read "my gender workbook" by Kate Bornstein. that book has broadened my vision on gender. none of us can say what a man should be or what a woman should be, since no two of them are exactly the same. also, none of us have a solid crystallized identity. sure, maybe we always say we are men or women, but who we are as individuals always changes, and is never the same. another identity "the real me." who knows what that is? since we always subtly change and fortify ourselves as individuals, it doesn't work that way. i just know how to be true to myself moment by moment, and that's what i'm going to stick to. who is a "real" anything? that's why i don't believe i always have a gender, which is only my way of looking at it. i feel i only have a gender when it is necessary to bring to my consciousness.

Quote from: SpaceyGirl on May 11, 2011, 12:34:12 PM
read "my gender workbook" by Kate Bornstein. that book has broadened my vision on gender. none of us can say what a man should be or what a woman should be, since no two of them are exactly the same. also, none of us have a solid crystallized identity. sure, maybe we always say we are men or women, but who we are as individuals always changes, and is never the same. another identity "the real me." who knows what that is? since we always subtly change and fortify ourselves as individuals, it doesn't work that way. i just know how to be true to myself moment by moment, and that's what i'm going to stick to. who is a "real" anything? that's why i don't believe i always have a gender, which is only my way of looking at it. i feel i only have a gender when it is necessary to bring to my consciousness.

I'm quite familiar with Kate (still have a signed copy of Gender Outlaw) and her early writings...liked her as a person (we lost touch a LOOONG time ago) but do not agree with some of her notions. 

But your comments (quoted here) bring us/this thread back to the findamental issue of the differences between those who identify as having had a transsexual condition and those that hold some other gender belief and interjecting that belief into a discussion related to an issue of what amounts to life and death for a person with a transsexual condition. 

Right, I'll jump back in for a moment.

Here where I live they don't even use the Kinsey scale or the transsexual "scale" anymore, the Ph.D's don't use the terminology "true transsexual" in meetings, discussion, or therapy, as far as I have experienced. What they ask me is: "How do you feel?" If they want something more solid they typically draw a line and tell me to indicate to them where I am on that line. I'm sure many of you have had similar experiences. Now, what they put on their papers is different. I saw a "TS 5?!" on one of my papers at the mental hospital as the tech was flipping through my file, and I didn't really understand it at the time.

This speaks to the shifting trends in Trans care, I believe that they are trying to help people achieve happiness with regard to their identity and physical body, and purposely trying inclusiveness without labels in order to help people make sense of the human experience in general. I was told very early on that I would experience almost every identity on the gender continuum in some fashion on my journey through transition, and if I stop to think about it, I am. Especially when considering the fact that I'm bisexual, and a benefit of my sexuality was immediately knowing that sex has nothing to do with the core facets of being trans anything. I am weird, my sexuality is important in so far as I can call it completely unimportant. By the time I'm done with transition my string of letters will look like: (female I.D. at all times) MtAtCDtMtAtF - no word on whether I was born intersexed, but I'm working on fudging a lab result to get into that club too I am in feminine boy / is (s)he trying to dress like a lesbian? mode to the rest of the world and it's kind of fun, but it has no bearing on my need to transition to a place inhabited by women like Valerie and Fairygirl. Jenny's new club does sound exciting though, and it is a possibility.

This is primarily why I say I made a decision: I decided that everything else didn't work. I could play that torturous gender game in fascinating new ways until I died, but none of it changed my sex. I had to try to beat transsexualism any other way I could before I settled on transition. Now I'm happy and scared, but I feel good.

So now that I've gone off on a tangent, and then gone off on a tangent in regard to that tangent, I feel that I personally can't see any excuse for anyone to disrespect anyone's identity, opinion, or try to scare any person out of a thread or forum because they're different (as long as there is no attack). We're not altogether much different anyway, some of us just arrive at the answer to life's important questions in very different ways.

I don't see transitioning as a choice, medical research has shown that TG peoples brains are formed differently to non TG people, I didn't choose for my brain to be like this, neither did I choose to spend my life hating my body.

The choice I made as a teenager was to try & ignore how I think & feel & to do what society expected of me because of my body & that choice became unbearable to live with so i've got no choice but to give in to my thoughts & feelings before my depression reaches a point where I do something really stupid & ultimately final.

Quote from: SpaceyGirl on May 10, 2011, 05:58:48 PM
i believe gender is only really there when people are consciously thinking of it and want it to be there for the sake of arguement. gender is not tangible. it's something used metaphorically.

