Kia Ora,

  It would seem for some trans-people when they start on HRT, they also have a change of sexual "preference"...That is, they say their sexual orientation has changed... Example,  for the M2F prior to HRT they are/were "only" attracted to women, so in a sense this would make them [because of their true psycho-sexual identity] "lesbian", but after starting on HRT, they start to bat for the other side, gradually the male species, whom they had no interest in whatsoever, [  so they say]begins to attract them sexually...

I personally believe one's core sexual orientation doesn't/can't change, but is just released when one begins to feel more comfortable with one's gender identity...

If HRT can change ones SO then where does this leave those who are born "homosexual"[those members of the gay community] ? The average male homosexual's testosterone levels according to some research, ranges from normal to high, so to pump them full of  testosterone [which has already been tried to "cure" homosexuality" to no avail I might add ] will do nothing to change their orientation...I'm no expert on sexual orientation, and haven't read much on the female homosexuals but I'm "guessing" this would be similar, that is, visa versa...

So could it be ones core sexual orientation, just like ones core gender identity is fixed at birth, but depending on ones environment [whether it's trans/homophilic or trans/homophobic] would greatly dictate  how deeply ones SO & GI are entrenched  in the closet...

On a personal level, I haven't been to Egypt but when it comes to my true sexual and gender identity, mentally I've floated down denial many times in the past...

The other thing when one states HRT has changed their SO, is some fundamentalist groups can pick up on this and use what some members of the trans-community believe is the case, to promote their "reparative therapy" by hormone replacement and the good old "Trust in Jesus and you'll be cured!"   

Well what do you think? Is sexual Orientation fixed at birth? Or can change on HRT? Or is ones mind still floating down the river in Egypt..."denial"?

"Food for thought for some and unpalatable perhaps for others!"

Metta Zenda

Do the women who gain a sexual attraction towards men typically lose their attraction towards women?

Kia Ora, [and thanks for contributing]

  I'm not quite sure what you mean by "Gain a sexual attraction" R2T... 

  But here's another theory on the sexual orientation of gender dysphoric people...So..."Believe it........Or not....." 

I believe all humans are born with bisexual qualities[some with a lean more to the same sex, some more so to the opposite sex and some more on an equal par ], however ones social conditioning could plays a part in how we behave/express ourselves when interacting with others... Most of us [like the socially driven creatures we are], tend to conform to the society's heteronormative standards, for fear of being ostracised    ...

And another interesting thing that Sarah's comments have brought  to mind- regarding the transsexual "brain"...Is, after one starts HRT, for many people their libido drops, causing them to lose interest in sex...Now this drop in libido could also be the key that unlocks ones true sexual orientation, and as ones libido begins to "gradually" pick up again[as it does for most people so I'm told], it does so without mental restraints that one had put in place when having to conform to social norms...

  Now, I could be way off the mark on this one...But it does sound somewhat feasible...Well to me anyway...But then I'm weird anyway...

Metta Zenda  

  I came across a survey that says that 60% of M-F transsexuals changed their sexual preference while on HRT/SRS.  It took on the average 3 years to do so.  So far, my HRT experience actually enhanced my preference for women,  I noticed this just the past month.  Maybe there will be something good that will come out of this.  I'm old but I am still hoping. 
  Joelene. 

How much of the switch is from hormones and how much is from giving up hopes of a heteronormative life?  New possibilities tend to open up for people that become open to new possibilities.  Funny how that works .

I don't really fit into your model very well, but maybe you can learn something from my experience?  I tried really hard to be attracted to women and failed utterly.  I never was actually attracted to either sex until I finally admitted the (beyond obvious) truth about which gender I actually belonged to.  Then, strangely enough, I started to be attracted to guys.  I was rather surprised by that development.  All of that happened long before HRT.  However, my attraction to guys went into hyperdrive on HRT.  Before HRT I had pretty much zero libido, now it's probably normal or a little less than normal- which is a lot for me.

Jen,
  Yes, we're opposites!  I think you are more of a completed woman inside than I.  I was the opposite, I had the high libedo whilst my most of friends just younger than I were taking Viagra!  There are a lot like me here on this Forum, one reason I joined. 
  My case might be a type of reset or I could change my preference later.  The HRT did change things I didn't expect.  I am more open to that now.  I am taking it easy and go with the flow. 
  Joelene

Quote from: Jen on May 16, 2011, 11:35:47 PM

Kia Ora Jen,

"How much of the switch is from hormones and how much is from giving up hopes of a heteronormative life?  New possibilities tend to open up for people that become open to new possibilities.  Funny how that works .

