there's nothing wrong with me. after finding reading about the androgyne gender, some pieces started to fall into their right places for me, and i realized that no matter what my body looks like, i'll always simply be me. my body is healthy, and thus shouldn't have to be changed. my mind is getting healthier too now that i've realized i am who i am, no matter if society wants to accept me or believe in non-binaries

even nature itself have shown that it doesn't have to be either or, by the occasional intersex person who is physically more or less of both sexes at the same time. so there should be no reason to assume the same can't be true when it comes to gender

society is what should change, not nature. i believe any variation in sex, gender, and the combination of those is part of nature, and should not have to be changed. a woman with a male body is still a woman if she says so, the same for any other case of ->-bleeped-<- or intersex. i wonder why modern society is so reluctant to accept this. in a shamanist society all would be asked to become shamans because they are cases that go beyond the usual binary either or

I used think it I would have done it back in the day.  That was until I had an experience where essentially I did switch genders for a little bit.  I remember everything but I wasn't me.  It was like I had some other [male] personality loaded onto my consciousness.  It made me really dysphoric about my female appearance so in a way it was a temporary "blue pill" albeit it happened a little late in the game.  I can say without speculation that changing genders would change who you are.  You'd be conscious the whole time and you'd be making all the decisions but they would be different from those you would otherwise have made.   

i'm sorry but i think thats alittle crazy and kind of insulting lol theres nothing wrong with my gender, i'm a woman simple as that and SRS's are to make the body match the mind and soul. and I think it would be more traumatic to do what you said , why would i want to change my personality/change what makes me...ME?! lol i would never change my brain because i like it makes me smart lol like i said i agree with others my gender is not the issue its my jibbly bits that pose a problem X3

Quote from: espo on May 08, 2011, 04:06:57 PM
I've noticed a lot of MtF say they want to become the woman they are  except they want to keep their penis which is incongruent to being a woman, but I get it I guess.

No. Having a penis or wanting a penis is unrelated to being a woman. At the same time, one might be assigned male at birth and have what is medically described as a "penis" yet identify it as a clitoris. This does not make the person less of a woman, nor less female.

QuoteSo if they could be gender reassigned that would suit them perfectly. Like they would be reassigned the male gender to match their body instead of being reassigned female to match their gender.

But they were already assigned male, and assigned "boy/man" so this doesn't really help.

QuoteGender reassignment would also benefit my fellow andros too, it might be a bit harder due to the plural-ousity :-)  of our gender though. But I think changing a gender would be less tramatic then changing sex. Or do you think that's crazy?

Um...lemme break it down a bit.

Gender is about identity, and presentation (but mostly identity). One could be man, woman, androgyne, agender, bigender, genderqueer, two-spirit, butch, fem(me), gender fluid, gender ->-bleeped-<-, etc.
Gender is also something that is assigned, typically based on genital configurement: when the doctor says "it's a boy" or "it's a girl."

Sex is also about identity: Female, male, intersex, sexqueer.
Sex is also something that is assigned typically based on genital configurement: when a birth certificate says male or female (I'm not sure if IS is put on birth certificates).

One can be assigned one sex, and identify their body as a different sex.
One can be assigned one gender, and identify themselves as a different gender.
Having genitals that are typically associated with being a penis does not mean you are male. Identifying with said genitals as being a penis does not make you a man.

Quote from: Sarah7 on June 16, 2011, 11:59:26 PMThanks Nygeel, you forced me to think it through a little more clearly.

*scratches head*
Uh...you're welcome...I think?

Quote from: Sarah7 on June 17, 2011, 12:14:49 AM
That was genuine if that's what you are wondering. You challenged the assumption that the original question was based on, forcing me to consider if with a narrower set of criteria my answer would remain the same. I.e. if sex and gender identity are held constant would I be willing to alter my brain to remove my dysphoria. It was useful, so I said thank you and posted my process in case anyone was curious about how the question could be reframed.

No, I was more confused about the why. LOL

Hello,

I cringe to disagree, but........it would be so much simpler, less expensive, and better all around.  You say that you having conflicting emotions and feelings, both physical and mental (and have had these life long). If gender reassignment would make that disappear, why not?  I hope that in the future, it will be further researched. 

Until your DNA matches your physical body.....you are still what you are!  There are research studies on this also.  As I am very "into" the research part of it...I look forward to the results.

Hypothetical question?  I have read some "trash", but I thought other articles were trash until about 13 years ago....which depicts terrorists groups "honing" in on the tg Market (for lack of a better term) in order to hide some of their activities.  Their take on it is....what a better way to go underground or "hide" than in another totally body.  We cannot let these "renegades" or whatever use this as a marketable strategy for evil and/or political gain.  I truly think that this is in part what is keeping legislation at the capital level in flux over this topic.

What do you think?  It is something to ponder....hmmmm??

