Shape Shifters....sounds like Beings from another universe. Transit Lounge?....Greyhound Bus Station?

This thread started off offensive and remains so.
If you are binary and wish to know more about non-binaries...don't continue to pretend like you know the answer to begin with.
Don't pretend to know you understand it at all, it's offensive.
Don't try to defend your ignorance of non-binaries, it's even more offensive.

I'd personally like to see this thread locked before it breeds anymore ill will between binaries and non-binaries.
It's turned into a no win, everyone will lose something of goodwill towards each other, thread.
Ativan

I came of age in a time and place, and with a group of people, who were challenging almost all aspects of 'societies concepts' from marriage and family, to 'success', to religion and spirituality, to the most basic ideas about the planet we're living on and our place within that web of life.  Gender, gender roles, sex and sexuality were just part of it.  Didn't think much of 'society' then, and given the years of experience since then, think even less of it now.

Why would I want the endorsement, or approval of those I don't endorse or approve of?

And I've never been much for hanging out in the lounge, that sounds like waiting, and waiting has never been my strong point.  But I'm pretty good at wandering, and as Tolkien says "All who wander are not lost."  So I wander on, and keep on rambling.  And the deeper point Tolkien was making, that not everything is as it appears, is also true, and has much bearing on what's being said here.  So I don't know what's happened to all those that were waiting for god, or some higher power, or some great miracle to intervene, but I guess it never came to them, and they continue to wait.  And, out on that road that goes ever on I've learned the the more people try to reinforce stereotypes, the less real they become.

I know I've met a lot of people who are like me in one way or the other, perhaps in many ways, but never have I met anyone who is like me in every way.  If you treat people like individuals, as opposed to a member of some group or another, then you'll find most of that wrong thinking simply slides by the wayside.

Kia Ora and a thank you to those for answering the questions...

That's all I was asking...no mountains out of mole hills, just how one views their world from a personal level, I guess in a sense you all have[in your own way] provided this thanks...

However it would seem  there will always be those who choose to see themselves as  "victims" in society, even when there's no real need for them to...An unfortunate habit that some tend to wear like a badge of honour ...

Thanks for all your responses folks... I'm aware of the struggles some of you face in your everyday life and have no wish to make you "feel" any more uncomfortable about yourselves than you already do...

I hope that the lives of those who feel somewhat challenged by some of my posts, will improve, but I guess this will only happen when one stop seeing oneself as the "victim" ...

Thanks again...

Metta Zenda

Zenda, I think it's disingenuous to write off people's arguments by labelling them as "victims" just because they're upset or angry as well as disagreeing with you.

My "position": I am basically female somatically but still male anatomically, but/and fairly androgyne (with a strong leaning towards tomboy) in many other respects, as far as I'm concerned. When I responded to your post, I gave you the benefit of the doubt and assumed that you were unaware of the array of assumptions built into your questions and statements at the head of this thread, and I can see you're surprised that they've upset some people. I have to say, I felt rather marginalised and patronised by your questions and statements myself, though I did my best to step to one side of that. I'll try and say why.

I think it's quite an assumption to say that "the vast majority of us" here are identified with a fixed gender, or even identified with gender as a concept in the first place; and quite an assumption to say that there's a fence to be sat on (or either side of) or some "destination" that androgyne people should be aiming for other than where they are already.

I felt set outside of some implied "trans norm" by the way your original post was worded. I think it's easy to be upset or angry when one feels threatened, and since I'm already dealing with a certain level of daily hostility from outside the trans community regarding whether I'm an acceptable part of the "vast majority" or not (as a non-straight non-man), it's not surprising that I (or others) might get easily defensive when that kind of language appears to crop up inside our own borders. It felt like a loaded question, and it feels important to unload it. Does this make sense to you? I'd really like to have a clearer idea what it was you were trying to ask under all that.

Tools of the establishment are almost always those that want to join, not those that actually are.

Kia Ora Padma,

How one reacts to what I've written is how one "chooses" to react... If I get angry or frustrated it's because of "me" I can't blame others...I don't find anger or frustration to be productive and it's not a pleasant feeling to have...That why I've learnt to control what "I'm" capable of creating...

A victim's mentality is just that, constantly on the look out for someone or something to blame for their predicament ...Where does ones "feelings" come from...outside ?

You have every right to your opinions and your "assumptions"...However if I'm wrong in stating that the vast majority of members here[at Susan's] in the long run wish to be seen and treated as the gender/sex opposite to their birth sex...then I can only apologise for making this assumption...

But I guess some people have a habit of reading more into what actually been said and for what  reason is anybody's guess...

We create our own problems and solutions...And it all boils down to how we "choose" to view/see life! And as a Buddhist practitioner of many years Padma, do you feel this is true ?

Have a nice day Padma and I really do mean this...

Metta Zenda

WOW!  Did you major in 'cop out'?  If not you missed your true calling.

And remember, how you react to that is up to you, not up to me.

We only have a certain amount of control over our feelings and what will or will not harm us.

The labeling of anyone as a perpetual victim as soon as they disagree with you is basicaly fighting words. It doesn't matter that you may be right. Saying that they are buying into victim mentality is just empowering that state of mind and seeking to engage it.

The saying stick and stones may break my bones but words may never hurt me, is a lie. Words can and do hurt. As a member of a 'othered' group in society I know yoy have to know this.

This is verging onto something quite different to the subject of the thread now.

Can we try and cool it down a bit, folks? It's getting a little hot in here.

