I hope this question doesn't appear too totally ignorant but I just gotta ask.

If transgender people are only transgender until the time they align their body and gender what kind of church would you all go to?

Like prior to surgery would you find any accepting church or are there transgender churches out there?

After surgery would you just go as the gender you are with no mention of the past?

Like I said, I hope this isn't offensive or anything but some of these things are quite new to me.

There are some accepting churches, preop or postop.

For example: Unity; Unitarian Universalist; United Church of Christ; most Episcopalian churches in the USA. I'm sure folks will mention others.

My church (Unity) knew about me from the first Easter service when I showed up as Robyn and introduced the real me. My husband and I were married in Unity two years later while we were both preop. 

Robyn

Hi Del
As you know I'm not religious, but your question begs a question.  Why should your gender affect what Church you go to? I presume by Church you mean religion? If the religion cannot accept you as you; why should you follow it?


Sorry,
I don't mean or want to be provocative.

Cindy

Quote from: CindyJames on May 27, 2011, 04:19:57 AM
I presume by Church you mean religion? If the religion cannot accept you as you; why should you follow it?

I take quite the opposite view, Cindy. By "religion" you mean "churches." I know of no religion that officially and unanimously condemns ->-bleeped-<- (not even excepting Catholicism; the Pope's Catholic, but Catholic isn't the Pope). Churches, on the other hand, can be accepting or condemning. I'm much more worried about them than the religion you follow.

Ladies,
  The reason I ask is because I live in a small town with small churches. The only time I have been to big towns has been on vacation. In these small towns everyone knows everyone. If there are any transgenders out here our paths have not crossed or they weren't in church when I visited.
  I did as search of affirming churches and they are listed as not being such. I pretty much figured that was why I didn't see any gay or transgenders.
  These small communities are way different than big cities. It seems that many times the things that go on in the bigger towns are not really welcomed and if present kept secret.
  It's not in my place to judge. I merely am wondering. Having never seen any transgender or gay people away from work (in a big city) I wondered if transgender or gay folk had their own churches. I reckon if I was brought up or lived in a big town I would crossed paths with transgenders or gays at one time or another.
  I guess there is that part of me that wonders if through the course of evangelizing I may one day be visiting a church where some are. It doesn't matter to me as I personally believe one should go to church to worship Jesus and not make it a social event. Still in all, it would be good to know how to react and treat such people if that would happen. The sermon should come from God by the Spirit but when interacting with them before and after the service I would never want to offend them. That is one reason I keep reading posts on this site.
  Thank you for your answers.

Hi Del.

I personally, don't go to church. Jesus made it clear that it is not compulsary or necessary.

But if I were to I would never go to any church or any other place that held preconceptions that they wouldn't accept me or part of me. Equally, anyone else who was similar to me.

If a church claimed that such or such was a sin, I would ask them wheere they found that. There are only 10 sins and even Jesus didn't add to them. If this church considers itself to have greater authority than Jesus then I would really need some reason to accept that.

I appreciate that some people, considered so worthy as to be quoted in the Bible have made pronouncements. It certainly isn't my place to question them, especialy since, from the quotations of them that do appear in the Bible, I can have no way of knowing the context or questioning them. But I am equally certain that they would be utterly horrified of someone were to suggest that their words were superior to Jesus' or that they ever presumed the authority to add to the 10 commandments.

Quote from: Lisbeth on May 27, 2011, 07:04:51 AM
I take quite the opposite view, Cindy. By "religion" you mean "churches." I know of no religion that officially and unanimously condemns ->-bleeped-<- (not even excepting Catholicism; the Pope's Catholic, but Catholic isn't the Pope). Churches, on the other hand, can be accepting or condemning. I'm much more worried about them than the religion you follow.

Yes I agree, I misinterpreted the text.

Cindy

Quote from: Del on May 27, 2011, 08:44:34 AM
Having never seen any transgender or gay people away from work (in a big city) I wondered if transgender or gay folk had their own churches. I reckon if I was brought up or lived in a big town I would crossed paths with transgenders or gays at one time or another.

You may have crossed paths and not have known it.  You can't determine someone's sexual orientation by their looks, the same as you can't always tell a person's biological gender by how they appear.

Quote from: Del on May 27, 2011, 08:44:34 AM
  I guess there is that part of me that wonders if through the course of evangelizing I may one day be visiting a church where some are. It doesn't matter to me as I personally believe one should go to church to worship Jesus and not make it a social event. Still in all, it would be good to know how to react and treat such people if that would happen. The sermon should come from God by the Spirit but when interacting with them before and after the service I would never want to offend them. That is one reason I keep reading posts on this site.
  Thank you for your answers.

