Quote from: cynthialee on June 15, 2011, 01:18:00 PMshared oppressors

^^
This.  So much of this.

To me, that's what it's all about.  I fight for drag queens not because I like drag queens, but because the exact same sexist system is using the exact same excuses for discriminating against them as me.

It doesn't matter whether you are a man in a dress, or whether you are perceived to be a man in a dress.  The discrimination is coming from the same sexist system.  The whole reason anyone has to socially transition to begin with is because of that system.  If it wasn't for sexism, SRS would just be another body modification.

I question why many transsexuals still support this system of sexism, when this system is the only reason they were ever discriminated against to begin with.

I question why many transsexuals still support this system of sexism,

Because they have just as much invested in it, if not more, than the oppressors.  As Pogo said: We have met the enemy, and it is us.

I am two-spirit myself so maybe I have a different view from many. I'm sure there are five things that LGB & T agree on. Yeah, T may be years behind but oppression is oppression. Here, the Stonewall Riots was a historical event but I can point out where it went astray. I will do that in a subsequent post.


Gennee

I don't see any of this as some sort of monolith, but more like Golden Gate Park with all sorts of different sections, terrains, events and activities.  You can't be everywhere at once, sometimes you don't even know what going on there on the other side of the hill, you like some of it more than other parts.

Quote from: cynthialee on June 15, 2011, 01:18:00 PM
The T belongs in the LGB because of shared oppressors and many transsexuals like me and a host of others volunteer time to the LGBT on a regular basis.
We are part of the political alliance that puts in a fair share of man hours.

Now if you can convince these T women and men to stop being part of their local LGBT you will have a tough row to hoe.
For many of us the local LGBT centers are the hub of socialization. The only calm port in a stormy sea of bigotry.

The T belongs in the alphabet soup because alot of us are doing our damndest to keep it in there.

I agree with you about this. I have always been a very big supporter of LGBT and the T being in the LGBT.

A lot of people say they dont wanna be part of the LGB because lesbians and gays are nasty to us.

Well, from my experience, I have had only wonderful experiences with lesbians and gays and we need to be careful not to stereotype people because we do not like it when others do it to us.

Quote from: Annah on June 21, 2011, 12:55:51 PM
I agree with you about this. I have always been a very big supporter of LGBT and the T being in the LGBT.

A lot of people say they dont wanna be part of the LGB because lesbians and gays are nasty to us.

Well, from my experience, I have had only wonderful experiences with lesbians and gays and we need to be careful not to stereotype people because we do not like it when others do it to us.

I agree with you Annah!

I got the honor and opportunity to start and coordinate an international joint statement against transgender pathologization and I am completely overwhelmed by the support it received within the LGBT community with more than thirty groups supporting it now.
For the first time the Danish trans- and LGBT organizations stand united not in support of gay rights, but in support of transgender rights.

My experience is one of support and acceptance too. I strongly believe in the idea of a big rainbow family.


Best wishes

So long as T people keep volunteering time and money to the LGBT then the T belongs there.

I wasn't forcibly conscripted into helping the LGBT. I went of my own volition.

As for why the T belongs there:
Transsexuals and transgenders violate societial norms for thier birth sex in the changing of said sex. Homosexuals violate societal norms for their birth sex in who they are having sex with.
In both cases societal norms regarding sex are being violated. The T binds the LGBT when you think of it.

From my angle it seems that some T people are upset that some other T people have decided to throw their support to the LGBT.

What I do with my spare saturdays has zero reflection on anyone else. To ask me to stop being part of the LGBT because of your comfort and beliefs are being violated completely ignores my comfort and beliefs.

No one group of T people own the T. If some of us wish to use our part of that T for a political cause....it is our right.
No one is coopting anyone else. No one is forcing anyone to do anything or believe anything.

Quote from: Valeriedances on June 25, 2011, 03:27:18 AM
If that is true then this can partly be a gay issue and we should just admit it. And if it is, drop the T and advocate for broader gay rights openly.

I still don't think it's a gay issue.  It's about stepping out of line and not living "appropriately" for what others think you should be, based on your perceived gender.