Angel

i ended up pondering a bit more over this question

actually i don't have any much dysphoria in regards to my body. i used to feel shy and uncomfortable about it until i realized it's not a defining factor as to "who" i am, only my personality is. of course i some times wonder who the heck that woman in the mirror is supposed to be. she doesn't really fit the image in my head all the time, and many days i'd rather see something more of a man. i have more often than not imagined if there was a way to change the structure of my body as deep as the genetic level (how i wish the alien prince ki-el dogra wasn't just a manga/anime character, he knows how to do it). but i can live with it, just like i'd be able to live without an arm, or with six fingers on each hand

my only real problem is "society". not all of it, i have friends and acquaintances who never saw any other than my personality, and those are mostly fine. but there are those who are put off when i don't act as the "girl" they expect me to be, some (that would be my mom..) who do their best to try and make me act like the girl that i never was and stop me from "becoming someone else". i also have trouble responding when people treat me like a woman if i'm not in that mode, and figuring out how to explain that the other side of me also really exists. etc.


in short, i'm very happy about my own gender identity, and my body is not something i feel a need to change (though i'd really want to if i could). the pill i want isn't one for me, but one of enlightenment for those who are too afraid or biased to accept a different reality than their own

but i still understand this may be a bit different for other people

Quote from: espo on May 08, 2011, 04:06:57 PM
Do you think its possible for doctors to reassign gender like they reassign sex and if it WAS possible would you opt for that solution instead of the physical changes ....... if you had a choice.
I've noticed a lot of MtF say they want to become the woman they are  except they want to keep their penis which is incongruent to being a woman, but I get it I guess. So if they could be gender reassigned that would suit them perfectly. Like they would be reassigned the male gender to match their body instead of being reassigned female to match their gender.
Gender reassignment would also benefit my fellow andros too, it might be a bit harder due to the plural-ousity :-)  of our gender though. But I think changing a gender would be less tramatic then changing sex. Or do you think that's crazy?

In a heartbeat so long as it didn't mean losing any of my past experiences.  The idea of waking up tomorrow comfortable in my own body without the immense costs of transition is unparalleled.

Quote from: Wraith on May 08, 2011, 09:00:16 PM
This is how I see it: yes something went wrong when my brain was developing, as I must indeed have been meant to become a girl(as the brain only starts developing later during pregnancy), but the brain in itself is not defect. As it is, I have a male brain that is perfectly fine other than the fact that it doesn't match my body.

The brain is still who I am even if I am the result of an accident of nature. If it was changed it would no longer be me, it equals lobotomy to me, and I'd rather die.

I hate how people try to mess with the heads of perfectly healthy people just because they don't conform to their idea of how things should work and behave. What I'm frightened of (if it was possible to begin with) is the possibility of such a thing becoming a standard procedure rather than a voluntary choice. What you'd have next is people digging in the heads of homosexuals etc. to "correct" these things as well. And don't say people will notice such a thing is going against human rights, the masses would just accept it as the scientifically accepted practice and draw a sigh of relief to be rid of us.

Something is wrong with my brain, not my chromosomes (XY) that were gifted by my parents to determine what sex I should be.  XY tried to form a male, they did a great job except in some portion of my brain that controls gender identity.  That part of my brain is messed up, not my body.  Why would I want to go to all the effort to destroy/disfigure an otherwise healthy body when I could fix an unseen, relatively minor part of my brain?

Quote from: espo on May 08, 2011, 05:06:12 PM
You don't think reassigning a gender would be easier and less traumatic ? I don't know.

As today the gender idenity center is a "rice-size" nucleous deep in the brain. No technology exist today to make the female center into a male one. Transplantaion is not possilbe either.

So, for the time been we stock with chnging the external piping to mathc my brain. I for one do not wants to keep my "P." I do not heat it, we have soem good times, and it was of critical importance into bringign myt chi;ldren into existance.

Even if there was a magic pild, I would rather endure the pain of surgery than give up my femaleness.

Kate D

Ya, I was thinking more a 'snap-of-the-fingers' then a pill or a transplant LOL joking


But okay, the gender wins over the sex in most cases.
My line of thinking is along what Interalia said

I wouldn't mind taking such a pill if it was temporary just to understand how men feel about their gender.  A permanent version would be a loss of who I am as much as a pill that made me feel like a cat and want a cat's body, even assuming I kept all my intelligence and memories.  In fact, I honestly think that pill sounds less scary than losing my intrinsic gender identity forever (just provided it was a female cat's personality ).  Then again I'm a cat lover so I'm biased. 

Quote from: Maddie Secutura on May 08, 2011, 08:04:12 PM
I'd like to assume the cure, for sake of argument, would spare other parts of my personality. The whole point is to have a congruent body, right?  What if I could be happy with the one that my DNA said I should have?  I feel comfortable enough with my own feminity that I don't have to assert the fact that female is who I am.  But who I am didn't jive with what I was and that's where the problem lay.  It was making me hate my body.  If there were a way to make me not hate, and in fact like what I already had, why not consider it?  It's a little late now but were such a thing available you bet I'd have done it.