  This is just about the biggest crock of ->-bleeped-<- that I've ever read here on Susan's.

  I've learned to stop reading posts that piss me off and that's exactly what I'm going to do with this one.

Quote from: JessicaR on May 11, 2011, 07:14:43 PM
  This is just about the biggest crock of ->-bleeped-<- that I've ever read here on Susan's.

  I've learned to stop reading posts that piss me off and that's exactly what I'm going to do with this one.

do we really need to reintroduce the drama? i've made a more recent post that best words how i've learned about gender. none of what i said was meant to be offensive, only misread.

Might I point out the lady said "I believe".
No where in her statement did she say "You should believe".

I went over this thread a couple times.

No one here has told anyone to think or believe in any particular way. Yet I see alot of defensive backlash that is completely unwarented.

On topic.....
I think (notice I said I think not you think or it is always this way) that for those of us who have a transsexual condition (which can include a small subsect of gender queer/androgyn types like my spouse) transition is not a choice.
Because the choice of transition or die is not really a choice is it?

A reminder from admin; no personal attacks! 

Quote from: cynthialee on May 11, 2011, 09:42:54 PM


Because the choice of transition or die is not really a choice is it?

I guess not (whew I get so tired reading through these discussions!). I know that the point may not be directed at me, but after some reflection I think I agree - reluctantly, because I know the logic is good.

This is not, however, a 180 degree turn for me. I was thinking frequently about how I would end my life before I made my decision, and I still have small episodes. I wish to believe that I have done something positive, and I manifested the willpower to do so. I don't think I have any further opinion.

Some thoughts on the binary:

The binary exists so children are made, but that is one old reason but it's a powerful influence.  So the binary is there to create children, to make people feel good and create a nice division, but gender expression is completely and utterly personal and the binary does stiffle individual expression.

The binary is an idea in people's heads that there's such as thing as 'what is acceptable female behaviour', but we forget everything is a completely and utterly personal in regards to expressing who we are.

Do not get me wrong the binary exists but it exists on the personal basis of complete and utter development of the feelings we have inside of us.    We take what we think other people think into account, that's the problem, but the real basis is personal expression and that is what we lost if we lived as males doing what others wished of us.  What other people think plays a part, but it's often not as set in stone as we think.

There's a false binary, the one which is about what other think, and a true one that is driven by our female core and that one has far more expression concerning gender.

Quote from: Lexia on May 12, 2011, 09:43:30 AM
Some thoughts on the binary:

The binary exists so children are made, but that is one old reason but it's a powerful influence.  So the binary is there to create children, to make people feel good and create a nice division, but gender expression is completely and utterly personal and the binary does stiffle individual expression.

The binary is an idea in people's heads that there's such as thing as 'what is acceptable female behaviour', but we forget everything is a completely and utterly personal in regards to expressing who we are.

Do not get me wrong the binary exists but it exists on the personal basis of complete and utter development of the feelings we have inside of us.    We take what we think other people think into account, that's the problem, but the real basis is personal expression and that is what we lost if we lived as males doing what others wished of us.  What other people think plays a part, but it's often not as set in stone as we think.

There's a false binary, the one which is about what other think, and a true one that is driven by our female core and that one has far more expression concerning gender.

basically, that's what i call a social box. i believe 100% that male and female brains are wired differently, but the binary or "social boxes" are all fortified by society as a whole. just from what they learn a man or woman should be from growing up. even then, could you ask any two people what they think a man is and what a woman is and get two identical answers? the social boxing that is encouraged by the society has nothing good to come out of it. there is nothing wrong with being who you are, but setting the standards for the rest of the human race is what i call garbage. i believe everyone will somehow configure their gender expression in order to adapt to their surroundings and meet their personal needs. none of us came out of the womb and go through life with the exact same morals, the exact same sympathies, the exact same values. the list goes on and on.

Quote from: Sarah7 on May 12, 2011, 12:43:04 AM
That argument is not very powerful from my perspective. Saying "I believe all queers are evil" is still offensive, even if I'm not suggesting you should believe it. However, I completely agree that the, um, volume of some of the responses might be toned down somewhat.

I completely agree with everything there.

QuoteI've seen this one used a few times in this thread, I'll admit I'm having a hard time comprehending it. (I'm not being facetious.) How does this devolve from "lousy choice" to "no choice"? It is based on the idea that death in itself is not a choice? I guess I have a hard time with that concept, as I feel very strongly that I chose to live.