Why not treat "them"  like you would anybody else?  You mentioned not wanting to offend before or after the service, but what about during it?  Maybe I'm wrong, but I get the feeling that you might be one who preaches against homosexuality or transgender (two completely different things).

Robertina,
  The wording on many of my posts leave a lot to be desired. That I admit.
  The part about the way to treat transgenders before and after a service falls in line with my original reason to come here to learn how to treat transgenders at work. The differences between those who are out vs stealth vs pre-op vs post-op and such. Taking each case on an individual item and not just blindly lumping all transgenders in the same boat. The same with gay people. I do not wish to lump them together in respect to active vs celibate vs out vs not out and such.
  The sermons I preach I do not control. I personally believe that ministers should preach Christ from the laws and prophets as to who he is and what he fulfilled and why he is the better hope for a life to come should we endure unto the end. I would rather preach about having faith in the Lord Jesus Christ and leave straight, gay and transgender issues out of it. The sermons I preach come forth from the Holy Ghost and make up for my lack of education. Also, by trusting the Holy Ghost to give the sermon I also prefer not to know about the people I preach to. Straight, gay or transgender. I do not want my mind to taint the sermon.
  For the record though. In my introduction post I did make it clear that I do not agree with transgender beliefs.
  But. If you look at my posts you will see that I have never posted anything to hurt anyone or try to "convert" or "heal" them. Most of my posts are questions or sharing what I believe to be truth about scripture in reference to those who do bash you all. The main focus has been to learn for the sake of interaction in the workforce and in services.
  I am sorry if I gave the impression that I am a gay or transgender basher. It was poor wording from a person not highly educated.
 

When there are no openly welcoming churches in your area (Open and Affirming, Reconciling, More Light, or any of a variety of other labels), I suggest that you look for a church that has at least one woman pastor. The presence of a woman in the pulpit suggests that they are more open to liberal ideas than the typical Southern Baptist mentality, and you may have a chance of being accepted there.

Specifically to Del: The important thing to do is treat trans-people with kindness and respect. That is really all most of us want.

Hey Del.  Again I appreciate that even though you don't believe in  transgender issues, you are willing to look into them.  I accepted Jesus as my Lord and Savior at a young age.  I also knew, at that young age, I was a man.  And, being trans, is a birth defect like any other.  You would'nt allow a child with a cleft palate of club feet, to stay as they are, if there is a surgery that will help.  So, my birth defect is one that can't be seen by the human eye.  Does that make it less real?
As for what church would I attend?  Only a church that preaches the Bible.  And not a belief that a minister says.."This is the way it is...end of story."  If one religion fit us all, we would have all been born the same.  But, we were born, unique individuals.  And, I believe that God has a unique relationship with all of us.  I believe that is why the Bible says, it is subject to interpretation.  The reason why, you can read a passage of scripture, I can read the same, and get two interpretations.  God gives us what we need,,,at that time.  And, we are both right....guided by the Holy Spirit. 

I'm confirmed Episcopalian, but I quite going after our female priest (who I just adored) left and the parish got a male priest that was ultra conservative and who thought it proper to share his dismissive thoughts about gays with the local paper.  At the same time the Episcopal church was having an internal struggle between conservatives and liberals in regards to homosexuality and same-sex marriage.  Some of the conservatives were still upset that women were now allowed to be priests and bishops.  The LA diocese upset many by electing a lesbian bishop - a double whammy for some, but I applauded the decision.  I stopped going to church because it would have been to far for me to travel to a more liberal diocese, and the tone of the diocese is usually set by the bishop since there is so much autonomy.  Some Episcopal churches feel more like baptist churches to me, and others feel very much catholic, so there is much diversity. 

Not sure if I would ever go back or not.  If I just did not have such a personal problem with the new pope and a couple other issues with the church, I would become Roman Catholic.

As with my other question (Credibility) I would like to thank everyone for their honest answers.
Take care.

Hello Del,

Being in the situation i am in i would never recommend anyone doing what i am suppose to do. I am in a Lutheran Church Missouri Synod and i do know what the pastors are to do when a person comes to them stating they are transgendered.  (Their stand is convoluted to say the least)

That being said i do believe God has confirmed that this is where i am to be for the time being. I am by no means happy about it but it is what it is. He will call some to stand up but i believe we need to be sure that it is His will and calling for our lives and not our own doing.  If not we may find we are standing alone because He is not in it.

Personally i think the first thing to look at is if what Jesus said and did is reflected in the lives of the members of that congregation. Because i believe that if the love of Jesus is alive and well in the congregation it will show in the actions of the members and it will be a congregation that has life and meaning and it will be real and not a facade. It does not mean they will agree with me but there will be love and acceptance.

