no reluctance.  But you seem to value what two PhDs say rather than your own mind?

Speak for yourself when it comes to putting words in my mouth.  I never said my therapists thought I wasn't ready, they most certainly did and thusly they signed SRS letters for me. They AGREED with me that I was ready and indeed I did get it done and I feel fantastic.

Breast augmentations can be reversed.  SRS can not.  And some of the surgeons I have contacted recommend just that.  Maybe not for months but at least for a weekend.

exactly janet it cant be reversed as explained by every srs surgeon in the initial consult so why do we need rle you are what you are and you have been living it most of your life the fact that some over ducated idiot wants you to dress a certain way and act a certain way before he will sign a letter is redundant and redicoulous if you get a non reversable surgery without thinking it threw u get what you diserve period

I stand by what I have said.  I believe for those who need it, there should be a period of RLE.  I also was ready from day one for SRS.

I have said my piece and that is that.

Quote from: Janet Lynn on May 07, 2011, 11:14:23 PM
I stand by what I have said.  I believe for those who need it, there should be a period of RLE.  I also was ready from day one for SRS.

I have said my piece and that is that.

*peace

This is about us having the control over our own bodies and not leaving it up to some gatekeeper to say we need RLE before we do the deed.

You are also contradicting yourself.  Now you appear to be saying that "for those that need it" RLE should be required.  But in your earlier statement, you blatantly  said "I think that some kind of real life experience is necessary.", implying necessary for everyone.  So, what exactly is your position?

Every surgeon is a gatekeeper and most require letters from other gatekeepers.  It all comes down to they don't want to be sued if you change your mind afterwards.

Just remember the clinic in Australia that was sued.  Or at least was investigated for pushing people.

Let us decided.  If you want to go thru RLE, go for it.  For me, and I think Ashley ( if I may be so bold ) show us to the table.

Quote from: Janet Lynn on May 07, 2011, 11:21:51 PM
Every surgeon is a gatekeeper and most require letters from other gatekeepers.  It all comes down to they don't want to be sued if you change your mind afterwards.

Just remember the clinic in Australia that was sued.  Or at least was investigated for pushing people.

Let us decided.  If you want to go thru RLE, go for it.  For me, and I think Ashley ( if I may be so bold ) show us to the table.

You can still change your mind afterwards and sue people even if you have provided SRS letters.  It's actually more about the surgeons losing their insurance to practice if they don't ensure SRS letters are collected before surgery.

Bingo.  It is all about the bottom line.

Quote from: Janet Lynn on May 07, 2011, 11:25:59 PM
Bingo.  It is all about the bottom line.

In this context, yes because if they don't have insurance they won't be able to practice and therefore will be left unable to help other patients.

Quote from: Zenda on May 07, 2011, 03:29:29 AM I personally feel that 24 months + is a good period of time for one to get their 'act' together and they should have smoothed out any bumps in the road by then[especially for the older transitioners who tend to come with a heap load of male-mental baggage] ...

Quote from: Zenda on May 07, 2011, 05:46:00 PM
But I really do hope the new comers[especially the older ones with all the baggage] will think long and hard about things before jumping!

I notice you tend to talk a lot about "mental/male baggage" which evidently from your statements was a problem for you, but you can't extrapolate that to everyone's experience.  Every day of my life is RLE in the fullest sense of the word. I was never a "man" who became a woman;  I was born a woman with a birth defect, which I eventually had corrected.

Any phony "baggage" then was easily discarded in favor of my REAL life, i.e. my life as the female I'd always been.  I knew corrective surgery was the right path for me and I never had any doubts or second guesses about that.  All that really changed for me was the outward manifestation and the sheer ecstatic relief I felt from finally doing something about my problem, though later with physical changes there are other mental changes that occur naturally as well.  Even those had nothing to do with "baggage",  but rather with discovering the joys and intricacies of being a woman, the same as any little girl who eventually grows up, and with seeing very clearly this was the inevitable path I was on from the day I was born.

