From your personal experience, observation and/or knowledge (not supposition), do trans people who keep separated from the community integrate better into society?  Stealth people not included, because no one knows they are trans.

By "keep separated" I mean not forming new friends who are T, not attending T functions, not being a T activist and not even participating on T forums.  In other words, having about as much involvement in the T community as Betty Crocker.  To an extreme, it could be taken so far as to be a T opponent.

Do they have better jobs?  Are family and friends more apt to accept them?  Do they experience as much discrimination?  Overall, do they fare better in society?

Or is it just the luck of the draw?

Hi Julie,
I think it really depends on the person. Some people can, some people can't. I've know a few transpeople who were stealth for 20 years and with all the trans stuff in the media in the last five or so years, they open up a little more (this is real life, I would imagine online would be a lot safer for them probably). The space where they came out to me was a safe space and not really a social gathering or anything. The main theme they had was basically "I wish it would have been a little easier to transition or at least people knew what it was when I came out. My family left me, the only person that knows is my spouse." One said she came out to the senior center where she lived now and she was curious as to whether they knew before that. She said that older age kind of made everyone look the same anyway.

The thing with being stealth, I've noticed, is that sometimes people think they are stealth and that no one knows but it might be questionable. They seem to get what they want out of life by living in such a way that they think no one knows. I've always wondered what a fragile way of life that is. All it takes is one person to say something to them and the life they constructed over the past year or two might be thrown in this weird place.

I've always believed that each person has their own right to do whatever they want with their life as long as they aren't harming other people. No one is obligated to identify as trans or anything else or be like an activist or something. With that said, I think it takes a certain type of person to walk away from everything, every one, and construct a past that is different from what they lived. I certainly couldn't do it whether I transitioned at 13 or 36 (like I did). I guess the "successful integration" in your question would be the part that is in question.

I'm sure a lot of people with feel like "of course it's possible, I've been stealth for the last x amount of years and my ob/gyn doesn't even know!" and they'll tell you first hand how they feel about it. Of course by virtue of posting in a trans forum they are already kind of violating the whole stealth thing. Well, I think they are. Who knows, lol, I don't have the Stealth Rulebook next to me Meghan

Hey Julie and Meghan,

I, for all intents and purposes, am semi-stealth.  I don't go around with "Hi.  I am Trans" tee shirt, but I tell no one unless it is required.  I still pop in here, and on Facebook I post things I think should be shared.

But I am in school and no one knows.  I am "Sponge" to my classmates ( Don't ask.  Long Story ).   Everyone else who knows me IRL, knows me as Janet.

But if asked I will educate.  Thus semi-stealth.

As for those who successfully integrate into the world, do so but working at it.  I really don't think that it is the luck of the draw.  Their past is ...

I guess I am similar to Janet Lynn. Before I joined this forum the other day, I had absolutely no contact with anyone from our community for about 15 years. That is not counting the folks you run into at the doctor's office (who are complete strangers to me).

When I transitioned I kept just about my entire circle of family, friends and acquaintances (which I consider lucky). So all the "old" ones know about me because I told them myself. As for the "new" ones, people I met after I transitioned, I assume that many have been "briefed" by the ones who know. To some my appearance might make it very obvious. Some might not know. I don't know.

The bottom line is, the topic really never comes up. I agreed a policy with myself a long time ago: if someone asks me a direct question, I will give that person a direct answer, but I don't go around introducing myself as "Hi, my name is and I am trans". Only one person has ever asked me the "direct question". That was a colleague from the office where I work (he doesn't work for the company anymore). I suspect word got out to at least some people at the office that way, but it has never been a problem. I don't know if my boss knows or not and I don't anticipate a problem if he doesn't know and were to find out.

So do people separated from the community integrate better? Hard to say. Perhaps it comes down to what I have sometimes heard referred to as the "T-squared rule"? Or maybe it doesn't depend so much on your level of involvement with the community and is mostly luck of circumstances.

Good question. I find it difficult to answer.

Quote from: Janet Lynn on June 12, 2011, 10:54:14 AM
I am "Sponge" to my classmates ( Don't ask.  Long Story ).

Well now that you've brought it up it's too tempting not to ask.

OK.

I seem to pick up on a lot of the medical stuff.  So one of the girls said I was like a sponge.  And the nick name stuck.  I don't really mind.  In fact I went out and bought a pair of Sponge Bob earrings.  The girls cracked up.  "OMG Look at Sponge's earrings".

The question was supposed to exclude being stealth.  If you're stealth, in theory, no one knows.  So you're just like any other guy or girl out there.

What I'm talking about is people who transition, their birth gender is mostly known and they shun the T community. 