I think there is a distinction that needs to be made here concerning a "choice" of self harm up to and including suicide. As I stated early on in this thread, yes, it is a choice. But, it is not a legitimate choice. The distinction though is that, that "choice" is not about transition. It's about a more nefarious issue. One which forces us into a very dark existence born of societal, familial and personal pressures for simply being the person you are and/or the incapacity to deal with and understand who you are. In other words, I think this is a "choice" which is being forced upon you. That's why it's illegitimate.

Once you have, and if you have successfully navigated away from that illegitimate "choice", you'll recognize that transitioning is not an option, nor a choice, it just is what must be. At least this is the way it worked for me.  I think the notion of a choice representing one, should not be associated with the true need and reality of the other. I could go on and on about how I feel this is so................but , I think I'll spare everyone.


Dawn

That someone should take offence to something that anouther person is thinking only demonstartes the insecurities of the person taking offence.

The statement prefaced by the statement "I beleive" is simply the reflection of what is inside that persons mind.

No one has any reason to be offended when someone states what they think.

RE:

Quote from: cynthialee on May 12, 2011, 10:48:02 AM
That someone should take offence to something that anouther person is thinking only demonstartes the insecurities of the person taking offence.

and,

QuoteNo one has any reason to be offended when someone states what they think.

Cynthia,

I wish to respectfully follow up on a thought that Sarah said just prior. Her's, to a point, echo's mine. I would caution that sometimes negative reaction to a person's statement is based more, in offence to sensitivities. And, it can be shown that failing to create a clearer picture of one's statements with resultant negative response is not completely based upon personal "insecurities". I reference a paraphrased statement by a preacher at a City Council meeting in Fort Lauderdale, Florida when Susan Stanton (don't jump on me for mentioning her name, please) first was outed. Anyway it went something like this:

".....I know Jesus Christ. And, I believe if he were here today, he'd want him fired!......."


Do you think anyone was offended by that statement? I know I was. Was it based upon insecurities? Not at all. It was based upon a representation of an intolerance for something they could not, nor would they even try to understand.

So, sometimes for clarities sake showing some level of offence to a statement has more of a rational than a perceived representation of insecurity.

Sorry, I just wanted to be clear.


Dawn

Quote from: Valeriedances on May 12, 2011, 10:58:02 AM
A person can still be male or female bodied and yet be a mix of masculine/feminine.

I do think there are exceptions to the binary system, intersex people for instance, but the majority of humans do not fall outside the binary, in my opinion.

A person can be completely feminine and still have a male body, and vice-versa. Could this be where gender variant folks are? They are not dysphoric in the same sense as a transsexual person who must have corrective surgery.

So it would be a decision/choice for those whose attributes align with the above, and still decide to transition for personal reasons having a mix or no surgeries. But it would not be a choice for the transsexual.

This is where we are talking apples/oranges. Completely different types of people. This is where the umbrella definition does not serve its stated community as these folks have nothing in common.

Val, I agree with everything you say apart from the last paragraph.  We're all people that's the essential thing, but there's going to be conflict between differing people because:

Where (speaking only for myself lol) as a transsexual, the transgender is because I'm male styled and it's been a negative to my life.  While to someone else being transgender is a positive, an expression of themselves.

Despite the whole negative experience, not bullying or anything like that the quiet negative the life chances the things that really matter, I also know a woman can do something male as good as the best man ever can, (and vice-a -versa). That's positive transgender, and one of the lessons I learnt, it's thoughts like that that made me think gender doesn't matter, but it does, being female matters, transsexual feelings about the body for one, and it's influence on gender.

There is a big diferance in a preacher demanding the rightous indignation of a comunity bassed on religous fervor and a member of susans making speculations and musings on gender.

Quote from: cynthialee on May 12, 2011, 02:04:24 PM
There is a big diferance in a preacher demanding the rightous indignation of a comunity bassed on religous fervor and a member of susans making speculations and musings on gender.

Should I detect offence at my comment? At the risk of pushing this topic to far off track, I just need to clarify a bit further, I guess. However, I promise, this will be my last comment on the subject herein.

There was no attempt to connect what the person here on Susan's was saying, as being in any way the same, or in connection to what the preacher-man said. Simply, the point was; when someone reacts to something someone says (in the light of being offended), it's not necessarily based upon insecurity. It's likely more so based upon sensitivity to the subject matter being discussed.  Big difference.

Enjoy your day!


Dawn

awww Valerie, hugs back always

Ooohhh! I like hugs!

Thanks, Valerie! to you too!


Dawn