Hi all   

The following are some random thoughts/questions that I have been considering recently.

(1) Would you agree that FTM's generally have an easier time being accepted as males/men by the public?
(1a) Is this because men automatically think 'hell who wouldn't want to be male!!'?

(2) Do you think that women - except the radical feminists - are generally accepting of MTFs?   
(2a) Or do you think that this is largely an illusion as many women much prefer public agreement/friendship and private disagreement/dislike?

(3) Do you believe that it is non -transsexual men men who make public acceptance so difficult for mtfs?
(3a) Do you believe that men strongly oppose acceptance of mtfs because they believe that gender is immutable and that if a 'man' chooses to have 'his' penis and testicles surgically removed this might create a precedent and may lead in the future to forced castration and penectomy?   

(3b) Do you think that genetic male acceptance for mtfs could be achieved by convincing such men that we (mtf) where never male in the first place despite appearances?   How do you think that this might be achieved?

1: I don't really think so.  It is often easier for FTMs to be stealth, once they're on T long enough they pass without a problem, which isn't always possible for MTFs.  However it is not easy for anyone to be openly trans, as many people think that you can never be anything but the body you were born with.
1a: In my experience, males at birth are more critical of FTMs.  They see it as a "girl" trying to be like them, I guess.

2: I wouldn't know as much about this as I'm not MTF, but I can see it being a similar situation to the one I described above, just in reverse.

3: It's not just men.  The public in general has a hard time with the idea of someone changing their physical sex.  It's not something many would ever want to do, so the thought of someone else doing it just confuses them.
3a: Again, not just men who think this way.
3b: This is something trans activists have been trying to convince the public, which again means everyone, not just men, of.  Many people just don't get it, but we keep trying.

(1) Yes, ftm have an easier time because they could pass better in public on T. While only exceptionally feminine mtf or the younger ones have an easier time passing.
(1a) No, it's because they just pass better.  Men will assume you're a male if you look like a guy and act like one, and if you don't act like one then you'll be consider a gay guy I would think.

(2) No, women will generally think you're a freak, a ->-bleeped-<-, or a female. It's about the individual, but I think women and men are equally the same at this point in time about transsexual women.
(2a) i never knew there was an illusion.

(3) No, non-transsexual men do not affect if you transition or not.
(3a) No, I just think they don't want a man to be a woman. A man in a dress. Being tricked, fooled.

(3b) I don't see this happening until modern technology advances to a degree that we could all be passable. More liberalism too.

Quote from: Princess of Hearts on June 05, 2011, 04:37:40 PM
Hi all   

The following are some random thoughts/questions that I have been considering recently.

(1) Would you agree that FTM's generally have an easier time being accepted as males/men by the public? No, it all dependes on the individual
(1a) Is this because men automatically think 'hell who wouldn't want to be male!!'? Yes, several of my male frinds have expresed so

(2) Do you think that women - except the radical feminists - are generally accepting of MTFs? I do not know, but in my case all the females that know about me are ery accpeting   
(2a) Or do you think that this is largely an illusion as many women much prefer public agreement/friendship and private disagreement/dislike? If they do I do not care

(3) Do you believe that it is non -transsexual men men who make public acceptance so difficult for mtfs? No, I think is either the radical extremist relgious types or the ignorant red neck macho types
(3a) Do you believe that men strongly oppose acceptance of mtfs because they believe that gender is immutable and that if a 'man' chooses to have 'his' penis and testicles surgically removed this might create a precedent and may lead in the future to forced castration and penectomy?    Absoluty No

(3b) Do you think that genetic male acceptance for mtfs could be achieved by convincing such men that we (mtf) where never male in the first place despite appearances?   How do you think that this might be achieved? Education, education, education.

Kate D

Quote from: Princess of Hearts on June 05, 2011, 04:37:40 PM
(1) Would you agree that FTM's generally have an easier time being accepted as males/men by the public?

