Quote from: Forum Admin on June 13, 2011, 01:31:47 PM
It's different from switching from a male or gender-neutral mode to a female mode (I'm not saying you're doing that. I don't know you. But that's the impression we're getting from the OP and it seems like that's the impression your partner has).

I agree that it is her perception that I switch between male, neutral, and female modalities.  But that is because she was raised to a narrow set of behavioral expectations for females.  One thing I struggle with is to get her to realize that I am switching between female modalities, some of which are outside her unnaturally narrow view of appropriate female behavior in private.

Quote from: Sarah7 on June 13, 2011, 11:46:57 AM
I guess I don't really get it. Are you supposed to use a male name? A male voice? Male pronouns? Be introduced as "boyfriend"? It's one thing to be asked to change your dress. But being asked to pretend to be a guy? No way.

I think that is what she has in mind, and hasn't thought it through that well.  I think she wants to introduce me by my old name and everybody pretend they don't know I am transgender.  I don't think she realizes that the people who are going to be hostile are going to be hostile no matter how I present.  There would be all the same snickering and dirty looks, probably more openly.  Probably way more chance of actual violence.

Quote from: GinaDouglas on June 13, 2011, 12:39:37 PM
Or perhaps you are not observant enough to note the differences.  Or perhaps, unknown to you, there is something about you which prompts women to act different when you are around.

My point is that you are starting from wrong assumptions, and whatever logical chain you build from those wrong assumptions is invalid.  Subsitite cisgender woman for transwoman in your Rules of Presentation, and common sense should tell you that they are not valid, unless there is a double standard.

Let's try to steer clear of personal comments about each other. They don't really promote an atmosphere conducive to productive discussion.

I've seen my mother, sister, wife, etc use different voices and mannerisms when they are at home, but that is because in public they want to put forth the "perfect" attitude to make themselves look good.  At home they are still women but they don't need to impress anyone.

I don't call that a double standard, I call that being human.

But then I did the same thing, I would use a different voice and attitude when I was in public, usually more timid and trying not to be seen (when I was young).

Quote from: Sephirah on June 13, 2011, 01:54:05 PM
Let's try to steer clear of personal comments about each other. They don't really promote an atmosphere conducive to productive discussion.

Ann concluded that there must be a diety involved in keeping her from making similar observations to mine.  I simply pointed out two other possible explanations.  I was refuting her logic, and I am sorry if it sounded like a personal attack.

My old gender presentation and my new gender presentation are pretty much the same so I'm not really the best to answer this.

Hi Gina
Thank you for the reply. It certainly sounds like a very interesting and loving relationship. And I mean that sincerely. Given her background and upbringing is sounds as if she would be very afraid of losing you and the relationship if her family rejected you.
I think in those circumstances I would follow her wish. It sounds too beautiful a relationship to spoil. And hopefully in time she will accept you 24/7. 

Cindy

It's funny that I was just talking to my GF on the phone at her job.  She's talking to me in a voice that's deeper than my femme voice, with a flat intonation, when a coworker says something to her.  She answers the coworker in a feminine high-pitched, lilting voice - then goes right back to talking to me the way she had been.  Switch on, switch off.  Probably unconscious, didn't even think about it.

Sometimes I think we should just be in relationships with other trans-people, because cisgender people are blind to the vaguaries of gender.  I don't actually believe we should just be in relationships with other trans-people, it's just a way to look at things.

Quote from: Valeriedances on June 15, 2011, 11:55:49 AM
I would do just about anything for someone I love. If she asked, which she has, i would put her or another loved ones comfort ahead of mine, be it a child or partner.

I understand that position.  If I felt that way, I'd still be a closeted man, still married to my first wife.  If everybody felt that way, there would be maybe five transsexuals in the world.

I think you are right, but simplistic.  I would do just about anything for someone whom I love, and who loves me back.  And loving me back means loving me who I really am.  So, to my view, if she insists on this thing, she doesn't qualify as someone who loves me, the real me.

Quote from: JulieC. on June 13, 2011, 11:27:15 AM
I would give in and go gender neutral.  I am the "pleaser" type that usually likes to make everyone happy.  If it's important to her and you do present yourself that way at times then I think it is something you can do for her.  I'm also a little manipulative so I would probable use this opportunity  to get something in return.  Say being able to spend all of my home time being myself.  To me, neither request is unreasonable.  Let's face it all relationships are a series of compromises.

^ this haha, is how I would act XD, although I'm not sure I like the term manipulative.

It's one thing for significant others that understand and know our lives and situations. But it can be really hard for their family, to understand (especially if there are kids or people with um.. more conservative ideas). You are really pinning her into a position where she has to decide between being true to you or keeping appearances with her family.

It's just easier for her to ask the person she loves to just give in for this time because she trusts you more, instead of risking problems with her family.
A series of compromises.

Quote from: Fifou on June 17, 2011, 12:47:33 PM
It's just easier for her to ask the person she loves to just give in for this time because she trusts you more, instead of risking problems with her family.

I agree it would be easier for her.  I doubt it would really be just one time.

I don't see any way that going in gender-neutral could be viewed otherwise than an admission that there is something shameful about being a transwoman.  It's important that these people accept me as a woman, and I am not backsliding nor backing down from that.