And what's with all the polls?   Honestly it isn't my place to have an opinion abut so called "real life experience". I did whatever I had to do to be cured and it worked, and everyone who suffers the scourge of transsexualism must do the same.  We can agree or disagree with the process which is our right, but if transition is right for us then it won't change our resolve to become who we are, no matter what it takes.

Quote from: FairyGirl on May 07, 2011, 11:34:27 PM
...with physical changes there are other mental changes that occur naturally as well.  Even those had nothing to do with "baggage",  but rather with discovering the joys and intricacies of being a woman, the same as any little girl who eventually grows up, and with seeing very clearly this was the inevitable path I was on from the day I was born....

I really love how you put this.  Other than that, I don't have anything constructive to add to this topic :X

Kia Ora Fairy girl,

  You're right I do have a slight polling "obsession" and with the ole male-mental baggage thingy too, my doctor says I need wean myself off of them gradually... fingers crossed 

You make some interesting points of which I tend to agree with [another obsession of mine]...it's true "Different strokes for different folks!" BTW I'm truly happy for you and hope you continue to thrive...


Unlike yourself and many others here, surgery wasn't not a priority for me, it was not the be all and end all, it was just an unexpected bonus that I appreciate... but not a necessity...I had already found contentment with the help of HRT and from physically "living" my psycho-sexual identity openly in society and the fact I'm asexual helped to maintain the contentment...

But then I guess with the other legal issues surrounding transition back then, I had the advantage of living where the ID on ones driver's licence is free of  gender description and name change and new photo ID was easy to obtain...And on top of all this being born in the UK I was also in the fortunate position [if I hadn't  had government funded surgery] to have all my legal document changed sans surgery...

My apologises if my polling habit offends you in any way...Personally I don't offend easily in fact I don't find anything offensive...I'm easy/happy go lucky, go with the flow and don't take life too seriously kind of woman...

Perhaps that's why my reputation's shot

Metta Zenda

Quote from: Janet Lynn on May 07, 2011, 08:22:55 PM
I think that some kind of real life experience is necessary.  And the reason is that if one could just go and get surgery, what if they find that it isn't really what they wanted.

Most probably would have no reluctance, but what of those few that would.  Should we not make sure everyone is right for surgery?

I am more than ready.

No Janet we absolutely should NOT! To borrow from the good book I am not my brothers (or sisters) keeper. Only a fool tries to live someone else's life for them. Even with the very best intentions it can't be done. We have to let intelligent people make their own mistakes and not try to protect them from themselves unless they are clearly not mentally in a fit state to understand the implications.

As I said, if someone is not judged able to understand what they are doing then that is a different story... but if I, for example, had made a mistake then I am bright enough to know that I would simply have had to work at it and find a way to make a go of things.

In essence that is partly why the surgery works and RLE's DONT!  The finality of it, removes the tantalising possibility of "what if..." While I was pre-op I was always critically aware that in extremis I could theoretically revert if I had to. True I didn't want to do so, but in theory I could have. That simple fact allows one to adopt a slightly disengaged mental attitude to any social problems. In effect you may fail to fully confront them because you believe that you can always run back home to mama, by de-transitioning, if they become too much...

So in that sense only once you are postop have you irreversibly landed on one or other side of the fence, which for me removed the feeling of having been given by fate the "possibility" to be either gender and maybe ending up in the wrong one due to circumstance. Once I had landed I knew that for better or worse I now had to make a success of this - and so I just got on with it and I did!

In my experience true RLE only started AFTER surgery. Up until that point it wasn't ever really REAL. (and please understand I am only talking about my own individual experience here).

that's a good point jen. one of the things I've taken upon myself to do, as part of my transition, is to be very firm in the idea that there is no going back. if I hadn't, I almost certainly would have surrendered to the pressure applied by my spouse by now.