For gay men, that's sleeping with other guys, "an abomination".

For someone who has transitioned, or is trying to transition, that's supposedly going against how God created a man or women to be.

Quote from: Valeriedances on June 25, 2011, 03:27:18 AM
Looking at it from the other side, why do gay organizations advocate for trans people? Is it out of the kindness of their heart, or is there an agenda that totally negates straight peoples identity because many gay people enjoy expressing themselves in a gender variant way? If there is no agenda, why dont gay organization take up the cause for other groups?

I remember some of the first times I went out with my wife, when she did something to show she was part of an LGBT organization.  I remember thinking "OMG, people are going to think I'm gay."  In other words, they are going to think my identity is different than it is.  After all, some people, sadly, do mistake women for men, and that's going to be a lot more common when the woman is transitioning or post-transition, no matter how much work someone goes through to avoid that.  And, thus, their affectionate partner must obviously be gay in some people's eyes.  Showing support of the gay community is something gay people would do, so that would likely influence an observer's "guess" about her gender, maybe even swaying someone who might otherwise have considered her female.

I've since learned that some of this was my own homophobia.  I've also learned that my wife clearly had a stronger, more developed sense of who she is than I had at the time (she's not ignorant as to how identifying publicly would change people's perceptions of her).  I respect her a lot for that.

As for why the LGB community is willing to support T, they definitely haven't always been willing to do so - at least not some of their leaders (witness the first drafts of ENDA in the US).  But that doesn't mean history is completely lost.  A lot of it may have been who was on the front lines fighting the cops at Stonewall and why they were there together.  A lot of it was that "homosexual" applied just as much to the trans person as to gay person, when laws were enforced - they were the same category according to the law.  While we've grown as a society, an "T" doesn't equal "L or G" today, it used to, and the prejudiced groups still treat them the same.  The people being arrested during that time period for being "homosexuals" were often people wearing the wrong gender's clothing.  So the connection goes back at least that far, even if we know sexual orientation has nothing to do with gender.

That said, I don't think there is anything wrong with having T-only groups to focus on the issues that are unique to T people.  There are plenty of L groups, after all - clearly L's felt that LGBT groups weren't 100% representative of their needs on their own.

When I first came out I was very much oppossed to the T being in the LGB so I do understand the arguments. I just do not think they are as sound as I once did.

By all means if there are those of you who do not wish to be part of the LGBT, then do not volunteer there. Form a trans only group, but don't get mad at those of us who do wish to be part of the LGBT. We do have the right of self determination do we not?

Quote from: Slanan on June 25, 2011, 09:17:43 AM
I still don't think it's a gay issue.  It's about stepping out of line and not living "appropriately" for what others think you should be, based on your perceived gender.

For gay men, that's sleeping with other guys, "an abomination".

For someone who has transitioned, or is trying to transition, that's supposedly going against how God created a man or women to be.

This is why I'm so interested in gays and lesbians.  Well, mostly lesbians 

The arguments people use to discriminate against gays are essentially the same arguments they use to discriminate against us in our community.  It is essentially "God created X to do Y, and Y to do X."  For transsexuals the argument is "God created Y to be Y, and Y can't become X"

Both of these arguments are based on the idea of God (or some other force) creating women and men to BE a certain way, and that existing outside of that certain way is WRONG.  The only difference between us and gays in this respect is that the "certain way" that we are existing is different.  But since moralists don't like ANY of our certain ways, there's no point in trying to fight separately when we are all being beaten down by the same Morality Club (as I call it).  If soldiers are attacked on the battlefield, they have a much greater chance of surviving if they fight together and coordinate their firepower, rather than trying to individually take on their opponents.

Or, as a man who was an expert in hindsight once said:

QuoteFirst they came for the communists, and I didn't speak out because I wasn't a communist.  Then they came for the trade unionists, and I didn't speak out because I wasn't a trade unionist.  Then they came for the Jews, and I didn't speak out because I wasn't a Jew.  Then they came for me and there was no one left to speak out for me.