This question came to mind when I was writing a post to another thread.  I talked of Susan Stanton and remembered how she alienated herself from the community and did her best to distance herself from anything that has anything to do with transgender.  She even took some pot shots at us, like she was "one of them" and not even trans.  She eventually landed another city manager job and I think even for more money than the one she was fired from.  After she came out and her story went viral, she did everything to send the message, "I'm not like them" and so I wondered if that helped her land the new job.

From there I became curious how people who shun the T community fare in society compared to those who don't.

well, I have few trans friends, one non-transitioning FtM, another FtM I've met.   Know a few others and of course all my brothers and sisters here. But other then that my friends are non trans.  Pretty much all my friends know I'm trans an its a non issue.  Where I'm living now, I'm just that blond chic down the way.   I don't advertise I'm trans, but don't hide it either. 

I've not gone to a trans gathering in years well other then SF pride

Now a days its very hard to be stealth at work.  Background checks take care of that.  Still it was a non issue... mostly...

Beni.

Most of those that I know that fit your description left the community because they wanted to get away from all of the validation BS that suffocates it.  They were confident in who they were and didn't need anyone to tell them.  Their lives were easier once they left - the community, as much help as it can offer (especially at the beginning), brings with it is own form of stress and people have enough stress in their lives without taking on more.  So, generally, I'd say in each case (I'm thinking of 3 right now) they've been better off, have decent jobs as their transitioned sex, have fulfilling sexual relationships and never speak a word about the community unless I bring it up.

They are also incredibly lucky.  Some cannot help but to flee to the support of the community.  Passing privilege is just that - they are lucky enough to have it - most do not.  So perhaps they have better lives not because they left the community, but because others are more accepting of their decisions because they look more the part. :/

Who knows - need to conduct an experiment.

I am out to friends and family, but as I live in a regional city, there really isn't a T-community as such.  I know there are others around, but unless I go to the local once-a-month GLBTIQ night, at the one club that runs such, I never meet them.
Anyway I have reached the age and stage where I don't really care one way or the other whether I am read.  If people ask intelligently and politely I will help them understand  my transition and trans issues in general.  However I have more important things to do than worry about what the ignorant think.
Karen.

I've actually been worrying about the opposite.  We noticed in my FtM group that I'm the only one who doesn't hang out in a group of mostly LGBT people and isn't active in that community.  I was wondering if that put me at a disadvantage because they had a large group of supporters including other FtMs.  I hadn't thought about it as possibly being a good thing.  I can't imagine it has a particularly strong influence one way or the other though.

Hi Julie,

Not sure if my response is valid as I'm not yet FT, but damn close
I used to go to a trans club etc and go to dinner etc with the people. I think it initially helped. But after quite a short time I realised that I needed to be in the open community. So that is where I now socialise. Of course I'm here, but initially that was for answers, now a days it is because I have formed friendships that are important too me and I can occasionally help someone '

Hi Sponge

Hugs
Cindy

I was completely stealth for over a decade, with only my husband and my doctor knowing my medical background. When I transitioned (1974) stealth was expected, virtually required and by parental attitude, I lost everything and started over again. There wasn't much of a trans community back then and trans wasn't associated with the rest of the alphabet so there was virtually no community to leave. I visited the doctors at 'the gender centre' at the hospital that helped me find the care I needed for a few months just for follow-up and so they could see how much better my new life suited me and then disappeared.

I have to say that the first 10 years were wonderful and integration came easily and was complete. No one would have believed where I came from and I didn't care - I was a girl, no asterisk, no question about it, and I had no doubts.

Rumours of my medical background were leaked by a clinic worker some 10 years after transition and the rumours spread through my local community. I lost some 'friends' over it and I was aware some people's attitudes about me had changed but I didn't know what had happened (and therefore didn't respond). It was a year or so after the fact that my husband told me what had happened but it didn't change my attitude about myself or the way I lived my life.

Though it had nothing to do with being associated with 'the community' I certainly saw the difference in the way I was treated by many people who had heard the rumour and the difference was indeed very negative.

I don't associate with 'community' (except on-line) but my perceptions on the questions are:

QuoteDo they have better jobs?

I did not experience a job-effect but I am sure it would be a factor in being hired if the interviewer had any prejudice!

(In the job I held when the rumours came out overt discrimination of any kind is not tolerated. Subtle discrimination is impossible to measure so I really couldn't say yea or nay on that point.)

QuoteAre family and friends more apt to accept them?

I lost my family at transition so I wouldn't know. I lost a few friends and definitely experienced a major 'attitude shift' among others when the rumours went around so people 'knowing' had a negative effect. If I was open about my past I am sure he effect would have been even greater.

QuoteDo they experience as much discrimination?  Overall, do they fare better in society?

In my perception and experience a MtF who simply integrates as a woman and doesn't make trans a part of it will be more readily accepted - people eventually forget and grow to accept you as you are. I think most people are uncomfortable about trans and the more in-your-face a person is, the less they will be accepted and integrate into their chosen gender in mainstream society.