I don't really fit into your model very well, but maybe you can learn something from my experience?  I tried really hard to be attracted to women and failed utterly[Jen. male homosexuals friends have also told me something similar-their wish to be attracted to females which no matter how "hard" they tried just didn't eventuate] I never was actually attracted to either sex[similar again] until I finally admitted the (beyond obvious) truth about which gender I actually belonged to[in their case it was the truth about their sexual orientation].  Then, strangely enough, I started to be attracted to guys[same again, but not strangely enough with them  ].  I was rather surprised by that development.  All of that happened long before HRT.  However, my attraction to guys went into hyperdrive on HRT[just imagine what it would be like for a gay male to be pumped full of testosterone-the mind boggles  ].  Before HRT I had pretty much zero libido, now it's probably normal or a little less than normal- which is a lot for me". Jen if we compare apples with apples focusing on that is the suppression[consciously or unconsciously] of ones sexual orientation,[leaving gender identity out of the equation] you would also fix quite neatly into my model...

Thank you Jen, it's good to hear how others experience things....I hope you don't mind the comparison I used...And not for one minute do I think you are a gay male, I was just pointing out the similarities...How the gay and transgender paths can cross... 

Metta Zenda

Well my sexual orientation always has been very fluid. It can and does change according to my mood and who I am around.

To be honest I don't really understand what "gender" is (or at least I am more or less blind to it). All I know about is physical sex as in male or female. I think possibly my "gender" whatever that is may also be flexible but my physical sexual identity is firmly female and has been since my earliest awareness of it.

I self define as bisexual because I know that I can be attracted to either.

For me the thing which introduced some degree of obstacle prior to SRS was the "mechanics" of male / male coupling. Basically I cant abide anal to the point of utter revulsion.

Since SRS the mechanics of male / female coupling have been very good but of course female / female is also entirely satisfactory so I am spoiled choice.

What I would say now is that in terms of the physical act hetrosexual sex possibly has the slight edge, but in terms of the emotional bond and companionship in a relationship a woman will usually get to me better. So I find it impossible to choose. Both are wonderful and if I could I would live in a situation where I could have both.

I used to think that made me weird - but I read somewhere that typically women do have a more fluid sexuality than men so perhaps I'm just a normal woman who happens to have ended up in a situation where my latent bisexual potential has been given free expression.

Quote from: Sarah7 on May 17, 2011, 01:59:16 AM
I don't personally believe in the "everyone is bisexual" theory. There is evidence of societies in which bisexuality, rather than heterosexuality was the norm... however, there is a great distance between suggesting a majority of persons might have some potential for attraction to any sex and suggesting that every single person does. The concept is too narrow. If sexuality is a spectrum then why would there be nobody at all on the poles? And why do people risk their lives to be true to their identities in extremely homophobic societies, if attraction to the opposite sex was an option to any degree? No. I'm willing to accept that there are a lot more (somewhat) bi people than is currently apparent, but not that we all are.

But then I personally have never been attracted to a guy, and HRT, while (thankfully) reducing my sex drive, has not changed that - nor do I honestly expect it to. I identified as a gay girl for more than a few years before I started transitioning. I'm not repelled or disgusted by blokes, I'm... nothing. I can even perceive when a guy is particularly good looking. But I don't feel that pull of mind and body and soul, like whatever circuitry in my head was supposed to trigger for attraction to guys is just dead. Not that I really care. I'm more than happy with my current orientation.

Kia Ora Sarah, Thanks for your response...

If you read what I wrote you will find I didn't mean/say that everybody was 100% bisexual at birth, what I was getting at was there's no 100% of anything...Some lean more to the same sex whilst others tend to lean more to the opposite sex and how much one leans varies greatly... Those who say/believe they are 100% are according to some research a rare breed- few and far between...So Sarah I too don't believe that everybody is "100%" bisexual, but I do believe we all have bisexual tendencies-some more closeted than others...