No, everyone is different.  Keep in mind that the public has more exposure to and acceptance of a wide range in gender expression in females than they do in males.  If I'm walking through the mall in a dress and heels, even if I didn't pass people would understand what I'm going for.  If a FTM walked through the same mall in a tshirt, jeans, and sneakers and didn't pass, there's a greater chance that he's going to be perceived as female.

Quote from: Princess of Hearts on June 05, 2011, 04:37:40 PM
(1a) Is this because men automatically think 'hell who wouldn't want to be male!!'?

I have no idea what men think.  Pretending like I do has only ever gotten me in trouble.

Quote from: Princess of Hearts on June 05, 2011, 04:37:40 PM
(2) Do you think that women - except the radical feminists - are generally accepting of MTFs?

Probably, but not necessarily.  I think age, attitude, and other factors influence a person's level of acceptance.  Some men are insecure and they express that through hate.  Some women who aren't even right-wing radical feminists still feel as though transsexual women are encroaching on their spaces.  For what it's worth, I've had better reactions from men than women overall.  None of my (straight, & cis) guy friends have reacted poorly, one has a hard time with the name and pronouns but even then we still talk and see each other from time to time, the rest of them all said something to the effect of "ok, yeah that explains a lot."  With the women I've come out to, only one has responded positively, and the person I thought would understand the most has stopped talking to me altogether.

Quote from: Princess of Hearts on June 05, 2011, 04:37:40 PM
(2a) Or do you think that this is largely an illusion as many women much prefer public agreement/friendship and private disagreement/dislike?

I think if it is an illusion you'll find out pretty quickly if you have any type of relationship with them.  If you tend to hang out with fake people, you'll probably see it more.  Yes, women tend to gossip about each other, but that doesn't mean they hate each other.

Quote from: Princess of Hearts on June 05, 2011, 04:37:40 PM
(3) Do you believe that it is non -transsexual men men who make public acceptance so difficult for mtfs?

Again, not necessarily.  I think some men feel social pressures to be hyper-masculine and they were raised with attitudes that it's the worst thing ever if they have any interest in anyone that could remotely be perceived as male.  I think religions that push pseudo-moral agendas are the true culprit...and I suppose most of those center around men, so there's that.

Quote from: Princess of Hearts on June 05, 2011, 04:37:40 PM
(3a) Do you believe that men strongly oppose acceptance of mtfs because they believe that gender is immutable and that if a 'man' chooses to have 'his' penis and testicles surgically removed this might create a precedent and may lead in the future to forced castration and penectomy?

I hope no real person actually feels that way.  I think that most people can't even begin to experience what it is to feel an internal conflict with their sex, gender, or body, so accepting something they can't approach understanding is very difficult for anyone of any gender.

Quote from: Princess of Hearts on June 05, 2011, 04:37:40 PM
(3b) Do you think that genetic male acceptance for mtfs could be achieved by convincing such men that we (mtf) where never male in the first place despite appearances?   How do you think that this might be achieved?

I know that was why one friend in particular has been so accepting.  Once I came out to him things clicked into place about why I was always how I was, we've become better friends now that he has the proper frame of reference to deal with me.  But, he was already very open minded, I haven't figured out how to open a closed mind yet.    maybe?

Hi POH, I'm sleepy and tired but I will answer this question.

Quote from: Princess of Hearts on June 05, 2011, 04:37:40 PM
(3a) Do you believe that men strongly oppose acceptance of mtfs because they believe that gender is immutable and that if a 'man' chooses to have 'his' penis and testicles surgically removed this might create a precedent and may lead in the future to forced castration and penectomy?