My mindset is that I have crossed the line and I'll live as a woman or I'll die. whatever the price for that, it will have to be paid.

But that's a matter of resolve, not of physical ability and i agree if one is under enough pressure (perhaps the fear of losing income, or family, whatever) that there's the potential to give up which does leave one in a sort of limbo.

for me, the reason I'd say RLE simply doesn't do what surgery would do (or at least, from the testimony of the post-op it appears to do) is that no matter how good others are to me, I'm aware that i "know something they don't know" - it's VERY difficult for me to submerge into "girl talk" without being conscious of it, or to be flirted with by a guy without thinking "he wouldn't be saying that if he knew" or whatever. Even though I spend every hour being as female as my anatomy allows, there's still that caveat.

Kia Ora,
It would seem it's a "Every wo-man for him/herself !" mentality that's shared by many who have commented so far...

At times I tend to forget for many of you here, there's a big monetary cost involved...Perhaps this could be influencing your thoughts on the matter...

However, I wonder if the majority would be less aggressively oppose to the RLE, if surgery in their country was government funded ? Them not having to fork out any money but having to abide by the procedures  their government had put in place in order for one to obtain "free" surgery...Would you be prepared to jump through the hoops?

Just a thought...

Metta Zenda

Quote from: Zenda on May 08, 2011, 02:19:03 AM
Kia Ora,
It would seem it's a "Every wo-man for him/herself !" mentality that's shared by many who have commented so far...

At times I tend to forget for many of you here, there's a big monetary cost involved...Perhaps this could be influencing your thoughts on the matter...

However, I wonder if the majority would be less aggressively oppose to the RLE, if surgery in their country was government funded ? Them not having to fork out any money but having to abide by the procedures  their government had put in place in order for one to obtain "free" surgery...Would you be prepared to jump through the hoops?

Just a thought...

Metta Zenda

Well here in the UK it IS government funded - so for me it makes no difference.

The everyone for themsleves attitude is just a simple fact of life. We all have to live (and be mindful of) our own existences. You can (and indeed should) be considerate of others in your dealings, but you cannot control their lives for them and nor should you try.

(oh and by the way even though I had government funding available, I still opted to voluntarily pay for it myself on principle, because I had the means to do so and I didn't want to be taking valuable resources away from someone who couldn't afford to pay.)

As one of the 'older' ones, I do not have any male mental baggage, never have, never will. Simple because I'm female. What I don't have at the moment, and I think Janet is in a similar boat for different reasons, is opportunity.

As far as I'm concerned I do not, have not and will not require RLE, although that said I live as me most of the time anyway. Others may. And as people have said SRS tends to very difficult to reverse.

I do remember a documentary about a Polish "MtF" for lack of ways to describe the particular case. She had SRS and basically forced the issue with no RLE. She deeply regretted it. She was a very large muscular person with very large male hands and a very masculine face. After SRS she then realised there was no way that her society was going to accept her as female. She was isolated, out of work and very lonely, and very unhappy. In her case I think RLE may have helped her in making a decision. That said it was her decision.

Cindy

Quote from: rejennyrated on May 08, 2011, 02:23:57 AM
Well in the UK it IS government funded - so for me it makes no difference.

(oh and by the way I still opted to voluntarily pay for it myself on principle, because I had the means to do so and I didn't want to be taking valuable resources away from someone who couldn't afford to pay.)

Kia Ora Jenny,

You're one of the lucky ones, sadly many don't have the funds to pay for their own, in fact I would say the vast majority of those who suffer from this condition never end up having surgery...I guess that's also why the UK and other governments have shown some compassion and done away with trans-people having to got through surgery in order to obtain a new birth certificate, mind you from what I gather it's still not easy for some to do this...

A few months prior to my surgery here in NZ, I applied for a new birth certificate[ this was not long after the GRA came into play] because I had told them I was already booked in for surgery they[the GRP] began to process my application but recommended I wait till after my surgery to complete it...My application was processed quite quickly, every thing was completed within a month after my surgery...