Just my perceptions from 37 years down the road ....

I've been mulling over this myself recently - because the few times I've attended any "trans women" groups, I've felt that apart from having transitioning in common, we had nothing else at all, and I felt quite alienated and marginalised (I was inevitably the only one not in a skirt). Probably because I'm a tomboy, I find I have a lot more in common with a lot of trans men I meet, in terms of similar interests and mindset. But in the end, I just want to get on with whoever I'm with at the time, and not filter my life.

After the initial frenzy of waking up to all this in myself, it's really important to me now that gender transition isn't the most important thing in my life, just one of many important things.

Julie and I were talking about this the other day.  I was telling her I wondered if employers who shunned trans people did so partly because they didn't want to get a reputation for hiring trans people.  They may see you as a good candidate but how would they prevent you from telling your "friends"?

Stanton openly shunned the community and even had some pretty phobic things to say about trans people, parroting the ignorant phobes who ousted her from her first job.  You would have thought she had no idea SHE was trans too.  After she landed her new job she was accused of discrimination regarding the handling of a gay friendly bar in her city.  It seems she was trying to be one of "them" through her prejudice and bigotry.  And maybe that worked.  It would be interesting to be a fly on the wall to hear how her bosses and co-workers talk about her.

Stanton is an extreme, acting clueless she is trans and taking a gay and transphobic attitude.  But as I thought about it, I remembered others I had met on forums who were isolated, not by choice, but by circumstances.  They seemed to fare pretty well in the workplace.  Of course the work you do can be a big factor.  I was in construction and I can't see any circumstances here where a trans person wouldn't suffer in the workplace.

I'm not going to transition but several people know that I'm trans. I'm out in public almost every day and have done activities that anyone else would do. I've dined in restaurants, shopped, paid my bills, all while being 'Gennee'. I'm involved with the T community and hope to be more involved. I can't stand around and do nothing while we are being oppressed.

Regading Susan Stanton, I felt she had a high and mighty attitude before she came out. She still has that attitude. I believe that she's in denial.

Gennee

I resigned from my job a few weeks before going full time, due to an old injury not coping at all well with recent changes to the layout and operation of the lab.  From speaking to old workmates since, I feel I would have had a pretty good transition-in-place, seeing as the staff were all  switched on medical people. 

I am aware that there are a lot of people here who have had a far worse time than I would have.  I would say, keep looking if you are not in a trans friendly place, they are out there, just not as common as we would wish.  As well, a positively trans-friendly workplace would tend to get rid of any predjudiced people due to their not fitting in too.

I am not better than anybody, I am not above another trans person. I consider myself one of you.

But I have to unfortunately admit that I pretend I'm not to my family. They are under the impression that people who are trans try to make themselves political statements and have everyone 'make special arrangements' for them. Which of course not all of us are, we just want to live our lives like normal people.

It has helped my family not be so weirded out by me. I never pressured them to call me anything other than my birth name, I told them I am not doing this for you, I am doing this for me so call me whatever. I found that that has helped them get over it and now they do call me he and Jay without me saying anything about it. I also never told them I was going on hormones they just figured it out. I guess you can say I never really came out to them I just transitioned.

That is the only reason I separate myself from other trans people with them because I find a lot get very angry at friends and family over things like pronouns and names when really it's not easy for family to deal with. They don't see what you see in yourself right away.

Although I have lived in stealth since moving to a new town last year, I am not in stealth whenever I visit my home towns.

But when I first moved here I had a job interview and the woman who interviewed me somehow knew about me (not sure how?). When I had a talk with her 6 months later into my job about needing surgery she hinted that she knew what it was about and knew all along and was very, very awesome about it. So I found I didn't have trouble getting a job over it.

Lets see..I have an interesting response for this I think. When I first came all the way out about this for the first time finally in 2007 I bought wig, dress, fake boobs, make up, and etc, and it sort of worked and I passed really well. I say kind of worked because I never actually really felt like"me" and that was overall a sh**tty feeling. I guess what it means to be 'stealth' is to pass...so I felt like people never even cared if I was trans, honestly I felt like it was obvious. So skip forward a couple years. I had switched back to a boy for a while and when I felt ready I said time to be a girl for reals now and never going back this time. Instead of a wig and dresses I just let my hair grow naturally and pants n tshirts typa deal- no make up. Well I never experienced so much discrimination in my f***ing life! People tell me Imma boy- I'll never be a girl, I'm a queer, I'm ugly, etc, etc, etc. You know what the worst part is none of it is true! If anything I'm a really cute boy and I'm just living my life how I feel comfortable and for some reason that has become everyone elses business.