If two of your friends swapped bodies like in fiction, would you see the person as the body they inhabit?  Or the mind inside that body?

Quote from: Inanna on June 21, 2011, 08:31:09 PMIf two of your friends swapped bodies like in fiction, would you see the person as the body they inhabit?  Or the mind inside that body?

You would see their body as your own, as "self", and see "your" body as belonging to the other person.  There is an interesting article about a study concerning this and how it relates to gender, here:

http://www.ts-si.org/neuroscience/3636-identity-a-the-illusion-of-body-swap

Of course once our genitalia have been altered by surgery, the neural pathways corresponding to the old configuration shift to accommodate the new configuration, so that over time we forget what it was like to feel anything down there other than what we have now.  In effect then, surgery already does as much to change the brain as it does the body, and it does it without the risk of altering the core identity.

Quote from: Sarah7 on June 21, 2011, 10:26:30 PM
Actually that's arguably not true. The below study looked at "ghost limb" sensation for penises, comparing transsexuals and non-transsexuals. We may have an innate body image that matches more closely to a female body long before surgery. In fact that's one possible explanation for the dysphoria.

http://www.ingentaconnect.com/content/imp/jcs/2008/00000015/00000001/art00001?token=003e1852d91b15475c5f3b3b47462148553b447b2a6e7524404f58762f67c9

Interesting abstract, thanks.   Did you happen to read the entire article?  I had no phantom sensations at all, but instead a feeling of "rightness" after surgery that I never experienced prior.  What we undergo is not merely penectomy, but full vaginoplasty/clitoroplasty/labiaplasty as well.  We don't simply lose a penis, we gain a fully functional, feeling vagina in it's place.  It mentions phantom limb sensation of having a penis in men assigned female at birth, which lends credibility to the assertion mentioned in the abstract that our core gender-specific body image is already hardwired in our brains.

But I was more referring to my own experience of forgetting how the old configuration felt as all sensation in that area has been replaced by a quite different subjective experience.  All the neural feedback now comes from places that didn't exist before, rather than from the absence of a limb.  Far from feeling that my body has been "destroyed/disfigured" by surgery, I feel it is now correct for the first time in my life.  The best part is that nothing can ever change that.

Quote from: Sarah7 on June 21, 2011, 11:46:03 PMI'm about a year and a half away from surgery.

It'll go by before you know it!  Yeah I would like to read the whole study too.  (and I love e.e.cummings )

Quote from: Nygeel on June 16, 2011, 08:39:14 PM
One can be assigned one sex, and identify their body as a different sex.

Hang on.  If someone has an accurately formed typical male body, including male genitalia and hormones and everything, this person can identify as a female?

Also, I didn't want to say this at first, but there was way too much talk in this thread equating the "changing gender in your brain" scenario to getting a lobotomy.
Ok.  A lobotomy destroys the frontal lobes of your brain - which is the part of the brain known for separating humans from animals and is the center of all higher thinking processes.  Even if you didn't know that, you do know that the big controversy (and why most of us even know what a lobotomy is), was that people ended up like zombies after getting it done. 
So really, people?
You're comparing changing your gender to getting a lobotomy?? Gender isn't everything.  Its one aspect of you who are.  There's more to you than your gender.  Jesus.

Quote from: Juliet on June 22, 2011, 06:53:14 AM
Hang on.  If someone has an accurately formed typical male body, including male genitalia and hormones and everything, this person can identify as a female?

Yes. Consider trans people who for whatever reasons are unable to to do any physical transition. I know of at least one trans woman that identified her genitals as a clit and used female language for her body before she ever started hormones.

Quote from: Juliet on June 22, 2011, 07:52:44 AM
Also, I didn't want to say this at first, but there was way too much talk in this thread equating the "changing gender in your brain" scenario to getting a lobotomy.
Ok.  A lobotomy destroys the frontal lobes of your brain - which is the part of the brain known for separating humans from animals and is the center of all higher thinking processes.  Even if you didn't know that, you do know that the big controversy (and why most of us even know what a lobotomy is), was that people ended up like zombies after getting it done. 
So really, people?
You're comparing changing your gender to getting a lobotomy?? Gender isn't everything.  Its one aspect of you who are.  There's more to you than your gender.  Jesus.

While the gut reaction is to think the species divide is infinitely more important than the gender divide, consider how long male/female has been around in evolutionary history compared with how long humans have been around.  Biological sex has existed for hundreds of millions of years (evidence suggests over a billion), whereas the closest common ancestor between humans and other species (ie chimpanzees and bonobos) lived about 8 million years ago.  True modern humans have only been around for at most half a million years.

Thus, the case can be made that gender identity has been evolving for at least ten times longer than the time it took humans to diverge from other extant species (non-extinct species).

Now being reasonable, I'm not going to assert men and women are more different neurologically than humans and other species.  That's silly.  But the differences can't be simply waved off either.  It's intrinsically woven into who and what I am, and changing it would be a loss of myself.