If anyone is curious how this plays out, the BBQ is Sunday.  This last Sunday, for the second time, she gave me an ultimatum, go as a guy or we're through.  I said, "I told you last time, the answer to an ultimatum is always no."   As of now, it seems once again settled that she will go by herself to the BBQ, which has now been elevated to reunion status.

Wow that is quite a predicament. I know how you feel. Its like now that they said you can't be yourself now that you can be around you just want to show off being yourself more than you probably would if they hadn't tried to stop you. Another words by trying to put out a small flame they created an Inferno! 

YUP, I would wanna go decked out to just to be like, "oh my god, are you getting infected by my horrible style?!?"

But if they had just accepted you and then said will you go to this function as gender-neutral for _____ reason, then you might be easier to do it, or just decide to be that way on your own.

My mom use to hassle me about visiting telling me not to "dress" at her house. We were going over the "she" pronoun for several months and she always calls me "he" which is how I found this site here. I told her, "How am I supposed to be called 'she' if I can't dress like it when I see you?" I was not even in a dress or anything drastically feminine. One day I came over and I was in makeup, and girl clothes and she said, "I told you! Take those earrings off, that too feminine." Well the earrings had to be the least feminine thing I was wearing. I was pissed. My brother has tattoos on both arms and is barely 20. My sister is a prostitute and my other sister has tattoos and a one year old daughter all younger than I am. Yet she is tripping on me for earrings? It is just so juvenile.

I dated a transgirl once for almost a year. It was a horrible experience because she didn't want me to be trans. I was already out when we met and she liked me then changed....women! It was a bad relationship she use to hit me a lot. Obviously we were not right for each other but believe it or not it was very difficult to break up.  I cried for more than a year because I loved her so much and the same for her.

I say if you want things to go well with your gf work with her and go neutral to the event. She has her reasons and over time you can get her on your level. Otherwise if you would rather be happy as yourself then you should be the giving the ultimatum, not her.

Hey Gina,
You know, the thing with this question is that everyone's own situation is so varied they are going to apply all the little intricacies of their own situation to yours. Like my situation is different from yours so it would be hard to say "if I was in the EXACT position Gina was in, what would I do?" It sounds like you really might be at a life crossroad/transition crossroad/relationship crossroad, especially if she's giving ultimatums, albeit drunk ones. It really stinks having to make such a monumental decision about someone who is obviously so important in your life. I think what you said about her having issues being seen in public with you is what causes most transition relationships (through transition) not to make it. The partner isn't lesbian, is worried that others will judge her based on having trans gf, or stuff like that. Today is Saturday, tomorrow is the bbq, are you closer to making a decision about it? Keep us in the loop, I'm curious to see how you resolve this, Meghan

Meghan, you missed the date on my last post.  The BBQ was almost a month ago.

She went by herself.  I went to church, and during a happy song, I started crying.  Fortunately, my church friends are very supportive.  One of them, when I told him the situation, said, "I'm glad you are not there."  At Joys & Concerns, because many people were showing concern from a distance, I took the mike, but didn't stand to speak.  I said, "I have a joy, twisted to a concern, and halfway back to a joy.  Anne and I recently celebrated our one year anniversary of living together, but I am here by myself today because she is at a family reunion where I am not welcome.  It's good to have a place like this church to come to on days like these."

She came home quite elated and kinda drunk, saying things like, "That was the best time I have had in years," and "It was wonderful to be with my whole family in one place."  She can be kind of insensitive, and couldn't understand why these statements hurt my feelings.  Moreover, she was peeved that I spoke in church, and thought people would condemn her for going.  I told her that most everyone had expressed sympathy for her, to have her family putting her in that position, and her family offering her only conditional love.  Nonetheless, two weeks later, at Pridefest, a lesbian church-member gave her hell about it.  Then I got kicked out of the bar, at a Pridefest after party, for using the ladies room.  The bar was under new ownership, and the new owner didn't give a squat that the law in Colorado is explicit and unambiguous that gender-identity determines restroom use.  So this started Anne on a fresh round of encouraging me to de-transition.

I think the message she got from her family was, "If you leave him, we'll embrace you back with open arms."

To sum up, she thinks she drinks because my gender issues cause her all this emotional turmoil.  When she drinks, she hates that we can't have a normal life, and she gets verbally abusive.  Then she sobers up, and makes up.  But I am getting more and more alienated, especially from Bad Andi, a nickname her drinking personality had before we met.  I have not told her what I really think about her drinking, because it would be very hurtful.  What I say silently to myself is, "It doesn't surprise me that some of the men in your life have beat you.  What surprises me is that some of them didn't."

We love each other deeply.  We have tons in common.  But the long-term outlook is bleak.  If the drinking gets worse, I will leave her.  If the verbal abuse continues, I will leave her.

The backside of this is that, if we can't make it - it will be largely because of pressure from outside our relationship.  It makes me think that it's just useless to try to be in a relationship, period.

Again, I don't expect people to have answers for this mess.  I'm just throwing my data into the mix, to hopefully help other people think about their situations.

Ugh, I'm sorry for dredging up the past, Gina! I didn't mean to do that. You know, I'm glad you didn't go and I'm glad you are setting boundaries. You seem like too good of a person to let someone treat you that way!

It's not the past, and I needed to face up to it.  I'm glad you brought it back up.  And thanks for the compliment.