To me christianity has been distorted ever since constantine got involved and switched the sabbath from sat to sun. The only true group of believers i have found that agrees with me is the twelvetribes.org and yes they do not accept (active) gays but they do accept transgenders. They did accept me. I have since left them to take care of my mother but one day i hope to go back. Now i won't be there as a female it will be as a male but only a spiritual one since i did have two children. Other transgenders can potentially stay their new genders depending on how god speaks to the community and their direction in Gods choice. They also unlike the christians believe in 3 eternal destinies whereas if a person is never to know God but lives righteous they won't be condemned unlike christianity which mostly condemns those who never knew god telling them they will go to hell if they do not believe. http://www.3eternaldestinies.org/

PS: They also let you live with them unlike any christian churches i know. They all don't own anything but share all things in common like acts 2 and 4 speaks

Quote from: Robyn on May 27, 2011, 02:10:05 AM
There are some accepting churches, preop or postop.

For example: Unity; Unitarian Universalist; United Church of Christ; most Episcopalian churches in the USA. I'm sure folks will mention others.

My church (Unity) knew about me from the first Easter service when I showed up as Robyn and introduced the real me. My husband and I were married in Unity two years later while we were both preop. 

Robyn

You may want to explore reform Judaism. Some Trans people have been ordain as rabbis

Stay away from: Catholics, evangelical, baptist, Mormons, Jehovah witness, Pentecostals

More important than the sign on the front of the building is the people in it.

There are some that are close minded and will interpret a few verses in a strange way to make up a whole doctrine to support their own internal biases and bigotry.  And there are plenty of people who won't.

I go to a large protestant denomination that isn't, as a denomination, fully supportive of LGBT issues.  But this individual church is.  And it was a lot more open to the "T" part of LGBT than a lot of the denominations that are supposedly affirming, at least in my area (which is probably not true elsewhere).

Del, one thing I'd suggest is to read about accounts of how churches responded to transgender members in the 50s through early 70s.  Before politics found religion (or was that religion found politics) through the Christian Coalition and such, and, thus, before being against gay marriage became the defining issue for the right wing, many very conservative (and anti-gay) churches were very open to trans- members, including accepting their proper gender.  This was related to the value of science at the time - people accepted that science and medicine could cure things, so it wasn't a huge problem to believe that medicine could cure being born with the wrong body.  This changed when the political groups and churches aligned together in the 80s.  It would be a fascinating study if only this social change didn't hurt and kill so many people.

Quote from: M2MtF2FtM on May 28, 2011, 07:22:49 PM
To me christianity has been distorted ever since constantine got involved and switched the sabbath from sat to sun.

I don't think the Saturday/Sunday thing has any significance, but it was Constantine who screwed Christianity up by making it the official Roman religion. That meant Christians going from counter-cultural to mainstream, upholding the Roman status quo. It made them the Roman equivalent of right-wing Republicans.

I was gently asked to leave a Presbyterian church many years ago. It was not for gender reasons.  They did not like people, especially young ones, who wondered why they were trying to pass off a lot of silly ideas as "Chritianity of the Apostles" when it was clear that we were NOT in the first century CE, and that ideas that were fresh then were not in existance today or even relevant.  Two years after I left it, the congregation folded, wondering why they were not getting new members.

Today, I am in an Episcopal Church parish that has known me for 23 years in my male role, and I have recently met with our Vestry (church administrative board) as my female self on the subject of my transitioning to female and remaining part of the parish.  While they are willing to have me stay as female, they are confused and uncertain about the subject of change and what it means to them and the other parishoners.  My change though comes at a time whey THEY NEED change in many ways to get the parish back up to its once impressive attendance numbers. On that issue alone, my priest, (whose daughter's spouse is a trans man) and I have formed an alliance to help them get that change under way. (My work had trained me as a Change Agent to help in the distress people feel in times of change, which we were doing rapidly there.)  My change has moved their zone of comfort out from them, and we are hoping that it will open them up to embracing other changes as well.  They are good people, and pretty normal in being afraid of change.  Keeping in mind, that Jesus was counter-orthodox to his church, the orthodoxy that creeps into any human organization needs to be kicked around from time to time to keep things alive and well.  I agree with Lisbeth that Constantine took a perfectly good social change activist syndicate and turned it into an orthodox prison guard.

Quote from: Del on May 27, 2011, 01:57:59 AM
I hope this question doesn't appear too totally ignorant but I just gotta ask.

If transgender people are only transgender until the time they align their body and gender what kind of church would you all go to?

Like prior to surgery would you find any accepting church or are there transgender churches out there?

After surgery would you just go as the gender you are with no mention of the past?

Like I said, I hope this isn't offensive or anything but some of these things are quite new to me.

Del, if a church is not accepting and embracing of its LGBT members and TS/TG members prior to going stealth, I would not want to associate with that church when I am in stealth.

I'm really big into embracing people no matter their journey