  On the whole, from when I first  made contact with a gender specialist right through to the surgery and the after care, my transition went as smoothly as it possibly could.. I had no problems with any government departments both here and in the UK that I had to deal with...But then I was one of the fortunate ones who just seems to glide through the system as if I was Teflon coated    Perhaps it was because by this stage I really didn't care one way or the other,  I wasn't under any self imposed pressures...

Metta Zenda    

Quote from: Zenda on May 08, 2011, 02:19:03 AM
Kia Ora,
It would seem it's a "Every wo-man for him/herself !" mentality that's shared by many who have commented so far...

At times I tend to forget for many of you here, there's a big monetary cost involved...Perhaps this could be influencing your thoughts on the matter...

However, I wonder if the majority would be less aggressively oppose to the RLE, if surgery in their country was government funded ? Them not having to fork out any money but having to abide by the procedures  their government had put in place in order for one to obtain "free" surgery...Would you be prepared to jump through the hoops?

Just a thought...

Metta Zenda

hoops are hoops, if you have to jump you have to jump - it's not a matter of want to jump.

I am not at all disagreeing that there are cases, as Cindy described, where the individual needs the RLE to process their individual circumstances. i think for most of us we just kind of rebel at a "one-size-fits-all" prescription.

Quote from: CindyJames on May 08, 2011, 02:29:59 AM
As one of the 'older' ones, I do not have any male mental baggage, never have, never will. Simple because I'm female. What I don't have at the moment, and I think Janet is in a similar boat for different reasons, is opportunity.

As far as I'm concerned I do not, have not and will not require RLE, although that said I live as me most of the time anyway. Others may. And as people have said SRS tends to very difficult to reverse.

I do remember a documentary about a Polish "MtF" for lack of ways to describe the particular case. She had SRS and basically forced the issue with no RLE. She deeply regretted it. She was a very large muscular person with very large male hands and a very masculine face. After SRS she then realised there was no way that her society was going to accept her as female. She was isolated, out of work and very lonely, and very unhappy. In her case I think RLE may have helped her in making a decision. That said it was her decision.

Cindy

Kia Ora Cindy,

It's good to hear that you are male mental  baggage free, however I'm not say that every single "Older" transitioner has the same amount of things to overcome...

For example my main issues were surrounding my children, and the gender therapist whom I saw was very helpful in this respect...And as for the RLE [which I didn't really have to do because of the situation I described in other posts] and from a purely physical point of view, I'm 160 cms, thinned boned, small hands and feet and weight 58/60 kgs[around 120 pounds give or take- sorry I can't remember stones, perhaps it's because I had been for quite some time in my past  ], and from what I gather my mannerism/behaviour has always been somewhat androgynous as was my overall appearance prior to HRT...

But sadly many M2Fs are not as fortunate, and the male mental and physical baggage[ having to undo years of enforced  male etiquette plus coming to terms with their physical appearance ] are a real issue that some need to overcome and the RLE is one way of smoothing out things...

Or if one looks at it another way, when out in public they may have to run society's gauntlet of ridicule and rejection on a daily bases, which can in many cases cause depression and anxiety and if they haven't developed a good coping mechanism[that would come from doing the trial and error RLE], they "could" suffer even more emotional stress after having major life changing surgery which could sadly lead to "regret"...

And the other thing that seems to happen once one has come to terms with who they truly are and starts on the road to "recovery", is the sense of euphoria...This euphoric rush can cloud over the reality of ones situation by pushing aside the long term everyday impact it will have on their lives once they have had the "point of no return" surgical procedure...

Many of us have waited for many years to "Be who we are" so what impact would/will another year or two's waiting have on things

Anyway enough said for now from me...I can only wish all those who have started their road to discovery a safe and happy journey...

Metta Zenda