Homosexuality is still looked down upon in most Western heteronormative societies and the "average" Jo or Joanne isn't openly going to discloses their attraction[whether this be even the slightest attraction] to the same sex...for fear of being ridiculed or worse...

When it comes to sexual orientation one can look at the male prison population for example, most inside see themselves as "heterosexual" but quite often many so called "heterosexuals" perform "homosexual" acts...

Sexuality is not as clear cut as some would believe...

Metta Zenda

Kia Ora Jenny,

I also read the same thing about women's sexual orientation being more fluid than the males and this would also make a lot of sense when I think of most women I know...

Metta Zenda    

Sexually pre and post HRT mostly sexually attracted to females as a female, but occasionally attracted to males as female. Gender wise always a female pre and post HRT.  Here is the weird part, I found I can only fell in love with females, and kissing is for me an act of love. So, I cannot and have never kiss a guy even when having sex with them. Taken all of what I stated above plus what I learn form science, and others, I believe that there  are three center in our brain: gender identity, sexual orientation, and love attraction centers. I believe -based on the state of science knowledge- that this center are genetically determined in uterus, but that are plastic and that can be modified to some degree post natal by chemicals and to a lesser extent by life experiences. There are medical evidence of people radically changing their gender identity or sexual orientation after physical trauma to the brain, without having had  any previous history of homosexuality or GID, respectively. I also read a medical report of a man who after smoking a chemical reported to an ER demanding SRS -imagine what would had happen if we would have obliged  , his GID was temporary.

Food for tough, eh?

Shalom,

Kate D

I don't personally believe in a "core sexual orientation" because I don't particularly believe in sexual orientation in the first place. My sense is that we're culturally indoctrinated to believe there's a "spectrum", and we therefore must have a "position on it", simply because that's how we tend to think about things: fixed, quantifiable, digital. There's so much unnecessary suffering caused by people having to wonder "what am I?" instead of just being attracted to individual people at the time and not needing a word for it.

Over the years, my "orientation" has, like Jenny's, wandered about like a pilgrim, dependant on... what? Who knows. So many possible influences that might lead to me having, at a particular time, a particular tendency more towards men or women or celibacy or or or. Some of it emotional, some of it cultural, some of it psychic, some of it biochemical, interesting to speculate, impossible to know all the conditions. I've totted up the over 80 people I've fallen for over the years, and they come down pretty much 50/50 men and women, but that's over an almost 40 year period. Right now I have a new attraction to (in my perception) straight-looking men, which has replaced my previous interest in androgynous pretty-boys, but I'm still very attracted to wiry dykey gals. And then I fall for someone, and it's because of their smile more often than anything else.

I've mostly identified myself as bisexual in the past (except when I was pretending to myself I was gay, in order to cover up that I was running away from women), but since I actually started meeting other transgender/androgyne people, it feels much more sensible to call myself polysexual, in that first I'm attracted to someone, and then find out what they're nominal gender is, and I'm realising these days you can't assume someone's gender or gender identity from outward appearance.

And if I'm attracted to someone, I'm much more interested in whether they fancy me back than what they identify as! After all, there's no advantage in being (for example) a bi woman attracted to a gay/bi woman or a straight/bi man, if they're not attracted to me! It's always made me laugh with frustration in the past when I've told a guy I fancy him, and he's said "sorry, I'm not gay..." instead of just saying "sorry, I don't fancy you."

Re: Sexual orientation like gender identity... Does it develop in the womb?

I don't know whether it does or not. But I think our case is different than cispeoples. They get one puberty with one set of hormones. Isn't most people's sexual orientation discovered or clarified during puberty? I think it's possible introducing massive levels of the opposite hormone into the body could trigger something lying dormant in the brain.
And I doubt sexual orientation is as fixed for everybody as we're supposed to believe. Why was the majority of men in ancient Greece and Rome and other societies bisexual and now we're to believe more than 90% of men are hetero? I can see all those powerful patrician men banging all those boys against their will...
Clearly, there are societal factors at work.

Sarah, I think you're making assumptions about my assumptions . I don't believe sexuality is predetermined, but that doesn't imply that I don't believe or welcome people with a stable orientation, since that's clearly very common. I don't know what causes that stability any more than I know what causes other people's wandering sexuality, but since both happen among all kinds of people, it's fair to question the original proposition that sexual orientation is always gender determined and fixed.