Anyone thinking like that has already castrated himself mentally through believing he is broken (by whomever).  Mind and spirit are where we are who we are, it's possible to live without your sexual organs, we did it for millenia!  But if you have a choice for a full life of course you take it, but the important part is the mind and spirit that is where we are who we are.  I'd explain this to anyone as I might not have done it justice

As to castration I'd have to have a penis in the first place to be castrated, like I told my GP (physician) after she asked, I told her it doesn't function as a penis, my sexuality is 100% female.  She confirmed the medical condition of micropenis, I laugh the thing I hid for years and came to terms with, was a physical proof of who I am.  If it had been detected at birth I might have been given SrS, but it functions fully as micropenis' do, is it a penis though, in my case no, in others yes.  Again the mind and spirit are where we are who we are.

I'm tired and actually alittle depressed due to having my condition confirmed just yesterday, I should have done it when I was 15-16 but then they might have hit me with Testerone *shudder*  Luckily I knew years leading up to puberty something was very different down there, haha

I think this will vary depending on location. Some place's culture  will be tolerant and supportive while others will be intolerant or hostile.
Personally here in a rural city in SouthEastern Australia I would answer as follows-
1.Yes, 1a. Somewhat, depending on the individual and circumstances at the time.
2.So far for me nothing but overwhelming support.  No reaction from any radical feminists as yet, however I may have disarmed any I have unknowingly met,  by indicating thatI feel I was a feminist before the modern form even appeared. (Advantage of age)
3. Again depending on the individual, it varies from acceptance, to incomprehension as to why you would give up all the percieved advantages of being male.  Also realisation that if you are prepared to do so there must be something in it.
3a. No, just incomprehension as to why you would give up the male privelege.
3b. Education, education and education, but in a low key non-threatening way.
Karen.

Quote from: Princess of Hearts on June 05, 2011, 04:37:40 PM
Hi all   

The following are some random thoughts/questions that I have been considering recently.

(1) Would you agree that FTM's generally have an easier time being accepted as males/men by the public?
(1a) Is this because men automatically think 'hell who wouldn't want to be male!!'?

(2) Do you think that women - except the radical feminists - are generally accepting of MTFs?   
(2a) Or do you think that this is largely an illusion as many women much prefer public agreement/friendship and private disagreement/dislike?

(3) Do you believe that it is non -transsexual men men who make public acceptance so difficult for mtfs?
(3a) Do you believe that men strongly oppose acceptance of mtfs because they believe that gender is immutable and that if a 'man' chooses to have 'his' penis and testicles surgically removed this might create a precedent and may lead in the future to forced castration and penectomy?   

(3b) Do you think that genetic male acceptance for mtfs could be achieved by convincing such men that we (mtf) where never male in the first place despite appearances?   How do you think that this might be achieved?

1. Hard to say, possibly.
1a. I doubt it, more likely it's to do with the greater acceptability of masculinity by females than vice versa.

2. I think less than any particular gender, it's more particular age groups that are best categories by acceptance. Younger people being more accepting.
2a. See above

3. Possibly but probably only marginally, see above.
3a. I don't think they think about it to nearly that degree. I think most people just don't tend to think about it full stop. It's foreign, and in that is off putting see above.

3b. Not needed, I think that mindset will slowly evolve out of our culture on its own.

Quote from: Princess of Hearts on June 05, 2011, 04:37:40 PM

(1) Would you agree that FTM's generally have an easier time being accepted as males/men by the public?

Yes, very much so.  They have an easier time passing and being stealth.  Men can wear any clothes to conceal figure flaws, and facial hair is pretty much a predominant gendering cue.  Nobody cares if a woman is in the men's room.  Men dressing as women is much more taboo than the reverse.

Quote from: Princess of Hearts on June 05, 2011, 04:37:40 PM
(1a) Is this because men automatically think 'hell who wouldn't want to be male!!'?

