Such a sad note to bring on a lovely day

The article notes state Rep. Janice Pauls' opposition. Her arguments are noteworthy for their denial of the realities of people who are lesbian, gay, bisexual and transgendered.
[...]
• "Those of a different sexual orientation should not be a protected class such as blacks because blacks have no choice in their color." Pauls resorts to well-known arguments, heralded by the same Christian evangelicals, that homosexuals can simply change their choice.

Our country was founded on the ideas of "Life, Liberty, and the presuit of happyness...."  Why does it seem some of our elected oficials, and so many people in positions of power are out to take exactly those away from us?

Religion is definitely a choice. Does that mean it's open season on fundamentalist Christians?

Dennis

"Shhhhhhhhh......  Its cwistian hunting season huhuhuhuhuhuhuhuhu."

Quote from: LynnER on February 09, 2007, 12:35:56 PM
"Shhhhhhhhh......  Its cwistian hunting season huhuhuhuhuhuhuhuhu."

LOL, well, to be fair, it's not christianity that's the problem. It's the ignorant bigots who USE it to justify their hate and self-righteousness.

Kate

Good point Kate. 

They say homosexuality is a choice.  This would imply that heterosexuality is also a choice.  So, if it's a 50/50 thing, then why aren't there more gays?  I think they truly do believe it's a choice and one reason they try to hide it from children.  By the kids not knowing about homosexuality, then they wouldn't ever become gay.  Right...

Melissa

Because the 50/50 choice does reset with each and every person in which you ask.  So in taking the numbers and adding them up and then using whatever method that you like to determine an average will leave you with a number less or more than 50% but still does not change the fact that when a person was asked that the chances are 50/50.

But that assumes the black and white and forgetting the hints of grey in between.  Fortunately those are around to shadow one and highlight the other and does then wreak great havok with the percentages.

Even if someone makes the point that it's less than 50% because of people "being given religion and them deciding to embrace God," the groups of non-religious still tend to have rates of homosexuality consistent with Christian cultures.  If they say that even people who haven't been given God know the difference between right and wrong (then what point does Christianity serve), bring up that animals also tend to have rates of homosexuality well under 50%.  If they argue it is a disorder, ask them if baldness or [having whatever color hair, eyes, or whatever superficial body feature they have that doesn't happen to lead to a controversial topic] -- if they mention a real disorder (like obesity, heart disease), remind them that these things pose observable health difficulties -- if they mention anal tearing, mention there can be vaginal tearing.  If they mention "sex not being used for procreation," ask them about "Christian" couples that have sex after they turn 45, or that use any contraception (even the "rhythm" method is still a means of contraception).  If they talk about "sex outside of marriage," remind them that it's their fault for not allowing gays to marry.  If they say that same-sex marriage is wrong, get them to say homosexuality is wrong, and refer them back to step 1.

Quote from: Kaelin on February 09, 2007, 02:42:22 PM
Even if someone makes the point that it's less than 50% because of people "being given religion and them deciding to embrace God," the groups of non-religious still tend to have rates of homosexuality consistent with Christian cultures...  If they say that same-sex marriage is wrong, get them to say homosexuality is wrong, and refer them back to step 1.

I understand, but it doesn't work with these people. They're not looking to understand, they're looking to justify. If what you're offering doesn't justify their bigotries, they just ignore it. You can back them into a corner with flawless logic, but they'll still snap back into quoting whatever biblical verses they found to support their ignorance. They don't *think*, there's no chain of if-then, they're just unthinking and unquestioning foot soldiers of a larger entity of hatred and exclusion which they've sold their soul and individuality to.

There MUST be another way to reach them.

Kate

If there was a reasonable way to reach them we wouldnt be haveing this conversation......

Quote from: Kate on February 09, 2007, 01:53:54 PM

Quote from: LynnER on February 09, 2007, 12:35:56 PM
"Shhhhhhhhh......  Its cwistian hunting season huhuhuhuhuhuhuhuhu."

LOL, well, to be fair, it's not christianity that's the problem. It's the ignorant bigots who USE it to justify their hate and self-righteousness.

Kate

I think it was Ghandi who said, "I like your Christ.  I do not care for your Christians."

Chaunte

I liked Ghandi.  We need more like him.

Cindi

In that vein, I think rather highly of MLK.  Of course, we need more like him.

I find it easy to agree with Gandhi. Although I better qualify that: I agree as it applies to those who won't listen to reason. It's ironic how so many of the most extremely religious folks don't live by all the be-nice-to-people type stuff that was taught by the person they claim to be followers of, whereas nonbelievers in my experience typically do hold such values.

Quote from: Kate on February 09, 2007, 01:53:54 PM

Quote from: LynnER on February 09, 2007, 12:35:56 PM
"Shhhhhhhhh......  Its cwistian hunting season huhuhuhuhuhuhuhuhu."

LOL, well, to be fair, it's not christianity that's the problem. It's the ignorant bigots who USE it to justify their hate and self-righteousness.

Kate

From a Christian woman...thank you Kate.

Quote from: Melissa on February 09, 2007, 02:07:49 PM
Good point Kate. 

They say homosexuality is a choice.  This would imply that heterosexuality is also a choice.  So, if it's a 50/50 thing, then why aren't there more gays?  I think they truly do believe it's a choice and one reason they try to hide it from children.  By the kids not knowing about homosexuality, then they wouldn't ever become gay.  Right...

Melissa

It's all a choice , but not in the sense of saying eenie meenie minie mo...it is a choice in allowing ones ownself to be who we REALLY are and saying screw the rest of yas that don't get it. Then it becomes their choice, which is where the real problem lies.

Quote from: LynnER on February 09, 2007, 04:31:59 PM
If there was a reasonable way to reach them we wouldnt be haveing this conversation......

Not so, ya all have reached me...

I may be wrong but I feel that the passed down teachings that should be given further thought will see little change as long as the offering plate dictates church doctrine rather than the word.
Tiff

Quote from: Tiffany Elise on February 12, 2007, 01:19:31 AM
I may be wrong but I feel that the passed down teachings that should be given further thought will see little change as long as the offering plate dictates church doctrine rather than the word.
Tiff

I see change happening.  It's a slow process to be sure.  But I think that in a couple generations, most of this won't be a big deal.  Of course, that's of no help to any of us.  But just think of the major hurdles science had to face in the dark ages.  Sometimes it took hundreds of years to accept something new.

So I take my hat off to salute you all... .the pioneers.

Chin up

Cindi