The job I was at was at a womens store and I knew they thought I was gay or something but since I don't act gay even slightly they could never put their finger on it. When I transitioned they were like "O hell no!" I started getting harassed but not horribly I just decided on quitting. I can't imagine working as a welder they would probably try and hurt you! I was struggling looking for work bad. So I guess I'm not stealth anymore and you know what I am happy this way just fine. I got a boyfriend online and when we finally get together thats when I'll concentrate on passing better with dresses and makeup again....for now if I look too much like a boy-- I can't recall that as a crime? Facial hair is a nightmare, this year is the 1st time it began growing on me, plus short hair is no MtF best friend....

Last time I came out my dad was pretty cool with me and said he would try and accept me and we even talked frequently. This time he called me all kinds of f***ed up names and stalks me online to harass me on FB, Youtube, anywhere he can find me.

I'm the kind of girl that prefers not to associate with trans community. The reason why is when I came out I was forced to live in the community and the stuff I saw there was terrible. All tgirls were prostitutes, flamboyant gay bois, drug addicts, or had such masculine features I felt like it was not what I wanted for myself personally. I had several friends who were trans passable and non-passable. My Trans mom was a beautiful Black transwoman. Her body was straight Bangin! She was gone 20+ years on hormones and worked for a support group for trans people. Thing was no matter what her face was just man-ish. Big nose, big jaw line, her face was just not fem. Not ugly, just clockable. God she told me, "you may be a girl but you need to always be ready to get your twin brother John to come out if you need to stand up to someone." Her birthname was John...her real name was Sibelle.

I knew another girl who was 20+ something, she was gorgeous everything, had SRS, sounded passable, looked perfect- and she was miserable! Hated that she had SRS. She had all these problems from depression. She said lots of times people clock her some way some how they know. Her arms are longer and her collar bone is wider. I didn't see it but I guess they knew. She did not affiliate with the T community. She had a similar story when no one in her friend circle knew she was trans and she really had a crush on this boy and someone found out and told everybody and they never let her hang out again. You just never know you know. Her dad was rich and paid for her surgery when she was 17 and completely supported her transition but she felt like she was just too young at the time and said she had all kinds of sexuality issues like feeling attracted to women more than men since she had a vagina now.

I feel like I know so much since I was forced to be in the community since ever coming out. Whenever I can make it on my own I never go to groups or even have many friends much less trans or gay friends. I pretty much like straight people and I feel most comfortable living that way. But I know so much about safe sex, equal rights, beauty tips, clubs, dating, etc, etc because of being a part of the community. Now I am transitioning slowly and not caring about passing, my ultimate goal and dream is to live my life as a straight woman. Not really having any other relationships than my family, my boyfriends family, and whatever I have as my job in the future. What I have had to learn how to do so I do not hate people for hating me is to stop caring about if people think anything about me or not. They hate me AND hate lots of other things, they waste their time and energy hating me, they only hate me because they have enough time on their hands to even notice.

I got home the other day and ran in front of my mirror like I do often to see why everyone was calling me a guy and laughing at me. When I looked I saw nothing. Confusing as sh**. Sure I have the facial hair razor burn, kind of uneven body with small breasts, short hair, androgynous clothing, but I mean come on! Is that really horrible to treat me bad all day everywhere I go? No! But they do they treat me bad and I haven't even gotten started yet.

Quote from: Northern Jane on June 15, 2011, 04:40:31 AM
Just my perceptions from 37 years down the road ....

Thanks for sharing I enjoyed reading that. Somehow I can't get over how stupid people are, maybe one day I can understand. Why anyone would treat you different after they have known you as you? It has literally ZERO effect on anyones life and UH it just makes me so MAD!!

I have to try and figure it out because I just will never be able to feel better until I do. When the Nazis tried taking over Germany how is that being different that discriminating against a trans person? When the Mormons paid all that money to fight prop 8 in Cali say they did that so Black people couldn't get married?!? See what would happen to the Mormon church then! So they discriminate against a group of people they can take advantage of and how are they any better than what they believe is wrong? How can we change it???

I just want to know 1 where it came from and 2 where is the events that took place where trans people became so evil and committed these horrible acts people hate us so much for?!

Quote from: Da Monkey on June 16, 2011, 08:27:58 AM
I also never told them I was going on hormones they just figured it out. I guess you can say I never really came out to them I just transitioned.

That is the best way to do it. I often wish so bad that this is the way I came out.

I have two lives I live one at work and one at home. My neighbors and friends I have had over 5 years know about my transition and so I am not out in the sense that I talk about it but they know. Where I work no way, they do not know and I would be fired if they found out. They are not very open minded and are a very socially conservative company. It is difficult at times to keep my mouth shut when comments are made but then again I really don't want to lose my job or be out at work.I think there is no best of both worlds.
I am not too active in the T community any longer after my transition I have stepped away form my mens group and spend lesss time on this forum.
Myles