All men, and many women, think that.  So the math is against us.  And many men live a fake-macho personna as a matter of course, chuck-it-up and do things they don't want to do because they think it is their duty, and repress their real feelings.  So they don't have any sympathy for us not wanting to do that.  Men who have similar feelings and repress them, as well as men who would rather be women but wouldn't dare - hate us the most.  A transwoman challenges all their decisions and assumptions, whereas a transman validates them, and men love nothing better than external validation.  I think gay men are less accepting of transwomen than any other group, but gay men are generally accepting and supportive of transmen (though they are likely to be not sexually attracted to a man without a cock).

Quote from: Princess of Hearts on June 05, 2011, 04:37:40 PM
(2) Do you think that women - except the radical feminists - are generally accepting of MTFs?

Women are generally more accepting, and also less likely to show it openly, if they are not.  I think some lesbians are less accepting of us than feminists in general.  Lesbians are probably the only group that is less accepting of transmen, than transwomen.
 

Quote from: Princess of Hearts on June 05, 2011, 04:37:40 PM
(2a) Or do you think that this is largely an illusion as many women much prefer public agreement/friendship and private disagreement/dislike?

Women are generally much more accepting, especially femmy women who love accoutrements of being women.  Of course they understand why we want to wear makeup and pretty jewelry.  We validate their decisions.  However, those women  that oppose us, that don't see us as women - they can be totally false to your face and trash you behind your back.

Quote from: Princess of Hearts on June 05, 2011, 04:37:40 PM
(3) Do you believe that it is non -transsexual men men who make public acceptance so difficult for mtfs?

I think the problem is twofold, and it cuts across all demographics.

Problem One: Many people think this is about sex.  To them, me coming to work in a dress is the same as me coming in to work in a dog collar and diapers, claiming this is appropriate for me because I am a subbie and my mistress told me to go to work in a diaper.  They think that I am inappropriately dragging my bedroom fantasies into realtime, and intruding on their worldspace.  They would rather see a flasher, than me in a dress.  They think that I am using the ladies room for cheap thrills.  Some people think ->-bleeped-<- is a sexual deviation no different than pedophilia.  I know people who think pedophiles should be locked up, but ->-bleeped-<-s and ->-bleeped-<-s should be killed.  Even people who are openly supportive often are operating under the misconception that being trans is the same as being gay.

Problem Two: To quote the transwoman in Better Than Chocolate, I'm not a ->-bleeped-<-ing drag queen!  I hate ->-bleeped-<--Blackface.  I don't think anything does more to hold back the LGBT movement.  Priscilla Queen of the Desert has absolutely nothing to do with me, yet that is the image that the general public has of the whole trans continuum.  In fact I think that a drag queen is the opposite of a transwoman.  They hate women so much that they delight in satirizing, deriding and mocking women.

Quote from: Princess of Hearts on June 05, 2011, 04:37:40 PM
(3a) Do you believe that men strongly oppose acceptance of mtfs because they believe that gender is immutable and that if a 'man' chooses to have 'his' penis and testicles surgically removed this might create a precedent and may lead in the future to forced castration and penectomy? 

Men are not that deep.  Men think about sex all the time.  It's involuntary.  If a man is in a meeting for an hour, he will have thought about sex with every woman in the room.  When they catch themselves having sex thoughts about us, they are outraged.  They blame us for their thoughts, the same way they blame sluts for rape.  See Also: Slut March

Quote from: Princess of Hearts on June 05, 2011, 04:37:40 PM
(3b) Do you think that genetic male acceptance for mtfs could be achieved by convincing such men that we (mtf) where never male in the first place despite appearances?   How do you think that this might be achieved?

I think that is exactly the case with men that do accept me.  Either they have never thought of me as anything but a woman in the first place, or they knew me when I was younger and sensed then that there was something really, really different about me, compared to them.

I look at it in terms of two psychological elements that most people don't understand, or are unaware of how these things impact their behavior.  Gendering and Congitive-Dissonance.  Gendering is a subconscious process, by which the brain decides within the first couple seconds what gender someone else is.  Gendering is a survival instinct, of which we are as unaware as we are that our brain tells our heart when to beat.  Cognitive-Dissonance is a process that we, again subconsciously, use to resolve incongruity.  It's really complicated, but the essence of Cognitive-Dissonance Theory is that people dislike and avoid incongruity.