- Martin Niemoller (German pastor who was imprisoned by Nazis)

Quote from: cynthialee on June 25, 2011, 08:53:13 AM
No one group of T people own the T. If some of us wish to use our part of that T for a political cause....it is our right.
No one is coopting anyone else. No one is forcing anyone to do anything or believe anything.

then don't get pissed when some of us lobby against legislation that we do not believe accurately represents our past history or medical condition...

Today Sevan and I attended our IRL trans support group hosted at the local LGBT center.
There was no talk of separation and there was only support and comunity focus on anyones mind.

Quote from: cynthialee on June 26, 2011, 12:23:22 AM
Today Sevan and I attended our IRL trans support group hosted at the local LGBT center.
There was no talk of separation and there was only support and comunity focus on anyones mind.

Cythialee

I noticed this as well. When i meet up with LGBT face to face there doesn't seem to be an issue. LGBT are working in harmony and together we are getting a lot done.

It seems that all the arguments of not wanting to be part of the LGB spectrum or that LGB somehow hates us seem to originate and swim about the internet world because I haven't seen it in the real world.

For example, I work alongside the HRC. I do a lot of work for them as a transgender voice person. For me, it has been an experience of a lifetime. I have shared my transgender story to Al Franken, Joe Lieberman and a Delware Senator all in one day because Joe Solmonese was kind enough to invite me to his friend's house where they celebrated the "Don't Tell Don't Ask repeal party." Joe made sure of it that every single influential law maker in that house knew me and made sure that they sat down to hear my story. That house was so packed that day that Joe could have done whatever he wanted but he focused his time and energy in pushing for the transgender cause.

Online, you hear a LOTTA trans people bash HRC because of ENDA. But everysingle "real life" trans I met during Pride Parades, gatherings, etc where I represented HRC, i have heard nothing but wonderful comments from the trans community.

So there is a big difference on the internet versus the real world. I think a lot more civility is practiced in the real world because you are looking at you "opponent" eye to eye and a diplomatic solution is always better versus hiding behind a monitor.

The local LGBT staff got our group (newest incarnation) off the ground. Then the non trans folks turned the IRL support group over the the T people in the LGBT and steped back. There wasn't a single cisgender at todays meeting. Nothing but transfolks.
Right now Sevan is the group leader. (Comunications Co-ordinator) The group is being run for trans by trans. The only involvement of the cisgender LGB allies is to provide space and a voice.

One of the neat things that got brought up was that there doesn't seem to be much of a quid pro quo going on. The LGBT center is providing us space, a voice in the local rag, and I just found out that they have retained a therapist who can write HRT and SRS letters for the trans folks who opperates on a sliding scale.
We are giving them a T too hang on the LGB and occasionaly some man hours. So we are going to do our best as a group to try and give more time to the center.

Like I said before if you want to convince the trans folks at the local level, who do not even know there is a movement afoot to separate the T from the LGB, you will have a tough row to hoe.
The only people localy who were even aware of this movement were Sevan and I and a couple of women we talked about it with a few weeks ago. The attitude here in Spokane is unity.

I would opine that it is not at all unlikely that many of us who do not agree with a particular term currently being used nor see the need for the additional letter on the gay and lesbian umbrella are apt to be in the group who DO NOT go to 'support group' meetings.  Let's face reality- many of those of us who share the viewpoint I subscribe to tend to be post-op and have had life in order for many years.

I think the last one of those sorts of meetings I went to might have been in '97...

valerie, do you desire integration or assimilation?

I am not willing to loose myself in the process of transition. I nearly did so to the gatekeepers and I will not repeat that mistake. Giving up half of my life to hide what I went through is giving up half of myself. Surviving my past is a symbol of great strength - something I can be proud of. If the past is not accepted - not just because we ourselves chose a different path, but because we feel it is not accepted by our surroundings - it becomes instead a burden.

Quite a lot of research have found psychosocial function to correlate with openness. Of course this has nothing to do with you - I cannot and shall not make any statements in this regard - and what is right for one person may not be right for another. We obviously have each our own reasons for the choices we make.

while it is true that many tgirls after surgery will tend to go stealth, it is also true that just as many girls after surgery decides not too.