It strikes me that when it comes to sexuality as well as gender, it's very easy to make declarative statements that other people feel threatened or invalidated by by, so I apologise if I did that too. I must admit that I felt that myself in response to Zenda's original declarative statement that everyone has a fixed sexual orientation, and they just don't know it yet. This is probably why I came on a bit strong in refuting that position. So I'll try not to take you writing "I find this argument very similar to the gender-is-constructed argument that seeks to invalidate the concept of GID" as implying that I'm a transphobe . There's room for much diversity in the human experience.

Don't slink on my account (unless you look good slinking) , it's easy to get worked up about this stuff - I'm sorry if I came across as too polarised about it.

Up to a year ago I'd have quite happily described myself as bisexual, about 80% other women to 20% guys, but slowly it's changed to 100% other women and no interest at all in guys except purely as platonic friends so I'm quite happy to describe myself as a lesbian and live my life as a homosexual woman

Kia Ora,

  Thanks for your interesting responses so far !

I'm happy that you are able to police yourselves and not let things get out of hand[after all they are only words and if one take offence, this would be their choice, as it's not my intention to offend]...  However I'm sure your thoughts on this topic have also got others thinking more deeply about who they are and how they really feel...

  We all have a right to our opinions, and you have every right to point out the flaws in my "theories", after all that's all they are "theories" base upon my "personal" beliefs...I take no offence if you do...

However  when it comes to sexual orientation, as many here have already mentioned, we may never truly known how the other person is really "feeling" ...

Sexual orientation is all about how honest, open and "comfortable" one is to/with  "oneself" about ones feelings... Due to social pressures to conform, it's possible some pre-transitioners have ended up with much deeper closets when it comes to their true sexual feelings...

One interesting observation about myself, is as an asexual bi-romantic/affectionate person, I'm just attracted to "people", that is I'm "gender-blind" when it comes to finding someone attraction in a non sexual way ...

However most cisgender people I know or whom I interact with in public [who don't know of my past] assume I'm a "heterosexual" woman[ no doubt this is also the case for most here unless we wear a "T" stating our preference] ...And because I have children and  that's considered the "norm" in a heteronormative society, they "label" me as "normal" ...When in fact I far from what they would call "normal" if they knew 

Metta Zenda

Quote from: Zenda on May 17, 2011, 02:28:01 PM
Kia Ora,

  Thanks for your interesting responses so far !

I'm happy that you are able to police yourselves and not let things get out of hand[after all they are only words and if one take offence, this would be their choice, as it's not my intention to offend]...  However I'm sure your thoughts on this topic have also got others thinking more deeply about who they are and how they really feel...

  We all have a right to our opinions, and you have every right to point out the flaws in my "theories", after all that's all they are "theories" base upon my "personal" beliefs...I take no offence if you do...

However  when it comes to sexual orientation, as many here have already mentioned, we may never truly known how the other person is really "feeling" ...

Sexual orientation is all about how honest, open and "comfortable" one is to/with  "oneself" about ones feelings... Due to social pressures to conform, it's possible some pre-transitioners have ended up with much deeper closets when it comes to their true sexual feelings...

One interesting observation about myself, is as an asexual bi-romantic/affectionate person, I'm just attracted to "people", that is I'm "gender-blind" when it comes to finding someone attraction in a non sexual way ...

However most cisgender people I know or whom I interact with in public [who don't know of my past] assume I'm a "heterosexual" woman[ no doubt this is also the case for most here unless we wear a "T" stating our preference] ...And because I have children and  that's considered the "norm" in a heteronormative society, they "label" me as "normal" ...When in fact I far from what they would call "normal" if they knew 

Metta Zenda

Shalom Metta Zenda,,

I enjoy your posting very much, and I have pick up a thing or two from them. I know that people use "theory" to refer to something not proven, but accurately speaking a theory is a set of scientifically proven fact that partially explain a phenomena. An hypothesis on the other hand is what you and the rest here are conjuring.