So, when somebody subconsciously genders me as male but is forced to affect that I am female, that creates Cognitive-Dissonce.  No matter how they resolve that incongruity, none of the options play well for me.

I hate to admit this, but there is a transman in my life, who my subconscious has gendered as female.  I have frequently used wrong gender references in his absence, though never in his presence.  It's like, when he is visually there, the preponderance of vision lets me see him as a man, and the male references come naturally.  But when I am conjuring him in my imagination to speak of him, that part of my brain thinks he is female.  So, I have to carefully and consciously use male references - or I won't.  One part of my brain sees him as male, and another part of my brain sees him as female.  Now, I am comfortable with incongruity - but it still bothers me alot, that I have to pay such close attention to this.  Nonetheless, I can imagine how people who are less comfortable with incongruity, I can make them crazy.  Suppose I get up at kareoke and sing "Private Dancer".  A straight man hears male, sees female; and the preponderance of vision gives him an erection - that's the guy who can't accept me the most.

(1) Would you agree that FTM's generally have an easier time being accepted as males/men by the public?

I would say it is definitely easier for them to pass. In public spaces that is as good as being accepted. but in terms of actual acceptance I don't think they have it any easier.

(1a) Is this because men automatically think 'hell who wouldn't want to be male!!'?

Actually I think this makes it harder. One of the big reasons that FTM's are often invisible in history and political debate is that everyone assumes that their gender issues are logical and based on wanting 'male privileges' so there actual gender identity is often denied. For example historical individuals who were born female but lived as men are written off as having done it for practical reasons where as examples of MTF's in history tend to stand out.

(2) Do you think that women - except the radical feminists - are generally accepting of MTFs?   

I think women are more receptive to talking about the issue. Women are more open to talking about emotions, and so are more likely to accept the idea that "I always felt like a woman" where as men don't value emotions as much so this argument often doesn't work with them. It's all individual and some men are very accepting and some women not but on a whole I've had better luck with women.

(2a) Or do you think that this is largely an illusion as many women much prefer public agreement/friendship and private disagreement/dislike?
No, both sexes do this in one way or another. A lot of the men I work with treat me well enough because it's a work relationship, but don't neccesarily want anything to do with me outside of work. so it cuts both ways.

(3) Do you believe that it is non -transsexual men men who make public acceptance so difficult for mtfs?

That's hard to say. I find most men are more physically oriented (as opposed to emotional, see above about women) so arguments based on how I felt growing up don't have as much traction with them. They also tend to see gender boundaries as a lot more solid, and are very uncomfortable with crossing them. this can work both ways. I have noticed that men tend to go to one extreme or another. Either they don't want to accept my transition at all, or they want to view me completely as a woman and never mention my previous life.

(3a) Do you believe that men strongly oppose acceptance of mtfs because they believe that gender is immutable and that if a 'man' chooses to have 'his' penis and testicles surgically removed this might create a precedent and may lead in the future to forced castration and penectomy?   

Castration anxiety is a huge factor for most men, and most men do not want to hear any of the details of SRS or anything like that. However I have never had anyone mention future castration as a reason for not accepting me. In fact one of the most common things I get told by men is that my willingness to have my penis removed proves to them I was never really a man.

(3b) Do you think that genetic male acceptance for mtfs could be achieved by convincing such men that we (mtf) where never male in the first place despite appearances?   How do you think that this might be achieved?

Like I have said more than once men tend to be more logical and physical. With women I emphasize my feelings growing up, my discomfort with men and male roles, how I perceive myself, etc. With men I tend to emphasize hard facts, like MRI studies. they perceive that as more real than feelings.

These are just my thoughts on the matter. I hope it helps.