Zenda,

I don't believe you had any intent to offend with the original post. However, as we all know, sometimes language used can offend out of ignorance. There are words and phrases about transsexuals that an outsider may use out of ignorance that are very much offensive. For androgynes often accused of sitting on the fence, this phrase can be grating.

If an androgyne came into our forum using language like 'shape shifters <insert equal analogy about fences here>' and asking if society will ever embrace our identity, I can just imagine how well that would go over...

It's a bit much to be able to write it off as 'ignorance' or 'incompetence' so I'm going with the 3rd 'i' word, intentional.

Kia Ora,

  My humble apologies  ...No offence meant, but I guess some taken...

I won't attempt to explain why I used those words, all I can say they were not meant to offend...

Perhaps it would be best if a mod removes this thread...Before it causes more unrest...

Metta Zenda

Quote from: Zenda on June 05, 2011, 06:21:57 PM
However if I'm wrong in stating that the vast majority of members here[at Susan's] in the long run wish to be seen and treated as the gender/sex opposite to their birth sex...then I can only apologise for making this assumption...

Hi Zenda,
Firstly talking about what the vast majority thinks, is that really the logic you want to use?    What the vast majority of people thinks means nothing to me based just on that, having 9 people say one thing doesn't make it more truthful than 1 person saying something else, both can equally be valid, or invalid to me.  Plus and very importantly the bigger the number ther greater the divergence, what appears similiar in fact has after a short chat are widely different opinions

Logic aside I think you're simply wrong in your assumption, and here's why:

I was born apparently male sexed (I assume XY), now after much revelation a combination of finding my sexuality (female) and a definable intersexed medical condition, what I have is a birth defect as my sexuality is female.  But everything appeared normal.  Just as the rest of the building blocks of my female gender was there at birth, but they couldn't see those things, were they there?  My gender isn't the opposte of my sex because my sex was never male.  It's my sex that needs changing to match my gender, not the other way round.  I'm the case where a Transsexual has a definable intersexed condition, but no intersex syndrome, I get spared the dysphoria of having what appears a male sex organ by the virtue of the size of my birth defect.

The truth is my gender (of which my later sexuality was was there also) was there at birth.  My sex was never what it appeared

Quote from: Lexia on June 05, 2011, 07:04:15 PM
Hi Zenda,
Firstly talking about what the vast majority thinks, is that really the logic you want to use?    What the vast majority of people thinks means nothing to me based just on that, having 9 people say one thing doesn't make it more truthful than 1 person saying something else, both can equally be valid, or invalid to me.  Plus and very importantly the bigger the number ther greater the divergence, what appears similiar in fact has after a short chat are widely different opinions

Logic aside I think you're simply wrong in your assumption, and here's why:

I was born apparently male sexed (I assume XY), now after much revelation a combination of finding my sexuality (female) and a definable intersexed medical condition, what I have is a birth defect as my sexuality is female.  But everything appeared normal.  Just as the rest of the building blocks of my female gender was there at birth, but they couldn't see those things, were they there?  My gender isn't the opposte of my sex because my sex was never male.  It's my sex that needs changing to match my gender, not the other way round.  I'm the case where a Transsexual has a definable intersexed condition, but no intersex syndrome, I get spared the dysphoria of having what appears a male sex organ by the virtue of the size of my birth defect.

The truth is my gender (of which my later sexuality was was there also) was there at birth.  My sex was never what it appeared

Kia Ora Lexia,

True...For all of the above......And nicely put...

Metta Zenda

Victims? After all the skrating, moaning, bitching and booing I see every time I wander into the TS sections of this site - that's a leg being pulled right there. Don't think I read anyone being a victim, I think I saw loads of people calmly explaining that your conception of the thing was a little skew-whiff, but there we go.

And Lexia  what was that about?

Quote from: Pica Pica on June 05, 2011, 07:13:52 PM
Victims? After all the skrating, moaning, bitching and booing I see every time I wander into the TS sections of this site - that's a leg being pulled right there. Don't think I read anyone being a victim, I think I saw loads of people calmly explaining that your conception of the thing was a little skew-whiff, but there we go.

And Lexia  what was that about?

Kia Ora Pica,

You have every right to think this...The "victims" comment BTW was not just meant for those who see themselves as "androgyn" ....It was a general statement....I'm not sexist nor sexless 

But I guess now someone's gonna make a big deal about this too-

At times it's bloody hard work being perfect... Now I know how god feels...  

Metta Zenda

Quote from: tekla on June 05, 2011, 06:32:03 PM
WOW!  Did you major in 'cop out'?  If not you missed your true calling.

And remember, how you react to that is up to you, not up to me.

Kia Ora Tekla,

  So as not to make you "feel"  left out   

Metta Zenda

Quote from: tekla on June 05, 2011, 06:57:33 PM
It's a bit much to be able to write it off as 'ignorance' or 'incompetence' so I'm going with the 3rd 'i' word, intentional.

I agree.....with a capitol I, it is apparently Intentional.

This thread should have been locked already.

Okay, enough is enough.

*click*

As a global mod, I'm allowed to post here after the thread is locked. So I just wanted to say a couple of things. First, I learned a LOT from this thread. Thank you. Second, although I thought the subject line was clever (I read a lot of speculative fiction and science fiction, and it sounded like a great story title), I clearly wasn't thinking about how it came across to the people being described. I don't think of androgynes and other non-binary folks as fencesitters and never have. But I need to practice more awareness, both on and off the site. Finally, I got a taste of what it might be like for cis people trying to talk to me--they don't really understand, they can't really understand--they can only try, and then they'll only get closer to understanding without quite getting there. Reading this thread has been humbling.