For me, i really do not have a desire to go stealth; which is fine and my own path. To be honest I have been blessed more being open transgender than stealth but again this is my own path.

Many people will think it would be crazy not to go stealth in my profession (religion) but I found that it opens more doors for me being an LGBT activist.

But everyone's journies are different.

Quote from: Valeriedances on June 26, 2011, 07:33:23 AM
Transsexual folks early in their transitions desiring integration with society need to consider this before blindly following what may be perceived as the easier, more supportive path to transition, and instead step out on your own and make your own way. We each have to ask ourselves, do we desire integration or not? Do we want an asterisk next to our gender or an "O"? What are your goals in life for yourself, your dreams?

Supporting the cause of the LGB community is honorable. Attaching T to it comes with a cost.

hear, hear 

I fit under the LGB umbrella precisely BECAUSE I am a lesbian.  If not for that, I would have little to do with them other than read the occasional news article simply because I would have as little interest in that as I would, say, domestic versus foreign wheat futures.  I would not be aligning with them politically simply by virtue of a birth defect/medical condition.   

I'm old enough that remember all the 'transgender' clamor that those of us who were essentially woodworked were 'harming' the 'cause' (whatever the eff the 'cause' might be).  There is still the overly vocal group that maintains that anyone who had their birth defect addressed via medical information should be public about who they are.  Did not agree with it back then and do not agree with it now. 

I agree with the united we stand part.
Here is where I am in the spectrum of LGBT. I was the L for over 20 years and now moved to the T but as a heterosexual male. I struggle to see where I fit in at this point. I know when I go to FTM meetings locally I am in the minority on many levels, if there are 20 people at the meeting 3 of us will be heterosexual males the rest bi or gay men. We all go out after the meetings and have a drink those of us that are the smaller group sit together and have discussed how do we fit in here. The fact that we are all also older, 40+, makes our issue difficult because we have all been part of the lesbian community for 20+ years and now we feel lost from what was our "home base".  I do not know how or if I fit in the community but I know that we need to be in the alphabet mix in order to move our rights forward.
Maybe it's not as much about fitting in in the end and more about moving forward?
Cheers Myles

Quote from: myles on June 26, 2011, 09:19:30 AM
I agree with the united we stand part.
Here is where I am in the spectrum of LGBT. I was the L for over 20 years and now moved to the T but as a heterosexual male. I struggle to see where I fit in at this point. I know when I go to FTM meetings locally I am in the minority on many levels, if there are 20 people at the meeting 3 of us will be heterosexual males the rest bi or gay men. We all go out after the meetings and have a drink those of us that are the smaller group sit together and have discussed how do we fit in here. The fact that we are all also older, 40+, makes our issue difficult because we have all been part of the lesbian community for 20+ years and now we feel lost from what was our "home base".  I do not know how or if I fit in the community but I know that we need to be in the alphabet mix in order to move our rights forward.
Maybe it's not as much about fitting in in the end and more about moving forward?
Cheers Myles

Exactly. It is about moving forward

To be T in LGBT is not a naughty word. I am somewhat in your boat with this. I only see good things having the T in LGBT because it promotes unity in spite of persecution.

We had a Sexuality class in my Graduate school last semester and a good portion was concerning transgender studies. Studies had shown (based on trans surveys and interviews) the following (which I found to be very interesting):

Around 80% of trans people have no issues with the LGBT spectrum
The majority of trans people who who do not want the T in LGBT are Male to Female Lesbians
The majority of trans people who are fine with the LGBT spectrum are Female to Male (all sexual identities and orientations)

The most passionate trans people who voice an opposition on transgender labels (such us "transgender vs transexual" etc etc) are Male to Female trans
Female to Male trans people, for the most part in the survey, really was not bothered by the labels.

The Majority of trans people who felt they were threatened or taken advantage of by the LGB were Male to Female Trans
Of those Male to Female Trans, it was inconclusive which sexual orientation felt threatened by the LGB.

I did a similiar survey on my facebook and my blog and the result were darn near identical.