Kate D

I can only answer from my experience, which is in no way to say this applies to everyone.  I do however believe the tendency toward a certain orientation is fixed at birth, but can be otherwise influenced by many factors, not the least of which in the case of those of us with transsexual history who were male born is severe prolonged testosterone poisoning.  To quote Xander from the old Buffy series, when asked if looking at guns made him want to have sex, he replied, "I'm 17.  Looking at linoleum makes me want to have sex."  Ah, the stereotypical hormone fueled raging male libido.  But such mixed signals from our bodies can cause those of us who were transsexual born much confusion concerning our orientations.

Then there's the interesting notion that a lot of what passes in those cases of attraction for those who have female brains in male-equipped bodies might simply be attraction of a different sort- that of wanting to BE the object of attraction.  That seems plausible, especially since having sex with someone is about the closest thing I can think of to becoming one with that person.  I used to consider myself bisexual, but I understand now that was because I could never relate to being a gay man, yet the testosterone made me pretty much perpetually horny (see the quote in the first paragraph).  It was a real problem because I hated it, yet had no control over it.  Still I had many male partners, despite not relating well to gay men.

Now that the proper hormones have cleared up my thinking, I realize that I am a heterosexual woman and always have been.  I have no real sexual attraction to women at all, and understand what I thought was a bisexual attraction previously was simply a deeper yearning to be myself.  I've thought about it, and cannot imagine now what I would even do with a woman; there really is no desire in that direction.  Sex with men for me is ultimately more fulfilling than before, first of course because I now have female body parts but also for the very reason that I now fully understand both my orientation and my gender identity.  I wasn't a gay man because I wasn't a man, and I'm simply not a gay woman either.

Hormones can and do change our brain chemistries and how we think about things dramatically.  But as for changing orientation, I think it's more a matter that sometimes getting the right hormones can help us to sort out our true orientation rather than doing anything to actually "change" it.  I don't know if this explains the inordinate percentage of MtF transsexuals who are lesbian identified, but that's really none of my business anyway. I had a hard enough time sorting out my own sexuality, much less anyone else's, lol

Quote from: Forum Admin on May 17, 2011, 07:20:53 AM
Re: Sexual orientation like gender identity... Does it develop in the womb?

I don't know whether it does or not. But I think our case is different than cispeoples. They get one puberty with one set of hormones. Isn't most people's sexual orientation discovered or clarified during puberty? I think it's possible introducing massive levels of the opposite hormone into the body could trigger something lying dormant in the brain.
And I doubt sexual orientation is as fixed for everybody as we're supposed to believe. Why was the majority of men in ancient Greece and Rome and other societies bisexual and now we're to believe more than 90% of men are hetero? I can see all those powerful patrician men banging all those boys against their will...
Clearly, there are societal factors at work.

I think this is very true.  Our experiences are very unreliable sources for understanding the nature of "cispeople's" sexuality and orientations, especially for the reasons Nero and Chloe (and maybe others, I don't remember) stated.  It really is no wonder we end up a bit confused.

With regard to the notion of fluidity in sexual orientation, while I agree that it no doubt does exist to a greater degree than people would have you believe, I also want to just point out that if everybody was fluid in their attractions, I would have had a lot easier time finding women the least bit sexy when that was something I really wanted to be true.  I relate a lot to what Sarah said, especially about dead circuitry for the "pull of mind and body and soul" for me toward women, for her, men.

Quote from: kate durcal on May 17, 2011, 06:12:32 PM
Shalom Metta Zenda,,

I enjoy your posting very much, and I have pick up a thing or two from them. I know that people use "theory" to refer to something not proven, but accurately speaking a theory is a set of scientifically proven fact that partially explain a phenomena. An hypothesis on the other hand is what you and the rest here are conjuring.

Kate D

Kia Ora  Kate,

Thanks for pointing this out , but I should also point out "English" is my second language...My native tongue is "Cockney"  ...Not within the sound of the Bow Bells Cockney but Cockney none the less...South East London Cockney=Elephant & Castle... 

  When I use the term theory I use it in the colloquial sense, and not the scientific one...However  you're right, hypothesis would be a more appropriate term to use...
But then I'm sure most responders here would know that my theories are just my "hunches" and nothing more...

BTW these terms, "theory" "hypothesis" I was not taught at school, English was not my best subject , hence why I'm a bit of a loose cannon when it comes to the English language...

So please bear with me people and be patience...   "Patience is a virtue!"

BTW again...Thank you to all those who have contributed so far, all your comment are "food for thought"

Metta Zenda